ok, as the secrecy is broken ...

[fairline]

Check out this site:

http://orzel1944.tripod.com/palha.html

You just need to use a brit para graphic with the polish para bde symbol (red not maroon)

[fairline]

Originally posted by jim panse

Maybe this looks like a polish para?!

posted as you were posting

Looks about right to me

[jim panse]

I want to have some feedback from you which units are well-choosen and which I should leave out.

Germans:

Widerstandsnest (Resistance Position)
German POW
Wehrmacht
Volksgrenadiere
Waffen SS
Panzerjäger (AT Soldiers armed w/Panzerfaust)
MG 42 Troop
Fallschirmjäger (Paratroopers)
PzKpfw II Ausf G (armored Recon Vehicle)
PzKpfw III Ausf L
SS PzKpfw V Panther
SS PzKpfw VI Tiger
SS PzKpfw VI Königstiger (Tiger II, King Tiger)
SS Panzergrenadiere
StuG III Ausf H
5cm PaK 35/36 (50mm AT Gun)
7,5cm PaK 40 (75mm AT Gun)
7,5cm IG 18 (75mm Infantry Support Gun)
SS SdKfz 7/2 FlaKwagen (single 37mm AA Gun mounted on a half-tracked vehicle)
SS Jagppanzer IV/70 (Tank Destroyer)
4x2cm FlaK
8,8cm FlaK/PaK
SdKfz 234/2 Puma
SdKfz 251/21
Ju-88A
Ju-87D StuKa
Me-262A-1a Schwalbe
Fw-190D
Bf-109G

Allies:

* Market
1st Parachute Division (UK)
82nd Airborne "All American"
101st Airborne "Screaming Eagles"
1st Polish Parachute Brigade
M8 75mm Pack Howitzer
Willys MB Ford 4x4 Jeep

*Garden
Infantry
PIAT Troop
6pdr AT Gun
17pdr AT Gun
M4A2 Sherman
Achilles Mk.IB (Tank Destroyer)
Sherman IVC Firefly
Mk.VIII Cromwell
M3A1 Halftrack Troop Carrier
25pdr Sexton GPO
Bren Universal Carrier
Daimler Mk.II Armored Car
M5A1 Honey

* Air Forces
Spitfire Mk.IX
P-51D Mustang
P-47D Thunderbolt
Hawker Typhoon (does anyone know the correct production number?)
B-24 Liberator


Still do be included:

Dutch Civilians
Small Boats (to get the airborne troops over the rivers)
What about a Glider???


Any other suggestions, ideas, etc.?

[GePap]

Leave out the Stuka and Me-262. Perhaps even the Ju-88. As was said before, german airpower did not really make a difference. Cut the number of german AT guns: i can't see why anyone would make the 50mm if you have panzerjeager and 75 mm guns to kill tanks with. Unless there were many pumas and other types of armored cars, why not keep it down to one type of german armored car? And do yu really need the PzIII L? What role in the scenrio does it fulfill that no other vehicle could?

I think the allies are fine. As for boats to have the paras cross roivers: where woudl they come from? built in a town during the fighting? created by events? Why not create places were troops could ford, beyond the major bridge areas?

[jim panse]

Thanks for these advices, GePap.

* I´ll leave the German bombers (Ju-88 and Ju-87 out) as well as the Me-262.

* I´ve included a Horsa Glider unit.

* I may give the Airborne troops a AT Gun as well. What do you think? (instead od the German 50mm AT Gun).

* Should I leave the PzKw III Ausf L out? I´m thinking about that fact.

* The boats would be event-created.


Could some of you graphics masters do me a favor? I would need an improved P-47D Thunderbolt (the best would be fairline or curtsibling style *hinthint* but I´d like to see this plane improved).

Thanks for now & keep the comments going!

[Case]

Instead of individual weapons types, have you considered making the units proper combat units? (ie combined-arms battalions). In my geekish wargamer mind making units individual weapons simply doesn't work at a map scale greater then one square/hex = 500m

The advantage of this approach is that you could have a more 'war-gamey' feel to the scenario & better represent the units involved on all sides.

