Winning as Rome on a Huge World - Page 4

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 26, 2003, 12:17

I do most (95%) of my posting at work too. I don't have Civ installed here obviously. I just visualize my games in my head.

Yes, I am a sick individual.

Arrian · February 26, 2003, 12:37

Nah, I do the same. Well, I guess that just proves I'm sick too, huh?

Ooh, I had another thought for the parity thread...

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 26, 2003, 12:57

Now, just in theory, if I go for MT while my little friends nearby are pursuing their generic paths, quite a few of them will end up with democracy, astronomy, etc. before I do. Should I just keep attacking them with my cavalry to extract these techs from them?

I'm surrounded by China, Carthage, and Babylon. Babylon is an obvious PV (Potential Victim), as they are behind in tech and underdeveloped, but I'm worried about sullying AI attitudes and hence bringing upon myself an attack by China and Carthage. Perhaps I should start attacking Carthage when I get MT... they have Gunpowder, but no Saltpeter. But they could get it shipped in...

vmxa1 · February 26, 2003, 12:59

Ok I grabbed. I was not saying anything as I figured you were on top of it. I was just watching the progress.

Arrian · February 26, 2003, 13:01

Ack. Does China have their Riders (horses/iron)? Have they had their GA already (did they build the Great Wall, or have they fought with Riders yet)?

Gut response: stay the HELL away from China for now. Hit Babylon first, then Carthage (this assumes that hitting Babylon will bring a benifit. Do they have luxs you don't have? Would captured Bab cities be productive?). When you attack Carthage, try for an alliance with China against them. No importing saltpeter from enemies!

But that's without seeing the game.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 26, 2003, 13:05

I'm hoping China's low agression level will keep them friendly, at least long enough until I can fend them off. But they are a concern.

And those Carthaginians...

vmxa1, what does your last post mean?

vmxa1 · February 26, 2003, 13:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Now, just in theory, if I go for MT while my little friends nearby are pursuing their generic paths, quite a few of them will end up with democracy, astronomy, etc. before I do. Should I just keep attacking them with my cavalry to extract these techs from them?

I'm surrounded by China, Carthage, and Babylon. Babylon is an obvious PV (Potential Victim), as they are behind in tech and underdeveloped, but I'm worried about sullying AI attitudes and hence bringing upon myself an attack by China and Carthage. Perhaps I should start attacking Carthage when I get MT... they have Gunpowder, but no Saltpeter. But they could get it shipped in...

I would like to grab Adams on a huge map, so I would do Banking and Econ. I would not be consered about an attack, as it will fail anyway and you can so some serious damage if they do.
China is not strong enough, yes the Rider can be a problem, but it will not over come Muskets in a city.
You need three techs to have Calvs, so it is not like you will get it right away.
I am not interested in getting Demo, I will either trade/buy or take it at some point. Often not until I am going for ToE. At that time I want to get all the back level techs to get only good stuff for my freebies.
If they get to Asto before me, I just trade/buy it. I usually will have super city to build the wonder, so unless they use a leader I am ok. It is not unusual to find a civ that has the tech and getting in trouble with either war or crowding and is willing to do a deal for a lux or a tech.
I do not know what they have for troops, but quick looks so you realy are better off than it would seem.
You have cash so as soon as Leos is up (if you get it), I would get those upgrades. This will deter them and let you get a better understanding of your relative strength.
I do not like all of those RoP's.
Anyway you can go after Babs, by signing an MPP (no RoP) with one of the civs they are at war with now. The Babs have no allies.
So it seems to me you are in fine shape.
If you prefe to go MT, you could do that, but I do not see a pressing need. Get Adams and then do MT.
I then do only the techs need to advance to the next age.
You are 1st in all of the key stats or 2nd, no one is stronger in troops, so no problem.

vmxa1 · February 26, 2003, 13:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
I'm hoping China's low agression level will keep them friendly, at least long enough until I can fend them off. But they are a concern.

And those Carthaginians...

vmxa1, what does your last post mean?

Only that I have been reading your post, but figured you were in good shape.
I would say in fact that you are in good shape and know what to do. You have listed all of the options, I would say either choice will work out. Is one vastly superior to another? I can't say as I am not intimate with this particular game. I am sure that either plan will succeed.

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 26, 2003, 14:33

Huh, but you would still err on the side of economics prior to getting MT, right? (vmxa1)

Me too... that's my natural inclination... but if I am to take out more than one of my neighbors before the industrial age, perhaps I should neglect it a little bit in favor of Cavalry. We'll see. I would certainly hate to see the Greeks or Carthys get it before me, that's for sure.

