Military Strengths

[Mr. President]

Originally posted by ColdWizard
and to think, the pitiful United States Navy has merely 27 cruisers and 57 destroyers

I drastically cut Dakmoristan's navy and air force.

[Giovanni Wine]

Originally posted by Mr. President




I drastically cut Dakmoristan's navy and air force.

same here

[Drogue]

Great idea Jack. If I become Mod, I will top that too. SO we have a sign up and stats thread for alliances, initiatives and military

[ColdWizard]

I won't be cutting back Eternal Cold's naval numbers since they were based on the USN info I had available at the time, though I may need to adjust support ship numbers

[ColdWizard]

for reference purposes, I'll share the ship info I've gleaned from the Navy's website (I think it's accurate for active duty ships, though some of the SSBNs are undergoing conversion to SSGNs)

CV	3	Carrier
CVN	9	Carrier, Nuclear
CG	27	Cruiser, Guided-missile
DDG	35	Destroyer, Guided-missile
DD	22	Destroyer
FFG	35	Frigate, Guided-missile
PC	13	Patrol Craft Coastal
MHC	12	Coastal Mine Hunters
MCM	14	Mine Countermeasure Ships
SSN	53	Submarine, Attack, Nuclear
SSBN	18	Submarine, Ballistic Missile, Nuclear
AE	1	Ammunition Ship
ARS	4	Rescue and Salvage
AS	2	Submarine Tenders
AOE	6	Fast Combat Support Ships
LHD/LHA	12	Amphibious Assault Ship
LCC	2	Amphibious Command Ship
LPD	16	Amphibious Transport Dock
AGF	2	Command Ship
LSD	15	Landing Ship, Dock

the navy also has some ships that are manned or partially manned by civilians and have not been included in the above list.


Additional note: The Navy website lists the number of aircraft at 4000+ but I've yet to find a breakdown of these numbers.

[Urban Ranger]

Noosland population: 657 million
GDP per capita: USD17,000
Defense budget: 5% GDP = USD558,450 billion

The squad is the basic unit for infantry and marine. A squad is composed of ten soldiers with standard combat gear (shown below). The composition of a squad:

Leader
Medic
Engineer
Comm. Officer
Heavy weaponeer
5 standard soldiers

The leader is one with most overall training and/or combat experience in the squad. He directs the squad in actual combat. The medic is a standard soldier with paramedic training and additional medical equipment and supplies. The engineer has training in battlefield demolition and construction of hasty covers. The communication officer is charged with communicating with the squad's unit. The heavy weaponeer has additional training in firing and maintaining the squad's light machine gun.

Standard combat gear
----------------------------
GLATIIS (Global location and total information interlink system)
6.5mm assault rifle
Night vision goggles
Infrared googles
Side arm
Large knife
Emergency survival kit
Granades
Miscellaneous items

Total weight: ~12kg

Each squad is issued 2 Shooting Stars (man portable anti-air missile launchers, each with 4 missiles) and 5 Roman Candles (man portable antitank missiles). Each squad has 1 A3A armoured personnel carrier with a 30mm chain gun and 2 Roamers (armoured car, similar to a Hummer).

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Drogue
Really? I suppose the US doesn't need that large a navy, with technology being more missile and airborne, but I thought it was bigger than that In that case, I think most of us should reduce our navy size.

You forgot that:

1. Carriers are a lot more expensive than they seem, because you need to include the airwings.

2. US forces are the most expensive in the world, both in terms of production and maintenance. Soviet/Russian equipment of comparable capabilities (at least on paper) is way, way, cheaper. Even British/Franch/German equipment is cheaper.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
Pilots: 1,500,000
Fighters (C-34W): 1'800
Fighter/bombers (CB-12W): 1'250
Ground-Attack Aircraft (CAT-23W): 570
Heavy Bombers(BP-78W): 320
Helicopters (E-23W): 1'600
Slealth Bombers (BS-45W): 73

*Scratches head*

Why do you need so many pilots?