If you stick with your current approach, leave the Bren carrier out: these were generally used as small tracked cargo trucks and not APCs per-se. Similarly, the Halftrack unit should be renamed motorised infantry (which is what the Brits called their handful of [excelent] halftrack mounted battalions).

[fairline]

To be even more wargamer geeky, if you do keep the individual units you need to make the following changes:

British armoured divisions in NW Europe used Sherman V and Sherman VC (firefly) exclusively - ie Sherman M4A4. The independent armoured brigades used mainly Sherman III (M4A2). The British always referred to them as 'Sherman V' etc and not the US designation.

Cromwells were only used by the 7th Armoured Division (the famous Desert Rats) and by the Armoured Recce Regiments of the other two armoured Divisions. The main variant was the Cromwell IV, with some Cromwell VII with improved armour. The Mk VI and VIII were the 95mm howitzer-armed versions which were used for close-support and were not gun-tanks.

Lastly, you have used my Stuart I (M3) graphic for a Stuart VI (M5). They looked quite a bit different.

If you use Case's idea of battalion-strength units then you need the following for a British Armoured Division:

Armoured Car Regt (Humber or Daimler)
Armoured Recce Regiment (Cromwell tanks)
3 Armoured Regiments (Sherman V and VC)
1 Motor Infantry Bn (M3 half-tracks)
3 Lorried Infantry Bns
1 RHA / RFA Regiment (Sextons)
1 RFA Regiment (25-pdr)
1 AT Regt (Achilles / 17-pdr)
1 Lt AA Regt (40 and 20mm AA)

Apologies to non-wargamer-geeks for knowing this useless stuff

[jim panse]

@ fairline, case: That´s what I wanted to hear . Thanks a lot!

@ fairline: (1)

1 RFA Regiment (25-pdr)

= Sextons???
(2)

1 Lt AA Regt (40 and 20mm AA)

= Crusader AA Tank or something else???
(3)

3 Lorried Infantry Bns

= lorried/carried by which vehicles???

Thanks in advance!

[fairline]

Originally posted by jim panse
@ fairline: (1) = Sextons???
(2) = Crusader AA Tank or something else???
(3) = lorried/carried by which vehicles???

Thanks in advance!

(1) Each armoured division had 1 towed artillery regiment (25-pdr towed by Quads, usually RFA) and 1 SP artillery Regt (Sexton 25-pdr SP, usually RHA). In the case of the Guards Armoured Division these were both RFA Regiments.

(2) Crusader AA tanks were only used by the AA-component of the individual armoured Regiments; these had been disbanded before the end of the Normandy campaign. The Divisional Lt AA Regt used mainly Bofors 40-mm, either towed or mounted on a Morris C9B truck.

(3) Lorried infantry were transported in lorries (!). They obviously foot on foot, however, so I would use an infantryman graphic for these, and M3 halftrack gfx for the Motor Bn.

[fairline]

If your interested, The equivalent for a British infantry division is as follows:

9 infantry Bns (in 3 Brigades)
1 Recce Regt (Humber/Daimler/universal carrier)
1 MG Bn (universal carrier with Vickers MG)
3 RFA Regts (towed 25-pdrs, or in the case of the 3rd Inf Div M7 Priest SP)
1 AT Regt (towed 6-pdrs)
1 Lt AA Regt (Bofors 40mm)
Divisional Engineers

[jim panse]

Thanks a lot Gareth, you saved my day!

One more thing to ask: Do you have a graphic of a Bofors 40mm AA Gun?

[fairline]

Might as well post a British Airborne Division equivalent as well:

1 AB Armoured Rece Regt (Tetrarch Lt tanks - armoured jeeps for Market-Garden)
1 Pathfinder Company
6 Para Bns in 2 Para Brigades
3 Glider infantry Bns in 1 Airlanding Brigade
1 Airlanding Light Regt RA (75mm Pack howitzer + jeeps)
1 Airlanding AT Regt RA (6-pdr AT + jeeps)
1 Airlanding AA Regt RA (20mm AA)
Airborne Royal Engineers

[jim panse]

@ fairline: Thank you very, very much for your informations, they are helping me a lot.