Arrian · February 26, 2003, 15:07

vxma1,

Since you've looked a his game, I have a question... is he a tad bit defender-heavy? Based upon his comment in the other thread (overcoming parity), it sounds like he's got way too many defense units.

-Arrian

vmxa1 · February 26, 2003, 19:24

Arrain, yes and no. I say yes as most cities have three units. No in that the overall size is not that large.
IOW if most of the inner cities where stripped down to one defender and the troops sent to the likely danger areas, then that would be fine, but I think having three spears/pikes in the inner cities is a sign of defensiveness.

vmxa1 · February 26, 2003, 19:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Huh, but you would still err on the side of economics prior to getting MT, right? (vmxa1)

Me too... that's my natural inclination... but if I am to take out more than one of my neighbors before the industrial age, perhaps I should neglect it a little bit in favor of Cavalry. We'll see. I would certainly hate to see the Greeks or Carthys get it before me, that's for sure.

Well it comes down to what you plan on doing real soon. If no wars are going on and you do not expect to take it to anyone, then get the money for later. Supporting larger armies and rush buys.
You have enough to defend yourself, but no real offensive units, so I am thinking no offensive wars are in the cards for awhile.
If someone wants to come after you fine, you can handle it. If you elect to go after the Babs in conjunction with the other civ, you can do that with what you have (after upgrades) and a few additions. At this stage I would be building troops some where all the time (as much as I could).
Get the tech and make a trade for the missing stuff with it and race to MT. Upgrade to calv and crank them out and crush someone.
I think I said before you could take any of these paths and be fine.

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 27, 2003, 10:50

I've just about had it with f***ing Rome.

The Carths built Leo's Workshop, and having taken Egypt, they are now on a total tech and military parity with me. They even now have saltpeter.

Sure, I've got Sistine, JS Bach's, AND Sun Tzu's, but basically, I have to crush these bastards or they'll still screw me up at some point.

I'm current amassing 20 knights in a border city near Theveste (a border city of theirs, where Leo's was built). I'll attempt to take the city and hold it, while keeping my losses to a minimum. Then, if we can have peace, I'll launch my war against the Babylonians.

I know I can win. But it's so dispiriting. In fact, those Carthaginians are dispiriting in general. I have been trying new games, and always now my first goal is to find them and destroy them. Hopefully the Greeks won't be nearby.

vmxa1 · February 27, 2003, 14:02

One of the usefullness of playing games out till you win or lose is that you soon get a feel for the flow of a given setting.
You will then not get upset, as you know what to expect and the approximate time that things will change.
When a civ gives me some grief, I just think, ok when I get to this next juncture, payback time.

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 27, 2003, 14:16

Well, I agree with that for the most part, but I think I made a mistake not attacking Egypt when Carthage and everyone else was. That way, I could have stopped Carthage from becoming so huge...

...so, I'll probably start a whole new game, and not repeat this mistake if it's presented to me again.

Also, I'm making much greater use of barracks very early in the game. 3 veteran archers are enough to take a Greek or Carthaginian newly-built city, at least on Regent mode, and once I've got 2 productive Roman cities, if these bastards are nearby, I'll have some archers to 'em real soon.

Of course, luxuries are key. Last night I played a game going after the Carthaginians with archers and spearmen. I defeated them, taking all 8 of their cities, but we were alone on the continent with nothing but barbarians and I saw so behind in tech (going for Monarchy, hoping to trade for the others) that this game is now at a bit of a dead-on.

I'm slowly catching on. Very slowly.

vmxa1 · February 27, 2003, 17:18

If you want some insiration, look at the thread by Aeson called So Cold....
This shows that being behind is not a problem, in and of itself.

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 28, 2003, 16:00

I will look at this thread, when I can find it.

In the meantime, I'd like to share some observations from my numerous games that have not lived up to (my) expectations as Rome, particularly in the ancient game.

Once again, bear in mind that this is a HUGE world we're talking about, and cultural linking is ON.

a. The "drive to Monarchy" can be very fruitful if you find yourself surrounded by neighbors, and utterly fruitless if this is not the case. With fewer neighbors, I am tempted to think that horseback riding the correct goal.

The reason I say so is that your few neighbors will most likely be Egypt, Greece and Carthage... and all 3 you want to stop early on, especially Egypt. But you can only eliminate one by pursuing a perpetual war when most of the civilizations overseas are getting their act together. And you most certainly do not want to blow your GA using legionaries on these swine. You just want to screw them up, and "take them out" later.

b. Building one or two archers is more profitable than building two or three warriors early in the game, due to the warrior's propensity to release barbarians when exploring goody huts. These barbarians won't do much but spawn more barbarians, a not-insurmountable, but completely irritating, problem.

