What I've Learned on the Way to Emperor

BRC · February 22, 2003, 19:59

Just recently, Dominae posted a thread 10 tips to get you up to Emperor/Diety.
The thread covers much of what is needed to get to the higher levels, but I thought that I would spell out what I went through.
So......

I found this site in August 2002. I would just peek my head in and read what people were writing. One of the first things that I saw was Arrian's thread on Ultimate Power. I saw what he had accomplished in his game, and I said "That should be me." So, after a few half games on Warlord, I moved up to Regent with my newly found skills. I won the only full game I played at that level. The other ones that I started, I was "forced" to quit, mostly because I had learned so much and couldn't live with my mistakes. Playing taught me so much, but I owe much more to the countless threads and posts by others here. After reading all of Theseus' Must Read Threads, I took the jump to Monarch. My Egyptians seemed to perform well in the few games that I played. I was able to grab all of the wonders from the Hanging Gardens on, had the most land, highest population, and access to most luxuries. Still, I didn't feel like I was dominating as well as the regulars here seemed to be reporting. So, I posted in a thread (A Strategic Choice) in which Arrian and Dominae played out the same game with an Early Leader. I asked Dominae to take a look and tell me what he thought. I had no idea how much I had been doing wrong.

Dom was nice enough to create a new thread for the purpose of of making me a better player. BRC's Game covered the first game that I originally posted, a whole bunch of Q & A, as well as a number of graphics on city-spacing. It's an interesting read. Many people chipped in to help (you know who you are).

So, now that you know a little of my history, my first Emperor start. This is also my first game with someone other than Egypt (that lasted past Feudalism). Ottomans, Standard, Continents, Sedentary Barbs, PTW 1.14.

BRC · February 22, 2003, 20:01

I quickly REX'd out, trying to keep my cities at about 3-tile spacing. From what I had heard, you don't get a lot of land at this level. Best to get your cities down. I beelined to Monarchy, as I would need the MPs, and I planned to war. My initial Rex:

BRC · February 22, 2003, 20:02

Persia quickly made themselves a power. I worried that if I didn't hit them now, they might end up bullying me around. I built up a small force, and marched toward their capital, Persepolis.

BRC · February 22, 2003, 20:02

Right after, the Arabs declared war on me. I fought them off, and made peace on equal terms. Over the next few centuries, I oscillated on them, Persia, and the Zulu. Horsemen were upgraded to Knights, and then to Sipahi. An elite gave me my FP built due east of Istanbul. It was optimally located for when I owned the whole continent.

I made contact with the rest of the world in the early A.D.'s. China and France were pushing their tech ahead steadily, and they usually trailed by one. Japan and India had been beaten into submission early, but were plugging along. I kept contacts seperate until Astronomy.

Well, after taking half of my continent, building my FP, and some infrastructure, I decided that it was time to get back on the grind.
Arabia was next, and my Sipahi sliced through their belly. I captured a few wonders (Sistine, Leo's) and built Adam Smith's and J.S. Bach's at home. Then, with my momentum, (and a nicely timed GA), I went after Zululand.

BRC · February 22, 2003, 20:03

With my continent secure, I went into builder mode. Looking back, this was probably a mistake, as I should have put out more Sipahi and sent them over on boats. Anyway....

France. They pissed me off. They dropped 2 Medieval Infantry off next to my core. I politely asked them to leave. They declared war. Ok. I dealt with the "threat" and planned some payback. I was in no condition to take over their whole homeland, but I did the next best thing.

Paris, which was a major powerhouse, was the target of my frustration. I dropped off ~12 or so Sipahi and Riflemen a square away. Next turn, I hit it, I razed it, then I got back on the boat. See ya.

BRC · February 22, 2003, 20:04

I felt better. I went home and did some more building. I snagged all of the Industrial Era Wonders, with ease. Japan sneak attacked my little island to the SE. Oh well. Other than that, nothing exciting.

