Winning as Rome on a Huge World - Page 3

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 21, 2003, 17:11

I must admit that I have only once used Republic in a game of Civ3 or PTW. I am so accustomed to the severe unhappiness problems that Republic brought about in Civ2, that I am biased against it in Civ3. Also, I rarely have marketplaces built in all my cities by the time Republic is availible. And the medival age is such a good time to wage war, that that's when I do most of my warmongering.

But I am open to trying Republic... I guess I just need some pointers as to how to successfully wage war during this time, and how to keep happiness flowing to everyone too as my cities grow from size 6 to size 12. (this wouldn't be so much of an issue with a religious civ, for obvious reasons)

vmxa1 · February 21, 2003, 17:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Pretty much every new city I build pumps out a worker relatively soon (at the very beginning, it's warrior, worker. Later, further out when the city may only produce 1 shield for a bit, it may produce a few workers at 10 turns per). Just judging by vmxa1's comments, it would appear that you have a shortage of workers. Citizens should almost never have to work undeveloped tiles.

-Arrian

Amen to that. I have to remind myself if I am Rome that I need more workers than I normally would have. A nice Ind/C or R/ M civ can get by with less as they work so much faster. Anyway those far off cities are not going to be doing anything so great and may as well crank out a worker in 10 turns. If it is going to take 60 turns to get that temple, that worker can speed it up and pay for itself. Plus I want a road to fornt line cities ASAP unless they are in a dead end and can not be gotten over land, without coming trough my lands. I do not worry about any galleys that early.

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 21, 2003, 17:22

I'm just always worried about losing out culturally...

But I do agree, the more workers the better.

Arrian · February 21, 2003, 17:39

Lose culturally?

Methinks you may overestimate the cultural abilities of the AI. Besides, like vxma1 says, a worker first may actually speed the construction of the temple (and everything you build after that too).

Even when I play as China or Rome, I end up with, at worst, even culture with the best AI. Most of the time, I'm close to double. If I play Egypt, I blow them away - without really trying to. This is on Monarch. On Emperor, the AI keeps up a lot better culturally.

And I'm a raging warmonger. Temples, barracks, units, kill. Then lots and lots of building. Successful warmongering will get you more culture than peaceful building. Culture per city will be higher in the builder empire, but my empire will be double, triple, perhaps quadrupal the size of the builder empire, and will have more total culture. Culture is actually an issue me in a different sense: I hate cultural victories, but cannot help but fully develop my cities and refuse to sell improvements to slow my cultural accumulation. Thus, I often end up frantically racing for the SS to prevent a cultural victory by me. In my current Roman game, I've hit 80K culture and I'm flying upward, having just completed the Internet. Luckily, I'm already in the modern age and am at a 4 turns per tech pace (using 50% science... damn, commercial makes you rich!)

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 21, 2003, 17:46

Alright, well, here I am come with another "civilization simpleton" (CS) question: if you build a city that emanates no culture near one or more enemy cities that generate lots of culture, but your overall culture is greater than that of your enemies, will your puny city remain part of your civ, or is there threat of a switch?

Please don't mock me... I have lost cities before to culture flipping due to excessive REX. Nothing I can't deal with, but it's still a real pain in the arse when it happens.

ps, btw, feeling no shame with a cultural victory - after all, domination/conquest is pretty damn time-consuming on a huge map - I almost always win a cultural victory, ESPECIALLY as the Chinese. But yes, a lot of that comes from conquering my enemies. Yet, why does their culture remain prominent until they are utterly destroyed?

Arrian · February 21, 2003, 18:19

Oooh, a culture flipping question!

The culture flip formula is actually rather complex. The short answer to your question is that a far-flung city w/o culture is a risk to flip if it has cultured AI cities around it.

The long answer:

Factors that influence the flip chance:

1) Overall ratio of civ's culture
2) Which civ has more culture built up *in that city* (thus if you built it and have owned it since, they will have none. You will have the advantage in this category, or at least no disadvantage)
3) The number of tiles within the full city radius (the full radius citizens of the city could work if it your borders were wide enough) that are within the other civ's cultural borders. This is a big one.
4) The number of citizens in the city that are of the other nationality
5) Relative distance to your capitol versus theirs.
6) Rioting in the city doubles the flip chance, IIRC.

