February 20, 2003, 13:50
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#1
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Local Time: 16:03
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Do we really want Democracy?
Inspired by a Sava quote that 70% (or something) that support the war on Iraq are beer-swilling NASCAR fans (or something).
The question is do we really want democracy? And if we do, does it make sense to say that the people are wrong? After all, if we really believe in democracy, wouldn't we end up saying the people are right?
Of course, there is a high percentage of people who aren't as educated as, say, the people on this site (and yes, we all are educated). Do we want the same power given to these people as we want given to our scientists and doctors? By some peoples' comments (the people are sheep... morons... etc), it seems we may have some problems.
So what can we do? Is it simply like Churchill says? (Paraphrasing) Democracy is the worst form of government, except when compared to the rest of them?
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“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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February 20, 2003, 13:56
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#2
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Emperor
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It is odd how the very people who decry the "masses" just love showing how they have popular support in their attempt to stop the war. "Our protest was attended by millions!"
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February 20, 2003, 13:57
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#3
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Deity
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People=Democracy, and yes, we want it.
Che, David, and Sava can go to Cuba.
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
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February 20, 2003, 13:58
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#4
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Local Time: 16:03
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Heh, though I think both sides are guilty of it, John.
There is definte tension between the 'unwashed masses' and the 'intellectual elites' on both sides! The elites think they should run the country, but also believe the people should have a say. But when the people have their say, the elites say the people are easily manipulated. It's an interesting conundrum and circle.
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“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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February 20, 2003, 14:04
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#5
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King
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Quote:
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We, some of the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice for the more fortunate, insure domestic tranquility for the same people, provide for the common defense of our oil fields in IRAQ, promote the general welfare of the HMOs, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity (excluding some people), do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
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What?
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February 20, 2003, 14:05
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#6
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Deity
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Dictatorship = bad
Mob rule = also bad
So we try to strike a balance... and get a representative republic.
Politicians will forever claim that the people are with them, or if not, that the people have been manipulated (I think the political buzzterm is "the politics of fear" when you want to claim that your opponent is manipulative).
It beats the hell out of tyranny. To improve it, we need to work on education. The better educated the masses are, the better their decision making will be (that's the theory anyway, and I think it's sound).
-Arrian
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grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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February 20, 2003, 14:10
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#7
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Emperor
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Quote:
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beer-swilling NASCAR fans
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That's me!
First, I don't like how you seem to ellude that such people are uneducated. I can see how one might think that, as all we are watching are some very powerful cars going around a track. I like to call it a "left-turn competition". Yet, until one goes to a NASCAR race it can never be truly appreciated. I like it, and I am smart... At least I think I am.
Second, I agree with Churchill.
Third, if you want a democracy you have to listen to the voice of the meek, the small, and the insignificant. It is them who will inherit the world. It is them who make democracy worth fighting for. It is them who make the governemt as strong as it is. The real problem lies in those who think they are smart, those who hold power, and those who believe they know what is fair, righ, and democratic. I would rather have the bottom wrung dictating what to do for a time.
Hey, for once I agree with the French:
I have come to the conclusions that politics are too serious a matter to be left to the politicians.
--Charles De Gaulle
Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.
--Charles De Gaulle
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February 20, 2003, 14:13
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#8
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King
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Is there such a thing as an enlightened despot ? If Saddam, instead of being a tyrant, actually cared for his people and instigated policies that profited his people, would that be enough to leave him be ? Would the revolution be worth the freedom ?
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What?
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February 20, 2003, 14:16
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#9
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Deity
Local Time: 15:03
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If. If a frog had wings, it wouldn't whomp it's ass every time it jumped.
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
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February 20, 2003, 14:19
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#10
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Warlord
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I'm not a fan of American democracy. And I surely don't believe that important decisions should be left to the masses to make. American society is already elitest. The capitalists have great power to make things happen in their benefit. If we created an elitest society based on educated people (not money) this elite class would still act mainly in their own interest as opposed to everyone's interest, although they probably would do a better job. That could be worse. These people are smarter so they could exploit us better
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"When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
"All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
"Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui
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February 20, 2003, 14:20
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#11
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Emperor
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Benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government.
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...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty
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February 20, 2003, 14:22
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#12
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Emperor
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The best leader we can have is a leader like ourselves when playing civ. Someone whose goal is truly the well-being of the nation.
The only one who can do it is, of course, me.
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"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.
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February 20, 2003, 14:23
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#13
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Deity
Local Time: 15:03
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Oh, man. Is that another veiled joke, Cal ?
Youe humor is as dry as the Texas sand, so it's hard to tell.