I first contemplated going the U.N. route, as I was starting to get bored. The Spaceship would take too long (I thought). However, I have heard that a U.N. vote can be unpredictable with all of the MPP's and Alliances, so I decided that Tanks would be the way to go. France was first.

I landed roughly 80 Tanks, which were upgraded to MA right before the attack. They made progress pretty steadily, as I was praying for a Domination win. I cleared out the French, and with no Domination turned on China. As WW hit me, I dropped into Anarchy for the final push. A few turns later, it was all over.
Final Score: 7074

BRC · February 22, 2003, 20:05

Here are the Score and Culture Graphs. Power looked almost exactly like Score.

BRC · February 22, 2003, 20:06

Culture

BRC · February 22, 2003, 20:07

Walking step by step through my game:

1) Tighter city spacing. Found city's along fresh water, bonus resources, luxuries. Most important, at Emperor, the AI's expand fast. Get a lot of cities vs. a lot of land. You need to get your production up to make up for the AI's 80% bonus.

2) Build the FP early. While I didn't, it could have made the game much easier, even if it was not optimal (thanks Catt). I was being killed by OCN corruption by 300 A.D. BUILD IT EARLY.

3) Despotism doesn't suck. Actually it does, but, with the ability to support 4 units per city for free, you can become powerful very quickly. Build a lot of workers. Build a lot of units. This game, I finally broke down and built non-vet units. They work great as MP units, and they don't require a barracks (with 1 gp per turn). Keep your military at the limit of your allotted units.

4) Relative strength. The AI might have a bigger army than you. But when you have all of your units outside his capital (Persepolis, in my case), then it doesn't really matter. Use your whole army to fight. He will beg for peace after you knock down a city or two.

5) Crown Thyself. I went to Monarchy first, and then to a Democracy in the Industrial Ages. Unless you have a good amount of luxuries, I think that it is a good idea to just take the anarchy and be a King. MP units are still extremely useful for getting your production up, and the hordes of workers that you have (right?) are not eating away at your treasury. The Medieval Age is all about production.

6) What Wonders? I did not attempt to build a single wonder until J.S. Bach's. While this may have been because I didn't get my FP finished until late, I would put serious thought into spending a lot of shields on something this early in the game. Just make sure that it's worth it, ok? BTW: I think that Bach's was the most important wonder in this type of game, followed by TOE, Adam Smith's, and the later ones. Set yourself up to nab the later ones.

7) Acquire Happiness. Also something I failed to do, although I normally do it. How hard is to pack a boat or two full of units and send to find a luxury? Any luxury that is on a coast belongs to you. Go get it. Have money to rush a Harbor. This is not a war of conquest, or attrition. The long term benefits are massive....

8) Diplomacy. Sell your techs for GPT, if it's reasonable. Keep your reputation clean, if you can. The AI's don't have to like you, but they do need to respect you.

9) Marketplaces are required. Along with your search for luxuries, you will need marketplaces. I did not build a single temple or cathedral until the last 15 turns, and even then I didn't need 'em. I love religious, but it wouldn't have helped me nearly as much this game.

10) Culture. You can clearly see that I didn't have a whole lot of it in the beginning of the game. Later I came on strong. Most of my early shields went towards units. With no temples, my first sources of culture were the libraries that went in. I had 4 or 5 cities flip, yet only lost 2 or 3 units due to IDGAFIYF strategy. Jawa Jocky will explain this later if you have any questions.

11) WLTKD. It is important to know how this works, especially in this type of game. The production boost is huge. If you are having trouble getting cities productive, force them into WLTKD with a marketplace, MP units, and more luxuries. It's a great thing.

12) Predicting Tech. The AI will usually research the same techs down the tree. Research the ones that they won't and trade it to each AI for a different tech. Four for the price of one. These Emperor AI's are good for something after all.

13) Go For The Kill. After I cleared my continent, I should have loaded up my boats with Sipahi and Rifleman and run amock. My cities should have kept turning out units. Instead, I became a builder. I had such an advantage that the game could have easily been over by the middle of the Industrial Ages. If you've been playing builder all game, keep building. The Spaceship is not too far away at 4-5 turns per tech.