Thus, if you have a far-off city without culture, and the cultural borders of another civ are bumped up against your un-expanded borders around said city, and the AI civ's capitol is closer... there is a significant risk of flippage, even if you have overall better culture and the citizens are all yours.

One of the reasons I love early warfare is that hardly anyone has a chance to build up any serious culture. Flippage not a concern, really, and by wiping out other civs and taking their territory, I'm basically ensuring my cultural superiority.

-Arrian

Arrian · February 21, 2003, 18:24

Oh, missed that last question:

Culture points accumulated by a civ endure until the civ is destoyed utterly. If you knock them down to 1 city, their culture will basically cease to accumulate (except for their palace and any other cultural buildings they manage to put up in their 1 city), but whatever they had before sticks around (although if you raze all their other cities, I think you wreck their culture). Captured cities in which they had culture retain their old culture.

Say I capture Carthage early in the game. Maybe it has 500 culture in it (Carthaginian culture) at the time. That doesn't go away unless the Carthaginians are destroyed or I raze the city. Until I generate 500 culture points of my own culture in the city, Carthage has the cultural advantage, increasing the flip chance.

This is why, when you set the F8 screen to "culture" you will seen puny, mostly destroyed civs with a chunk of culture and all of a sudden it winks out of existence *poof* when someone

takes their last city.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 21, 2003, 18:26

Hmm. Well, perhaps I am too overzealous in my temple building. Still, never hurts, does it?

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 21, 2003, 18:30

Yes, that ever-remaining culture factor has driven me up the wall in a few games in the past. Life-like, though...

vmxa1 · February 21, 2003, 18:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Lose culturally?

Methinks you may overestimate the cultural abilities of the AI. Besides, like vxma1 says, a worker first may actually speed the construction of the temple (and everything you build after that too).

Culture is actually an issue me in a different sense: I hate cultural victories, but cannot help but fully develop my cities and refuse to sell improvements to slow my cultural accumulation. -Arrian

So true, you really can't lose culturally.
This is why I play dom/conq, I see no value to cultural wins and they come too soon. I don't like space either and the UN. I will either kill them all off, play to 2050 or stop when I have had enough and the game is a lock.

I should add that I prefer to play on std maps so it is not quite such a task as this huge map.
I would only play huge if I want to run up a good score and then I would turn off Dom.

vmxa1 · February 21, 2003, 18:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Hmm. Well, perhaps I am too overzealous in my temple building. Still, never hurts, does it?

I do not think you are over zealous. I will build temples every where, just not the first thing, unless I am up next to another civs and they have a good size city that is connected. That is a threat to roll on me.
This is not very common, since I am republic, I can rush buy that temple if I am concerned. If that is a civ that I am at war with I will smash that city or cut off its roads.
The reason they seem to have a high culture after you are hurting them, is those old temples and wonders are still adding and the graph is an average. This means to see a lower on the graph, will take a long time, especally late in the game. 5000 years of accumulation and now add 10 years of lower values is not going to show up real fast. That is why baseball players have a hard time raising their avg late in the seaon, if it is at say 300. 2 for 4 looks good, but add it to 600 ab and it has a small impact.

Chemical Ollie · February 21, 2003, 22:16

I would love that... now I have only 172 spams left to write....

Arrian · February 22, 2003, 00:39

vxma1,

The aforementioned Roman game ended. I actually thought I might win culturally, but upon hitting 100k, the Ottomans must have scraped together 50k, so I was able to play the 3 extra turns I needed to get the SS completed. I was glad they did.

I noticed something, watching the replay: my initial attack started REALLY late. Normally, I open up my ancient warfare in earnest around 500bc, give or take a couple of centuries. But my attack in this game started around 250AD! Wow. Granted, my initial attack force was large, but still, that's late. No wonder I encountered pikemen & med. inf when I hit the Vikings. I lost a LOT of horsemen because of that. The Romans are just slow getting going. But if you do manage to get them going... yeesh. My mid-to-late-game power was ridiculous.