@ all: I´m editing the units right now following fairline´s list and OOB´s and I came that far till now:

The Garden component of the units will consist of the following units:
Infantry Bn
6pdr AT Regt
MG Bn (on Bren Universal Carriers)
Recce Regt (Daimler Arm. Car)
RFA Regt (25pdrs)
Lt AA Regt (Bofors 40mm AA Gun on Bedford Trucks)

Guards Armoured Division:
Lorried Infantry Bn (on Bedford trucks)
Sherman V Comp
Achilles AT Comp
Sherman VC Firefly Comp
Armored Car Regt (Daimler Arm. Car)
Mot. infantry Bn (M3 Halftrack Carriers)
RFA Regt (Sextons)
Arm. Recce Regt (Cromwells)
Lt AA Regt (same as above)

* I´m thinking about leaving out the M5A1 Light Tank. What do you think?

* Units will come later this day ...... stay tuned!

[jim panse]

1st row: Infantry Bn, RFA Regt (25pdr; I´m still searching a better graphic for that unit), 6pdr AT Regt, Lorried Infantry Bn, Sherman V;

2nd row: Achilles AT Comp, Sherman VC Comp, Arm. Car Regiment, Mot. Infantry Bn, RFA Regt (Sexton);

3rd row: MG Bn (Bren Carrier), Recce Regt, Arm. Recce Regt (Cromwell), Lt AA Regt (Bofors on Bedford Trucks), Lt AA Regt.

What do you think?

[techumseh]

Great units! Could you give us a bit of a description of the game concepts and mechanics? How will you simulate the threat of the Germans blowing bridges?

[fairline]

They look good Jim.

If I were to nitpick your unit names (and I usually do) then I'd suggest changing 'Comp' for the armoured regiments to 'Squadron'. British nomencalture for the Armoured Corps was:

UK: = US:
Troop = Platoon
Squadron = Company
Regiment = Battalion
Brigade = Regiment

Confusing, I know, but British and commonwealth cavalry and artillery 'regiments' are equivalent to US Battalions

BTW if you need to abbreviate to get the names to fit civ, then Sqn = squadron and Coy = company

[fairline]

You've got me into sad bstard wargamer mode here Jim. One more thing: there should be 2-3 times as many Sherman Vs as VC (each troop of 4 tanks had 1 firefly and 3 75mm Shermans in '44), so if you are using Squadrons rather than regiments as the civ scale for tank units then you should have 9 squadrons of shermans in the Gds Amd Division. Of these, 2-3 should be Fireflies and 6-7 75-mm Shermans.

While I'm going off on one, it's worth noting that the 17-pdr fitted to the firefly was a much better AT gun than either the 88 in the Tiger VIE or the Panther's 75, but wasn't as good with AP rounds as either these or the standard Sherman. You could simulate this by giving the fireflies the same attack (or slightly lower than) a standard Sherman but give them the pikeman bonus against movement =2 units. Obviously, defence-wise they need to be lower than the German tanks.

In answer to your question abi=out the Stuart light tanks: leave 'em out. The Yanks had separate light battalions intheir armd divisions whereas the Brits used them only for the recce platoons (not troops!) of each armoured regiment. By this stage of the war many of them had their turrets removed and fought as scout cars('Stuart Kangeroos') as their guns were ineffectual against most German armour

[jim panse]

That´s what I wanted to hear from you Gareth. Thanks a lot.

[Palaiologos]

Firefly better AT capabilities than the Tiger's 88m?
Strongly doubt it.

Let those Shermans take on some KVs and T-34s and we will see who has better AT gun.

[fairline]

You may doubt it Pericles, but it's true. Look what you've done now, you've made me move seamlessly from geeky wargamer to geeky engineer...

OK, lots of tests were done by the allies and Germans both during and after the war with AT guns and target vehicles. There are a lot of factors which effect the penetration ability of AT rounds, but for sake of argument the main ones are armour quality and slope from the trajectory of the round, ammunition type (ballistic properties and material of the 'cap'), the distance of the target from the gun and the muzzle velocity of the gun. Are you still awake there at the back?