14) Hail Mary! I had MA hammering the AI's. The WW was killing me though. I could have stopped the wars and ended the suffering. Instead, I plunged my beautiful civilization into anarchy, and pushed ahead. A few turns later, the game was over. Don't stop. Get it. Get it. (Write that down.)

15) This is the most important thing that you can do, so listen up. If you're having a problem with your style of play, ASK SOMEONE WHAT YOU'RE DOING WRONG. Post a save, with your general game plan. Someone will help you. This will shave months off of the learning curve. Trust me. I have something like 3 or 4 complete games to my name. Game experience is not something that I have a lot of. However, I do have a lot of experience through reading about what others have had to deal with. Know how the AI thinks. Don't react to what the AI's do. Force them into a situation that they won't like (e.g. Selling them techs, Attacking with a lot of units in a stack, Researching techs they won't). You dictate the game that they play.

Any questions?? I'll probably have other stuff later, but I'm tired. Discuss. Debate. This is not a list to get you to Emperor. This is what I have learned. That being said, this is definitely not the only way to play the game. Make a plan and stick to it. If it isn't part of your plan, then stay away from it. Good Luck all!!

BRC · February 22, 2003, 20:11

Here is a zip file with the Initial Start, and the save from right before I won. It got really sloppy at the end, as I was just trying to get it done. Please excuse.

BigDork · February 22, 2003, 20:21

Good Lord BRC...

You make it look so easy. I think I'm a bit away from Emporer yet.

So, I'm wondering, what do you think is the biggest thing that helped you move up the difficulty levels? And what's a good piece of advice to help me out?

BigD

BRC · February 22, 2003, 20:24

You're gonna have to wait Big D. I have a lot to do. The answers to all your questions will be up by the morning. Nice game BTW.

BigDork · February 22, 2003, 20:34

Quote:

Originally posted by BRC
You're gonna have to wait Big D.

Oh, but I want it now...

Quote:

Originally posted by BRC
I have a lot to do. The answers to all your questions will be up by the morning

I hear that. Way too much to do. And I appreciate any help.

Quote:

Originally posted by BRC
Nice game BTW.

Thanks.

BigD

alva · February 22, 2003, 23:09

Nice work BRC, we should have some succesion games going (maybe in the multi-player forum

)

About city-placing; I'm not the authority on the subject, but looking from your first pic, I'd personaly do (or have done) 2 things.

Red dots = extra cities
blue arrow= settled 1 tile further

The basic thing with putting your cities close together is
1. Make sure you use all land tiles
2. Try to get as much harbors in as possible, so you can get maximal use of of the sea

Master Zen · February 23, 2003, 00:39

Good job BRC

I agree with Alva in that you could've put in a couple of more cities, still you won so in retrospect it ain't that big a deal.

I think an important thing you should mention is getting the Golden Age at an optimal time which you did. Getting the GA is vital, IMO when you are making the final push into conquering your continent.

Right now I'm playing as France on Emperor and am at war with Germany (the #1 power) in the early middle ages. Even though I have many Musketeers I have wisely avoided combat with them, I've lost a lot of Knights this way, but I've spared getting a GA since I plan to turn my army against my other neighbours right after Bismark kicks the bucket.

BRC · February 23, 2003, 01:44

Alva: I definitely agree that I should have plopped a city down up top. I debated a long time on the southern one, and finally said no. My OCN corruption was starting to kill me, as I didn't get my FP down as quickly as I would have liked to.

MZ: I was debating on grabbing the Persians or Ottomans for this game, and finally decided on the Ottomans, due to the later GA and the fact that I thought that I would have a bigger window with the Sipahi than the Immortals. I am pleased with my decision.

Dominae · February 23, 2003, 01:48

Quote:

Originally posted by BRC
One of the first things that I saw was Arrian's thread on Ultimate Power. I saw what he had accomplished in his game, and I said "That should be me."

Ah-HA! So that's where your UP/perfectionist bias comes from (not that there's anything wrong with that...).