To get back on-topic, the problem with Rome is, with a slow-starting civ with a 1-move UU, a huge world presents serious problems. It's just not a very good match of civ and map settings, with the exception of commercial (good for large maps).

-Arrian

vmxa1 · February 22, 2003, 02:43

Amen to that Arrian. I cranked out two games on huge as Rome and it sucked. It took so long to get rolling. As you say once I did it was nasty for them. A huge map is not good for a non ind civ. I also had crap luck wiht the Mil trait for promos and leaders.

yxhuvud · February 22, 2003, 10:09

There is one situation where you can lose to culture win.

Deity, it's called. There every ai will outculture you once their rexing phase is over, and since the tech race goes so fast, tehy start building cathedrals really early. Sure, as long as there are several big ai's, this won't be a problem, but if one civ manage to be big enough, it can get ahead enough to be able to win.

vmxa1 · February 22, 2003, 14:54

I won't go so far as to say it can never happen, but I would think that you would have much bigger problems than culture if it were to happen. I have never been in any danger of it on any level.
The point is you do not have lay awake sweating culture defeats.

Master Zen · February 23, 2003, 00:54

Culture flipping...

in my latest game I founded a city about 2 squares from an enemy city with a 2-tile border.

About 4 turns later, it flipped! I rolled back to the previous save (seed was ON so there was no way to avoid the flip) and rushed a Temple. Since the flips occur AFTER you build your units, building the temple actually avoided the flip!

At least for a while... about 20 turns later the AI city eventually got a 3 tile border shortly after my city flipped anyway. Got it back thru war though

vmxa1 · February 23, 2003, 03:03

Yes that is a sad tale, but city flipping does occur, we were only talking about losing the game via cultural victory by the AI. That is what I was saying is not worth worring about.

Master Zen · February 23, 2003, 03:17

An AI cultural victory is something that has never happened in any of my games at any difficulty level. I think Firaxis only put it in the game as another option for players as a way to win, not as a way to lose.

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 24, 2003, 10:58

To get back to Rome...

I really must learn to win some victory as Rome on a huge world. Yes, Huge and Rome do not a perfect match make. But hence the challenge.

A little update...

1. Expanding Rome.SAV is going very well... cities flipping to me, fought a "false war" with Japan and extracted two cities from them, building most of the significant wonders... but overseas, the Germans, of all civs, build Leo's Workshop before me. As I am accustomed to building EVERY significant, not-one-city medival wonder, I found this so galling that I quit. Sure, I could still win, but what a pain in the youknowwhere.

2. I have started a new game, surrounded by enemies and rich in resources. I was attacked by America, build up my legionaries and attacked them... took 2 cities, got peace from them and all but 2 of the 8 other civs they got to attack me (Military Alliance v. Americans never seemed to be an option for me in diplomacy

), and I have a huge military force poised to take a few Korean cities and end that war. Furthermore, I have the GL and am "caught up" on techs, with 16 turns to go (well in advance of my foes) to build the HG.

But I'm still a despotism, have 500+ gold and an 11 gold per turn deficit, and Feudalism is going to take me 22 turns to get. Furthermore, though ALL my cities have barracks this time, only about half have temples and none have anything more than that.

I can bring down Korea, and maybe take on nearby China with it's grapes, but will this cost me the game? Will someone else build Sun Tzu's, Sistine, etc?

In other words, WHAT THE HELL DO I DO NOW?

A few other broad-based Rome questions:

1. I know few of you play Rome on a huge world, and I know why. Nonetheless, how many cities do you typically build before you stop? 5? 10? Quel nombre?

2. When do you build barracks? After there's one defensive unit in the city? As soon as you meet a neighbor? When?

Please, people, let's make this happen. Help turn poor little Yahweh into a proper Roman empire-builder, on a huge map.