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
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February 20, 2003, 14:24
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#14
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Caligastia
Benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government.
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That depends on to whom he is benevolent.
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Tutto nel mondo è burla
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February 20, 2003, 14:25
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#15
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Emperor
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true democracy assumes an intelligent populus.
when this nation was founded, it was set up in such a way that the educated could "abuse" the system, to ensure that intelligent decisions were made.
now, too many people have a voice.
it's an interesting balancing game.
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"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
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February 20, 2003, 14:28
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#16
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Emperor
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In the latest poll, 57% of Amnericna support a war with a coolition of the willing:Such a majority is hardly cuase for celebrations of the type chickenhwaks make.
Also, saying you support somehting to a pollster is a passive act. Protesting requires you to get of your ass. As such, it is a signal of deeper sentiment. If so, prowar sentiment is slightly more widespread but also more passive, while anti-war sentiment, while less widespread, shows signs of being more heartfelt. And it is protestors who make policy, hence American gun policy and Abortion policy.
Those two things been said: the masses, whether they support or oppose war, are ignorant. They have neither the ime, nor the inclination, to delve deeply into any topic that may come up unless they had a prior personal interest. Mpost supporters of the war do it simply out of fear, without a worthiwhile reason, as do most opponets of war. If that sound elitist, good because I am one.
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If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake :(
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
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February 20, 2003, 14:33
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#17
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by SlowwHand
Oh, man. Is that another veiled joke, Cal ?
Youe humor is as dry as the Texas sand, so it's hard to tell.
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No, I actually do think it's the best way.
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...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty
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February 20, 2003, 14:34
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#18
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Boris Godunov
That depends on to whom he is benevolent.
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His people.
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...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty
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February 20, 2003, 14:54
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#19
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King
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Ok, tell me what system would you use instead of republic. A communist system maybe? No thanks. I prefer democracy with all its flaws.
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"Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
"A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)
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February 20, 2003, 14:57
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#20
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Emperor
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Communism has only killed 100 million people, lets give it another chance.
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...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty
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February 20, 2003, 15:07
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#21
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Warlord
Local Time: 12:03
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Caligastia
Communism has only killed 100 million people, lets give it another chance.
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I imagine you pulled this figure out of your ass, but anyway it's the leaders who are responsible for the deaths. The same in capitalist countries. It's not the ideology.
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"When you ride alone, you ride with Bin Ladin"-Bill Maher
"All capital is dripping with blood."-Karl Marx
"Of course, my response to your Marx quote is 'So?'"-Imran Siddiqui
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February 20, 2003, 15:08
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#22
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Emperor
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It was written on a protestor's sign in SF last weekend.
I think it was intended as a joke.
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February 20, 2003, 15:29
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#23
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Emperor
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I think the ideal system is a democracy with a strong enforced constitution that strictly limits what the government can do.
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"I'm moving to the Left" - Lancer
"I imagine the neighbors on your right are estatic." - Slowwhand
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February 20, 2003, 15:29
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#24
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Prince
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Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been tried from time to time.
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February 20, 2003, 15:29
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#25
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King
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Communism doesn't kill people, people kill people.
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February 20, 2003, 15:36
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#26
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Emperor
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People don't kill communism, communism kills communism.
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...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty
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February 20, 2003, 15:54
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#27
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by SlowwHand
People=Democracy, and yes, we want it.
Che, David, and Sava can go to Cuba.
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Whew -- I'm glad gay Yankees are not on your exile list.
Anyway, in regards to the thread's question -- a democracy in which the mass supports their government based on official propaganda is definitely questionable.
But the ideal, which has never been accomplished, would be a democracy with stronger representation, by increasing the participation of voters. Sadly, voting participation is what -- less than 50% of those who are legally able to vote?
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STFU and then GTFO!
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February 20, 2003, 16:04
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#28
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Emperor
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I swill beer and like NASCAR.
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Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
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February 20, 2003, 16:08
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#29
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Local Time: 16:03
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Quote:
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As such, it is a signal of deeper sentiment. If so, prowar sentiment is slightly more widespread but also more passive, while anti-war sentiment, while less widespread, shows signs of being more heartfelt.
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The reason is that protestors are going against the way the government is going. Pro-war people can BE more passive, because their way is winning right now.
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I swill beer and like NASCAR.
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You know what I meant  . And blame Sava  .
I swill beer, and just started watching NASCAR (Hell, I watch basically all sports... well, except basketball  ).
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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February 20, 2003, 16:11
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#30
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Emperor
Local Time: 23:03
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Currently, democracy is the most effective form of government.
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