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
Sailors: 2'300'000
Air Craft Carriers: 16
Battleships: 32
Cruisers: 30
Destroyers: 96
Missile Frigates: 120
Missile Subs: 42
Attack Subs: 35

Holy Thor, Lord of Asgard! How did you get all these?

I saw Akiria has 10,000 ICBM's, that's also

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


*Scratches head*

Why do you need so many pilots?

I think that is total personal. It includes Pilots , ground crews, guards at the airbasese ect.

[Giovanni Wine]

Well, as Jackson said, under the voice "pilot" (as well as the voice "sailor") I intended all non-civilian personal working for the AF (or the Navy).

As for the Navy, now that I compare the US one with my own, and cosidering the I'm country 3x times bigger than the US that "devotes most of its attentions to Defence" and that has a Powerhouse economy, maybe it is not that much overrated.

Although, since you seem to know much more about military stuff than me (as frankly I do not really know anything) maybe you could suggest me a more believable statistic

Saluti

[Drogue]

Likewise. Although I thought, how much does an ICBM cost? I have so much money floating around in my military budget for eqipment, even at 1 Billion USD a piece I could easily afford 10,000. Besides, Akiria does not believe in large manpower, but in technological superiority. Thus most of Akiria's weaponry and defence is automated, and as such I have massive stocks of missiles. It is a primary weapon to us. How much does an ICBM cost BTW? I know cruise missiles are about 1.2 Million USD a piece (according to the BBC).

[Mr. President]

Don't feel bad, Giovanni, at least you're trying to be reasonable.

[ColdWizard]

The Minuteman III ICBM has a unit cost $7 million according to the USAF website. I didn't see maintenance cost listed anywhere.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
As for the Navy, now that I compare the US one with my own, and cosidering the I'm country 3x times bigger than the US that "devotes most of its attentions to Defence" and that has a Powerhouse economy, maybe it is not that much overrated.

Although, since you seem to know much more about military stuff than me (as frankly I do not really know anything) maybe you could suggest me a more believable statistic

How big is your defense spending? I suppose "Regional Powerhouse" puts your GDP per capita just a shade below the US. So say maybe ~USD25,000?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by ColdWizard
The Minuteman III ICBM has a unit cost $7 million according to the USAF website. I didn't see maintenance cost listed anywhere.

That's just the missile itself though. There's also the warhead, which I presume is a MIRV with nuclear weapons. [What good is an ICBM without nuclear warheads?] So with 10,000 ICBM's you are looking at at least 30,000 nuclear warheads that all needed to be maintained and guarded very carefully.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
Well, as Jackson said, under the voice "pilot" (as well as the voice "sailor") I intended all non-civilian personal working for the AF (or the Navy).

That's still a huge amount. A US CVN (nuclear powered carrier) has about 6000 personnel. 12 of these would total up to only 72,000. Even if we count all of them to be in the Air Force ("pilots"), you have more than 20 times of manpower.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Army: 2.2 million, equipment includes tanks, APVs, attack helicopters, self-propelled, regular and missile artillery
Marine: 800 thousand
Special Forces: 300 thousand, including alpine troops

Army - 2.2 million regulars, plus reserves. Since Noosland has a compulsory military service, all man and woman must join in one of the branches for a 2 year training. Each year, everybody who is between 20-50 will be re-trained for a consecutive period of 2 months. During this time, they are on an paid leave of absence from their jobs.

Organisation
Squad

Platoon - consists of 2 squads, plus additional personnel and equipment: platoon leader, 2 dedicated combat engineers, 2 heavy machine guns, 1 mortar, plus armor (APC's) attachment. Total: 25 personnel.

Company (mechanised infantry) - consists of 3 platoons, plus: a squad of combat engineers, recon team, a battery of field artillery, antitank and anti-aircraft squad, plus armor attachment (10 tanks, APCs). HQ consists of: commanding officer, signal and information intelligence personnel, logistics support, and maintenance support. Total: 100 personnel.