Arrian · February 24, 2003, 11:42

Quote:

In other words, WHAT THE HELL DO I DO NOW?

The single most important thing is setting up a good Palace/FP axis. The idea is to conquer the entire continent and use a Great Leader to rush the FP (or move your palace, having built the FP manually). But you don't have to have the ideal.

The second most important thing is to get the hell out of despotism.

Quote:

how many cities do you typically build before you stop? 5? 10? Quel nombre?

2. When do you build barracks? After there's one defensive unit in the city? As soon as you meet a neighbor? When?

1. On a standard map 10-12. So I'd say 15-20 on a huge map.

2. I tend to get my expansion out of the way first. So in the beginning it's warriors, workers and settlers, with the occasional spearman to ward off barbs. Then, once I'm nearing the end of my expansion phase, it's barracks everywhere and troops.

Have you tried going "builder" until Cavalry yet? That really may work better on your chosen map settings.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 24, 2003, 12:01

Arrian, my proclivity in Civ in general is to go builder, and normally I have no problem doing so. In fact, I can do a good job REXing as the Romans - 15-20 cities is what I'd like to be building. But generally, by that point, there's some bastard cocky enough to start a war with me, which puts my expansion on hold.

I guess I hadn't really thought about waiting until Cavalry - that seems so late.

As for the FP placement... I >do< like to place it smack in the middle of the continent, or rather, it and palace in the center of the western/northern and eastern/southern half of my continental empire. But if I'm waiting for Cavalry, certainly I'll want to build my FP before that. And then I have to build it much closer to my Palace than I'd like. Would you recommend building it in a city near to my capital, and then moving my palace manually later?

Another question - how do I address gaining techs during this period of expansion? I can't seem to buy them except at ridiculously huge prices...

Also, what proportion of workers do your build in relation to the amount of cities? One per city? Two? And what do you do with each worker? Build roads only? Have one build roads and another work on the city?

Keep it coming, guys and gals.

Arrian · February 24, 2003, 12:20

Re: workers...

With a non-industrial civ... probably something like 1.5 per city.

Mines and Roads. Get your production up, connect your cities. Irrigate when it makes sense for growth (growth is good, fear not the luxury spending slider). Later on, chopping forest will help you build those 60-shield temples.

Re: tech trading...

The key is to research along a different path than they do, and trade. The Monarchy route will often provide excellent trading opportunities (the AI will pay lots for Polytheism & Monarchy). Remember: only trade on YOUR turn, so you can trade with all AIs at once and maximize your profits.

Early harrassment can help. Hitting a settler team early on, or even just ripping up their roads & stealing a worker will harm the AI. When they will accept your envoy again, you should be able to get at least 1 tech on the cheap (if they would normally charge you 100gold for it, they probably are asking for 50 now).

Clearly, if going the "wait for Cavalry" route, the GL would be a good idea.

Re: FP for the "builder." The builder must accept a FP closer to home, it's true. Maybe you move your palace later, maybe you don't... it depends on the geography.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 24, 2003, 12:28

I must say, I have started using the harrasment strategy to great effect, as well as building an archer right off the bat and taking Thebes, Sparta, etc., an act which leaves my little friends quite crippled. Sometimes I take it too far and get bogged down in unnecessarily long wars, but I'm developing the right balance, I think.

So, head for Polytheism before even Iron Working, then?

Arrian · February 24, 2003, 12:52

No, IW is a "must have" tech.

As Rome, you start with the alphabet & warrior code. I usually trade those (which are worth quite a bit) for other start techs, like bronze working, pottery, ceremonial burial. Hence, I often don't research BW myself - I expect to trade for it. Therefore, my first research is The Wheel. Having gotten BW via trade, I will then research IW. The Wheel can be traded for other things. Upon securing IW, I will go up the Monarchy path. HBR will come in one of the trades for Polytheism.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 24, 2003, 12:59

Hmm, I see. Very good. Any other tech suggestions?