A wandering warrior cannot, most likely, take out a newly built mediterranean city. An archer, on the other hand, might. Numerous archers can take down more than one city, if used intelligently.

Your exploration won't be as hot, but then again, it's not so hot with those warriors anyways. Build warriors only in cities where you intend to immediately build a worker or settler.

c. Take down your neighbors if you find them early - but if you make peace, don't attack them again until you're truly prepared. I managed to take down the Carthaginians with just archers, but I managed to do only that. More often than not, I've taken Sparta or Utica, made peace, and then opportunistically pressed on to Athens or Carthage only to be defeated, and find myself in a war in which negotiating peace is much more difficult.

d. Don't overlook the GL. It's a wonderful wonder to have, and depending on your circumstances, I would head for literature before Monarchy - although I agree with Arrian that hawking the techs leading to Monarchy can be very profitable.

e. I wouldn't bother with granaries, at least until you have a few cities built, and can have Veii and Antium producing units or barracks while Rome catches up with a granary (this depends on your land and neighbors, of course).

...I'd like critiques of these points if y'all would be so kind. I'm still working on this game, I hate to say... I hate entering the medival era NOT the dominant power, and I hate having a close rival at ANY point in the game (close tech-wise, that is).

And one last word on the subject: simply put, it is DAMN HARD to prosper as the Romans on a huge map, due to their Hoplite and Num. Merc. weilding neighbors, plus numerous (potential) industrious neighbors (Egypt, Ottomans, Persia, France).

Arrian · February 28, 2003, 16:25

Aeson's thread is listed in the "Must Read" threads that is topped on the Strategy forum. Its full name is: So Very Cold (of the map generator).

What he did in that game was nothing short of amazing.

Quote:

And one last word on the subject: simply put, it is DAMN HARD to prosper as the Romans on a huge map, due to their Hoplite and Num. Merc. weilding neighbors, plus numerous (potential) industrious neighbors (Egypt, Ottomans, Persia, France).

True. Regarding point "e" though, I think you may be wrong about the power of the early granary.

First off, I don't know if you knew this, but your chances of getting a settler from a hut are ZERO if you either have an active settler, a settler in production, or more than the average number of cities (of all civs in the game). I often get settlers from huts as a non-expansionist civ if I open with either a military-heavy (see AU206 stories thread) or early granary strat. Thus, if you open with warrior, warrior, warrior, granary (using a barracks for a prebuild while racing for pottery), you have a decent chance of getting a settler from a hut.

But you clearly cannot count on that. Still, building a bunch of warriors for exploration, then a granary, and then a slew of settlers & workers will catch you up. On a huge map, it's just about guaranteed.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 28, 2003, 16:32

Well, once again Arrian, you bring up a rule that I just did not know about, that changes my whole perspective. Thank you. Keep up the good work.

I will try this strategy tonight, unless the GF drags me out to a nightclub somewhere, in which case, I'll just obsessively think about it instead.

Arrian · February 28, 2003, 16:55

Go have a few drinks at the club... THEN try it.

Yeah, the rule about popping settlers from huts, when first disclosed in full by Firaxis, was quite a bombshell.

Now I always switch production in my city(ies) prior to opening huts. As a result, what used to be an "almost never" occurrence has become much more common.

By the way, pay attention to exactly how you set up your cities' food intake. For instance, let's say you have a cow on grassland and a wheat on plains. Irrigate them both, and your city will be at +5 food/turn so long as the other tiles you work all provide 2 food. At +5 food/turn, your city grows every 4 turns (until hitting size 7). With a granary, it's every 2 turns. You can build workers or settlers without interruption. That is the ultimate worker/settler pump.

If you instead mined both resources, your city would produce more shields, true, but only +3 food/turn, requiring 7 turns to grow and wasting 1 food per growth cycle (extra food does NOT carry over) without a granary, and 4 turns to grow wasting 2 food per cycle with the granary.

The 60 shield cost up-front can be daunting, I know, and I do not by any means always go with an early granary (in fact, when playing a militaristic civ I rarely do... but have with Rome before with spectacular results). But on a huge map it seems to make sense.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · February 28, 2003, 17:01

Interesante. The strategy above would seem to hinge on the proximity of your neighbors to you, especially if said neighbors are expansionist and likely getting a free city early on... but I will try it. I will try every damn strategy posted in this thread until I win.