Battalion (mechanised infantry) - consists of 4 companies, plus: battalion HQ, a platoon of combat engineers, recon squad, a platoon of field artillery, AT/AA platoon, signal and information intelligence unit, logistics support, maintenance support, plus a company of tanks. Total: 600 personnel.

Regiment (mechanised infantry) - consists of 5 battalions, plus: regimental HQ, a company of combat engineers, recon platoon, two companies of field artillery, AT platoon, AA platoon, signal unit, intelligence unit, logistics support, mantenance support, a battalion of tanks, Special Operations attachment, plus regimental aviation assets. Total: 3500 personnel.

Division (mechanised infantry) - consists of 4 regiments, plus: divisional HQ, a battalion of combat engineers, recon company, four battalions of field artillery, AT company, AA company, signal company, intelligence company, logistics support, mantenance support, a regiment of tanks, Special Operations attachment, field hospital, divisional aviation assets, plus other non-permanent attachments. Total: 16000 personnel.

The division is the largest permanent unit in the Noosland army. Larger units such as Corp and Front do exist, but their organisation is not regular, and they may not be permanent entities.

About 25% of all Noosland infantry divisions are of the "light" variety. Light infantry divisions have a lot fewer heavy equipment and are actually smaller than regular mechanised infantry divisions. However, they receive much more training and can be deployed rapidly across the globe. Light infantry divisions include alpine troops, mountain divisions, desert divisions, divisions specially trained to fight in jungles, and paratroopers. These special divisions have their own unique equipment.

The Noosland army is divided into three Fronts: Home Front, Northern Front, and Southern Front. All the Fronts are based inside Noosland, as we do not deploy troops outside of Noosland on a permanent basis.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by ColdWizard
the navy also has some ships that are manned or partially manned by civilians and have not been included in the above list.

I have just noticed that why the US Navy seems small - because the coastal lines are patrolled mainly by the Coast Guard. That kind of makes sense because these patrols are mainly police actions.

[Urban Ranger]

Nooslandian special forces are extensively trained units who excel in surgical strikes, raids, rescues and retrivals, and other small scale unit actions.

The Guardsmen - the Guardsmen is a special branch of the special forces extensively trained to protect prominent figures in the country, including political leaders and important scientists.

Blacklance Knights - Blacklance Knights is a very small and highly scretive special forces group. Very little is known about them.

Alpha Teams - consisted of the best members from other special forces, Alpha Teams are equipped with the best and most advanced devices available. Elite among the elites, they tackle the most important and difficult missions.

Wave Riders - with members handpicked from the marines, Wave Riders are particularly suitable to perform missions on the high seas or along coastal regions.

Nooslandians - the largest special forces group, Nooslandians closely coorporate with other regular forces, spearheading their operations. Nooslandians rarely attempt independent missions.

Ghostlight - Ghostlight specialises in recon and target acquisition missions.

Blue Caps - the Blue Caps is the largest non-specialist special forces group that performs independent missions.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Command ships: 3 (Artic Glow, Pacific Sunrise, High Noon)
Battleships: 3 (Indomitable, Impassable, Invincible)
Heavy Cruiser Paris Commune
Heavy missile cruisers: 7
Light missile cruisers: 19
AEGIS anti-missile cruisers: 17
Missile destroyers: 25
ASW destroyers: 59
AEGIS anti-missile destroyers: 21
Missile frigates: 55
Frigates: 75
AEGIS anti-missile frigates: 35
Escorts: 97
Missile Boats: 173
Coastal patrol crafts: 335
Hydrofoils and hovercrafts: 753
Amphibious assault transports: 237

Diesel attack boats: 359
Nuclear attack boats: 35
Nuclear missile boats: 9



Non-combat vessels (including tugs, transports, tankers): not counted

- All coastal patrol crafts, hydrofoils, and hovercrafts are transferred to under Civilian Coastal Defense Command, part of the police organisation.