Anyhow.. if you take a level playing field of a distance from gun to target of 1000m and an armour slope of 30° you get the following results for late war guns (if you're even slightly interested):

British:
17-pdr standard ammo-------120-130mm of armour
(apc or apcbc ) penetrated
17-pdr special ammo(apds)--190-230mm
77mm apcbc --------------------100-110mm
77mm apds----------------------150-160mm
6-pdr apcbc----------------------75-80mm
6-pdr apds-----------------------120-145mm
75mm apcbc---------------------60-65mm
75mm M61 ammo---------------75-90mm

The 17-pdr was fitted to the Firefly, the '77mm' to the Comet and the 75mm was used in Shermans, Churchills and Cromwells. As you can see, Firefly was pretty much twice as good as the standard Sherman.

I wonder if anyone's still reading this? Anyway:

Germans:
75mm L/70 std ammo-----------100-120mm
special ammo-------150mm
88mm L/56 std ammo-----------90-110mm
special ammo-------140mm
75mm L/48 std ammo-----------80-100mm

The 75 L/70 was the Panther gun, the 88 L/56 the Tiger VIE and the 75mm L/48 late-model Pz IVs and StuGs. A factor with the german guns was that the special ammo requires tungsten for the ballistic caps which was non-existent by late '44, so only the standard results apply.

The real monster guns were the JagdPanther (88 L/71) and JagdTiger (128mm) guns:

128mm L/55 std ammo---------145mm
special-------------245mm
88mm L/71 std ammo-----------140-160mm
special------------190mm

As for the Russians, they started the war with the best AT gun but by 1944 were left trailing with their 2 main guns, the 76.2 fitted to mid-war T-34s and the 85mm of the later KVs and T-34s (50mm and 100mm armour penetration respectively). The American 75mm was much the same as the British, their 76mm was comparable with the results of the 6-pdr and the 90mm of the Pershing was similar to the 17-pdr.

The only person sad enough to have read this far has to be FMK, if he's still out there

[Palaiologos]

But what is that special apds ammo for the Firefly?
It allows penetration almost as a Jagtiger.

How many milimeters(that is what mm stands for right? ) is the 17pdr?

i was never good with ammo types(or any other technical stuff for that matter).



And perhaps these numbers are good in theory but not on the field.

And anyway these numbers come from a brit.

[jim panse]

(1) 1 Unit is equivalent to 1 company
I´m planning to do this scenario with one company/squadron represented by one units.

Germany: 1. Fallschirm Armee - 60 units
II. SS Panzer Korps - 102 units

Allies: XVIII Airborne Corps (US) - 34 units
I Airborne Corps (UK) - 18 units
XXX Corps - 96

Attached you´ll find my OOB for both sides, Allies and Germans. Please note that this mus not be the last version. I also want to simulate the Allied superiority concerning combat strenght; therefore the Allied Squadrons of the XXX Corps will consist of two units instead of one unit for the germans.

(2) Gameplay
Totalling 162 german and 148 allied units so far. if you like I can post my OOB. The other elements of the 2nd British Army will be represented by a single not moveable unit to force the player to use its forces wise. Reinforcements will arrive via events/research and by meeting the objectives in time. I´m thinking to realise this combining elements of Nemo´s Second Front, FmK´s Stalingrad and curtsibling´s amazing Dictator scenarios.

The Germans will also receive reinforcements but this equipment and these troops won´t be crack troops as the 1st Parachute Army and the 2nd SS Panzer Korps.

Now I´ll have some sleep, Good night everybody!

[Palaiologos]

And the XXX corps, will it be controlled by the player?

[fairline]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
But what is that special apds ammo for the Firefly?
It allows penetration almost as a Jagtiger.

apds stands for 'armour piercing discarding sabot' or sabot for short. Modern AT rounds are derived from this Brit invention, but they are tipped with depleted Uranium rather than tungsten I won't bore you with the details of what sabot is but it effectively allows the round to travel much faster through the air. Every Firefly tank had 5 or 10 sabot rounds which they saved for Panthers and Tigers, allowing virtual certainty of a kill if they fired first and hit the target. Trouble was they were sat in a Sherman, so every round the Germans got on target was also a kill. The down-side of apds is it's slightly less accurate than non-discarding rounds

How many milimeters(that is what mm stands for right? ) is the 17pdr?