But I thought, under despotism, you do not gain any additional food from irrigation on a tile already producing more than 2 food?

vmxa1 · February 28, 2003, 17:46

On a huge map I would be inclined to go with several warriors first as well. Not so much because it increases my chance to pop a settler (it does), but because I want to get to all of those huts before others do and met the other civs. I may end up with 6 warriors scouting as I get so many warriors fom the huts. When I am in a mean mood and have two warriors at vet level due to fights and encounter a town, I may try to take it down if it was just created. Vets or sometimes elites can do some damage. I may just do some pilaging.

Yahweh Sabaoth · March 3, 2003, 11:32

Victory is mine!!!

Well, not yet. But it's within grasp. Tonight, perhaps, or tomorrow morning.

Thought I'd summarize the major points that led to my victory:

1. Started next to grapes and cattle, and a river. I had a good feeling that I was situated in rich terrain.

2. Researched Pottery right off the bat. Built warrior, warrior, warrior, barracks-switch-to-granary.

3. Didn't find any settlers (yes, I used the switch-your-settlers-before-you-pop-a-village trick), but got lucky with my huts in general: generally advances or gold, few barbs.

4. Met the nearby Egyptians, and destroyed one of their cities. They built another on the same spot later, but this one act, I feel, crippled their chances at making it.

5. I started with the Aztecs separating me from Greece and Carthage. I know I didn't choose this myself, but it made a major difference.

6. REXed, making sure I got HRB and Iron and then heading for Monarchy. Traded agressively, often spending all my gold. Switched to Monarchy, NOT Republic. Built HG.

7. Did NOT use any legionaries to attack. I built one.

8. The inevitable attack by 4 Carthaginian warriors against one border city with a warrior and temple was defeated by switching the library being built there to a spearman, and using a nearby horseman to drive them back. Immediately called the Americans, Babylonians, Aztecs, Greeks and Egyptians to my aid. They helped cut Carthage down to size.

9. Triggered my GA using the 1 Legionary to attack a wandering Carth archer at the perfect time: just when I was half way to feudalism.

10. Built all the important medival wonders, and then got Chivalry.

11. Built two groups of knights and used them to down pacifist Egypt in a few turns. NOTE: I had made sure to build worthless cities just to cut them off from iron. All they had was one source of horses.

12. Immediately moved against the Aztecs before they could connect their considerable resources to each other. At this time I was finally reaching culture parity; the aztecs were actually ahead! Still, by turning on the war machine, I took half of their empire, including their capital, which is in the center of the continent, almost.

Note: by this time the Babylonians had taken Greece and most of America, making them the other "Superpower". Overseas, Korea flourished.

13. Made peace with the Aztecs and Carthaginians, gaining an island city. Noticed about 30 Babylonians units moving en masse to a frontier town (some Aztec city) that I held with 2 musketeers and 17 knights. Wonder where they were going?

14. Lost 2 knights defending the frontier town. Pushed back with my knights, and got a GL which I used to rush the FP in Tenochtitlan. Got MT. Using cavalry and knights, took much of "America" from the poorly defended Babylon.

Around this time, made contact with the other continent and did a LOT of trading, spending all my money when needed be. Brought embargoes against the Babs and derived an income of over 200 per turn selling luxuries.

15. Switched to democracy. The Babs attack what was left of Carthage; I brought myself into an unpopular war against the Babs. It was a real meat-grinder, but I pushed Babylon back further, until now they can only attack via two ithmuses, both defended by 8 infantry in fortresses on hills. (Of course, Babylon could still attack from the sea, but c'mon). Also, crushed what was left of America by this time.

Now I'm at war with the Babs, which is dragging me down, but I'm not scared. Also, lost my trading privledges with the Koreans, who the Babs somehow got to declare war on me. I've gone ahead and armed the Aztecs and Carthaginians, who are fighting the Babs inside "my" continent for me.

Sure, I'll have a little more disorder, but when I make peace I'll keep it, and win a cultural victory.

Thank you all for your hints on this thread. They have helped end a month of misery.

Arrian · March 3, 2003, 12:59

Sounds like things are going well. Good for you.

Quote:

But I thought, under despotism, you do not gain any additional food from irrigation on a tile already producing more than 2 food?

Nope. Cows (grass or plains), wheat (plains, grass or floodplains), game (plains or grass), wines (plains for sure, never tried grass) can all be irrigated under despotism to provide more food.

It's normal grassland tiles that shouldn't be irrigated until you're out of despotism.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · March 3, 2003, 13:06

Just as I thought. Whoever posted to the contrary, bad, bad, leroy brown.

BTW, this is OT, but can someone point me in the direction of a good "How to Use Espionage Effectively" and "Defeating the Other Superpower" thread?