- even though lacking any offensive capabilities, each of the command ship is the "brain" of a fleet due to its sophisticated electronics. Each has a high degree of command and control plus advanced detection and survillance capabilities, with direct sat links, advanced GLATIIS, and ECM and ECCM abilities. Two VTOL AWAC's are attached to each command ship.

- the ships are organised into three Fleets: Home Fleet, First Fleet, and Second Fleet.

[CapitanGarlic]

We have no numbers at the current time, but I can assure you that the military force of TDTotMC is minimal at best. Will have a full update soon.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by ColdWizard
The Minuteman III ICBM has a unit cost $7 million according to the USAF website. I didn't see maintenance cost listed anywhere.

In that case I might get quite a few more Even if I used all of them every year, 10,000 would only be 70 Billion. And the maintainance is likely to be much lower than that, maybe neaer 1 Million each? Anyway, if I allocate about 30 or 40 Billion to it, that should be plenty.

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
How big is your defense spending? I suppose "Regional Powerhouse" puts your GDP per capita just a shade below the US. So say maybe ~USD25,000?

I would guess Wine's is nearer 30,000 USD, maybe a little higher. I'm not sure the US would even be a powerhouse. This game seems to tend to extremes more, so that I think nations with powerhouse economy's probably have better economies than any RL country, and GDPs higher than anyone, except for maybe Switzerland.

and UR, 6 posts in a row, it's just not necessary. Couldn't you have edited and condensed it into 2 or 3? If you even need that

[Urban Ranger]

Well no. The first three might be condensed before they were posted, but meaningless to do so otherwise. The three long posts shouldn't be packed into one, that would be very hard to read.

[Jack_www]

Today I think I will make a new millitary ranking thread.
Cause this one has too much post of non millitary stats.

[GeneralTacticus]

Haven't you said this around, oh... three or four times already?

[Giovanni Wine]

Originally posted by Mr. President
Don't feel bad, Giovanni, at least you're trying to be reasonable.

I'm not feeling bad, I'm just tryng to be the most realistic as possible.

By the way, where are you guys taking the prices of the various military units, if I had something like that I could give a more reasonable Military Stat for Wine.

Oh, and BTW, the righest GDP per capita is Luxemburg, with $44,000 even higher than Switzerland 31,700$, and the USA 36,600$.
Italy is $25,000, the UK is 25,300$, France is $25,700, Germany is $26,600, Japan is $28,000, Iceland is $27,100, Sweden is $25,400 etc... (all according to the CIA Worldfactbook)

Therefore considering that the top Economy Rankings for NS are:
Strong, Very Strong, Thriving, Powerhouse, Frightening, All-Consuming (not sure which of the last two is stronger).
I'd say that RL EU and Japanese economies account for Thriving (25,000-29,999$ range)
Switzerland would be Powerhouse (30,000-34,999$ range)
USA would be All-Consuming (35,000-39,999$)
And Luxemburg would be Frightening (40,000$ and more)

Wine just dropped a few days ago from All-Consuming to Powerhouse, so I would place his GDP around 32,000$

So it would be 32,000$ multiplied for 678 Milion people:
That's about 21'696'000'000'000$ of total GDP
46% of tax rate (but much higher for the wealthy) so I will count it as a 50% so it is 10'848'000'000'000


Now considering that Wine "devotes most of its attentions to Defence" I would say that the current Defence Budget spending of Wine is about 8% so that means:
867'840'000'000$

Now those are a lot of money

Also here is how I would rate the various economies of the world according to NationStates