Arrian · February 24, 2003, 13:06

If you are in a position to broker masonry (not usually the case as Rome, but when playing an industrial civ...), do so. Even if you don't get much for it. You WANT your neighbor to build the Pyramids. Then you want to take it from them.

The only other tip I can think of right now is to check your contacts pretty much every turn - otherwise you may miss out on a good deal.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 25, 2003, 13:54

Well, I'm finally on track with Rome!

REXed agressively, and now have about 20 cities, all Roman (i.e., no flips to me

, which I normally get). Rich land, with 3 luxuries, iron, and horsies.

Followed your advice, Arrian: Went for Iron Working, then beelined to Monarchy. Sold Alphabet along the way quite profitably (got two techs from the Babylonians alone).

Got involved in the GL race and lost out by just a few turns, but had Monarchy, and hence switched to the HG and built it, ensuring happiness for some time.

Felt no shame in using my whole treasury to buy one advance, no matter how stupid... Code of Laws, for example. Constantly speaking to my neighbors kept me on good terms with all of them.

By the time the medival era rolled around, after I switched to Monarchy (I intend to wage war), I had a very slight tech edge, or at least parity. True, the Carths and a few others got Monotheism first, but I got Feudalism before them.

And then, God bless them, those "polite" Greeks came out of the North and attacked me with a few horsemen. I saw them coming, and I know those Greeks, so I switched my border city from Library to Legionary, attacked their weakened horseman, and boom! Golden Age.

So now, as I build Sun Tzu's, I'm in a position to get the jump on Leo's Workshop, Sistine, and JS Bach's before any of my competitors. My culture is behind, due to my REXing, but I'm using the GA to crank out temples, libraries, markplaces, aqueducts and cathedrals to change that disparity.

The Greeks are so far away that, by having my many allies attack them for me, I will eventually be able to extract a tech (maybe Chivalry?) or a huge chunk of change from them...

So all I have to say is: FINALLY!!!

But this leads me to the NEXT stage... how to make sure I don't blow my lead!

I'll bring in a .SAV for you guys to look at, if you would kind enough to do so. My main question is now: develop and wait for military trad, or take on a few of my nearest neighbors (most likely Babylon and Egypt, maybe India) with Knights?

Anyhow, keep the flame alive... the unholy flame of bloody conquest, that is... and keep the advice coming, everyone... thanks for all the advice so far!

Long Live Severus!

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 26, 2003, 11:18

Hmmm, have people lost interest in this thread?

Well, never mind. It's time to discuss...

How to overcome parity in the medival era

I plan to start a whole new thread about this for everyone to talk about, but for now, let's stick to Rome.

I have included my lastest .SAV so you guys can see the boat I'm in. I'm ahead of almost everyone in terms of tech, and I even managed to buy Chivalry from the Indians. Sun Tzu's is mine, Sistine is mine.

The rest of the world decided to wipe out Egypt, and I got involved just in time to grab Thebes. The Carthaginians, damn them, got the rest of Egypt.

THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH IS A RANT:

I know the book says "agression level 4" for Carthage, but it seems like agression level 6 to me. They always take over at least one huge neighbor. Their UU is insanely powerful, when combined with their traits in particular. The real Carthage was not that industrious. Why is this one? I hate Carthage more than any other civ in the game, no matter whom I play as. They are generally more advanced in tech and break treaties constantly. Damn them! Damn them!

RANT CONCLUDED. BACK TO TOPIC:

So I'm currently a few turns from banking, and then I'm thinking about bee-lining for Military Tradition, to begin my cavalry wars.

But will I be strong enough to wage them? Will a coalition of Carthage, China and others come and cripple me?

Please take a look at my game, especially Arrian and vmxa1, and tell me what "route" to take now, plus any other advice. Should I take on another Knight war, against Babylon maybe? Should I wait? HELP!

Arrian · February 26, 2003, 12:06

I can't download that and look at it now, since I'm at work (as is typically the case when I'm on 'poly

) I will try to have a look later, but my evenings this week are kinda hectic, since I'm finishing up moving out of my apartment and I'm going on a skiing trip this weekend.

-Arrian