If you mean gun calibre, then 76.2mm (3 inches)

And perhaps these numbers are good in theory but not on the field.

What holds in theory also holds in the field, in this case. Obviously the ranges and apparent armour slope vary enormously in practice, but the 17-pdr was still a better anti-tank gun than the Panther or Tiger VIE guns. The Germans new it too, and would always fire on Fireflies first, leaving the ineffectual 75mm Shermans for later. The Firefly may have had the better gun, but on balance the Panther was a much better tank. It's gun was able to penetrate any Sherman at decent distances and its thick, well-sloped armour made it impervious to standard Shermans at anything above point blank range. Same holds for the Tiger, but more so in terms of it's side and rear armour.

And anyway these numbers come from a brit.

Shame on you I wouldn't let my nationality alter the facts

[Palaiologos]

Soooo that's what sabot is. I kept seeing it in front of me at all those wargames.

I have heard that Germans would target fireflies first, before, but never knew exactly why.

Now i know.
You learn something new everyday as the old proverb goes.

[fairline]

Jim, just read your OOB and I think the post about British UK unit nomenclature was confusing. This may clarify, giving the equivalents for tanks, infantry and artillery:

Tanks: Infantry: Artillery:

Brigade = Brigade = Brigade
Regiment = Battalion = Regiment
Squadron = Company = Battery
Troop = Platoon = Troop

Don't ask why it had to be this confusing, it's just a British thing, OK?

So, if you are using a scale of 1 civ unit = 1 (US) company, the equivalent british units are:

1 Company of infantry (4 rifle companies + support company in a battalion, 3 battalions in a Brigade)

1 Squadron of tanks (3 sqns in a regiment, 3 regiments in a brigade)

1 battery of artillery - this includes Achilles, AA, AT and RFA (4 batteries in a regiment, 2 regiments in a armoured division, 3 regiments in an infantry division)

[Palaiologos]

Originally posted by fairline
Shame on you I wouldn't let my nationality alter the facts

I would.

[fairline]

Jim, I've corrected the British part of your OOB:

[jim panse]

First of all: another big huge "Thanks a lot, Gareth!"

Now the part mentioned in the headline of this post:

In german (as well as austrian) army organisation it looks like this: Company < Battalion < Regiment. Each Battalion consists of 3-5 companies "normal" infantry and one sKompanie ("s" = schwer = heavy; => "heavy Company"). A sKompanie has more menpower than a "normal" company and more firepower too. Is this the equivalent to the British heavy weapons company? If yes, how do you think that kind of unit should be represented???

And something you wrote into the OOB:

(1) 1 Dutch Armoured Brigade "Princess Irene" (3 regiments/9 squadrons) - Cromwell
How I shoudl understand this? (And don´t tell me that Cromwell was the name of its commander )

(2) 1 AT Regiment (2 batteries of 17-pdr towed + 2 batteries Achillies)
2 batteries Achilles Tank Destroyer means 2 Squadrons, right?

(3) 1 Airlanding Lt Regt = 3 batteries
The Airlanding Artilley were M8 75mm Pack Howitzers I think?!

(4) And last but not least: Do you know if the US Airborne Divisions had also some heavy company?
I´ve got this: 3 companies = 1 battalion, 3 battalions = 1 regiment.

This gives me the following stats: Germans - 162 units, Allies - 136 units (Market) and 117 units (Garden).

Attached my updated and upgraded OOB.

[jim panse]

Something I found out just seconds ago:

At the website http://www.stormpages.com/garyjkennedy/index.htm [this is a fantastic page about battalion organisations during WW2!!!) I found out that a British Parachute Battalion consisted of 3 Rifle Companies and some platoons (AT, mortar, signals, etc.) but I haven´t found a heavy weapons company.

Now my question to you (fairline): Do you think I should leave the heavy weapons company for the 1st Parachute Division out?