Frightening (40,000$ - more GDP; i.e. Luxemburg 44,000$)
All Consuming (35,000$-39,999$; i.e. USA 36,600$)
Powerhouse (30,000$-34,999$; i.e. Switzerland 31,700$)
Thriving (25,000$-29,999$; i.e. Germany 26,600$)
Very Strong (20,000$-24,999$; i.e. Spain 20,700$)
Strong (16,000$-19,999$; i.e. Portugal 18,000$)
Good (12,500$-15,999$; i.e. Czech Repubblic 15,300$
Reasonable (10,000$ -12,499$; i.e. Saudi Arabia 10,300$)
Fair (8,500$-9,999$; i.e. Russia 8,800$)
Developing (7,000$-8,499$; i.e. Brazil 7,400$ or The World 7,600$)
Weak (5,500$-6,999$; i.e. Panama 5,900$)
Fragile (4,000$-5,499$; i.e. China 4,600$)
Struggling (2,500$-3,999$; i.e. Egypt 3,700$)
Imploded (1,000$-2,499$; i.e. Bangladesh 1,750$ - India is 2,540$, so maybe Akiria is similar to India economically wise, but with more people)
Basket Case (1$-999$; i.e. Mozambique 900$)

So... what do you guys think about that?

EDIT: Modified calculations for Wine Defense Spending as I forgot to take into account the tax rate.

Saluti

[Jack_www]

Here is the new thread for millitary stats:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...01#post1950266

Please just post you millitary stats there and no disscussions, please do disscussions in this thread!

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
Oh, and BTW, the righest GDP per capita is Luxemburg, with $44,000 even higher than Switzerland 31,700$, and the USA 36,600$.
Italy is $25,000, the UK is 25,300$, France is $25,700, Germany is $26,600, Japan is $28,000, Iceland is $27,100, Sweden is $25,400 etc... (all according to the CIA Worldfactbook)

The facts I used all rebased to 2000 levels, which showed the USA at $28,000, Switzerland at $36,000 and the UK at $21,000. But there are many conflicting figures for it I'm not claiming mine are right at all.

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
Therefore considering that the top Economy Rankings for NS are:
Strong, Very Strong, Thriving, Powerhouse, Frightening, All-Consuming (not sure which of the last two is stronger).
I'd say that RL EU and Japanese economies account for Thriving (25,000-29,999$ range)
Switzerland would be Powerhouse (30,000-34,999$ range)
USA would be All-Consuming (35,000-39,999$)
And Luxemburg would be Frightening (40,000$ and more)

The first point I'd like to make, is that GDP is not directly related to the measure that you get on NS. It would be a good guide if people want to use it, but it is certainly not the be all and end all, and people should not try to tell other people what theirs is based upon it.

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
Wine just dropped a few days ago from All-Consuming to Powerhouse... 46% of tax rate (but much higher for the wealthy)

How did you get a powerhouse economy with a 46% tax rate and good environmental controls? I do that (trying to get tax down again) and let the employers hire and fire workers at will, and mine stays at imploded? What do you do differently?

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
Now considering that Wine "devotes most of its attentions to Defence" I would say that the current Defence Budget spending of Wine is about 8% so that means:
867'840'000'000$

868 Billion I think that would be 2nd biggest in the region. However I think it should be slightly higher, since "devotes most of its attentions to Defence" would imply something more like 8% of total GDP, than 8% of tax revenue. The US spends 6% of GDP, and that isn't devoting a 46% tax rate mostly to defence. I would say neaer 12% of that 10,848 Billion, and so about 1,085 Billion personally, but it's your RP.

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
So... what do you guys think about that?

I think that is far to restrictive. It is an RP thing, and trying to force everyone into that model is too restrictive. I say just use common sense. if you can argue why it should be what you've used, then use it, but at the end of the day, as long as the figure someone's giving isn't completely stupid, I'd say go with it.

[Mr. President]

Does 25 aircraft carriers sound reasonable?

In the other thread.

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Mr. President
Does 25 aircraft carriers sound reasonable?

In the other thread.

THe US navy has 12, I am twice the size of USA, so I have twice the carriers. What is the big deal?