Nice, very dominating game, BRC. Now you need to follow it up with the "things you learned" section...I'm expecting it!

Dominae

Master Zen · February 23, 2003, 01:58

Quote:

Originally posted by BRC

MZ: I was debating on grabbing the Persians or Ottomans for this game, and finally decided on the Ottomans, due to the later GA and the fact that I thought that I would have a bigger window with the Sipahi than the Immortals. I am pleased with my decision.

The Ottomans was a great decision, they are actually my favorite civ to play with and the Siphai the best UU IMO. The Siphai with its attack of 8 has a huge advantage over the best defending unit 4 (musketman). The Cavalry, at 6 vs. 4 is not as good as it looks since at the time many of the AI's cities will be cities, not towns.

I do not like civs with early-medieval UUs (except the Berserker) because none gives too big an advantage against the best defenders 4 (knights) vs. 3 (pikemen). The other exeption are the immortals and the mounted warrior, good units in the early ages.

BRC · February 23, 2003, 02:52

Post 9 updated. Check it out.

Quote:

Ah-HA! So that's where your UP/perfectionist bias comes from (not that there's anything wrong with that...).

What can I say?? I was a playstyle-jacker. Although, now, my game probably looks more like yours than Arrian's (except the OCP spacing around my new FP/Palace. I'll never let go

).

Another thing. I was so bored at the end of the game. I just wanted to end it. Maybe UP isn't so much fun to deal with when you have a whole continent to yourself.

yxhuvud · February 23, 2003, 10:02

Regarding that you stated that you thought it was a mistake to build instead of making war overseas after taking your continent:

When you are in the position you where, you have won regardless, it really didn't matter..

ottok · February 23, 2003, 10:35

no best,way it is lot of messages...
What you nice paint try tell?

badams52 · February 23, 2003, 13:20

Quote:

Originally posted by BRC
Walking step by step through my game:

10) Culture. You can clearly see that I didn't have a whole lot of it in the beginning of the game. Later I came on strong. Most of my early shields went towards units. With no temples, my first sources of culture were the libraries that went in. I had 4 or 5 cities flip, yet only lost 2 or 3 units due to IDGAFIYF strategy. Jawa Jocky will explain this later if you have any questions.

Spoken like a true warmonger

esp. points 13 & 14, though I'll have to agree that sometimes the cure for what ails you is war with a neighbor. See the evaluation coming up later on my Dry, Hot game.

On the culture flipping, sure the IDGAFIYF strategy works, but I rarely employ it, maybe because I usually build culture improvements earlier than the AI. I prefer starvation and buying workers, which I learned from the AI. Though if you're really, really lacking in culture (try an NIC game), neither method works.

My favorite example: I build a city, it flipped while not at war because of it's proximity to the border with India (many cities flipped in my NIC in this manner). After I retook the city and destroyed India's cities that caused border dispute and put up my own cities that encased said city in my own borders, it still flipped to India. There were 2 Indian nationals compared to my 3 Chinese citizens inside, and that was enough.

badams52 · February 23, 2003, 13:25

Quote:

Originally posted by BRC

Another thing. I was so bored at the end of the game. I just wanted to end it. Maybe UP isn't so much fun to deal with when you have a whole continent to yourself.

Ah yes, I've felt that way many times on a UP game,

[Shameless Plug]
but had that feeling even more so in my NIC game (warning for those of you who think you want to try one). But you'll learn a lot if you do decide to take it on and be sure to post your results.
[/Shameless Plug]

badman · February 23, 2003, 13:38

Good points, BRC

3) I'm not sure if I get your point (probably my English isn't good enough). You built regular units on purpose? I always build barracks before I built any units other than my first defender.

5) Of course it depends on your way of playing (builder, warmonger). But a Republic can fight pretty long wars and only the Republic can give you the ability to outresearch the AI especially if you are scientific. I like switching from Despotism to Republic and then keeping it for the rest of the game.

6) I agree, recently I have experienced that it isn't all that important to build wonders (except for ToE and perhaps Hoover's). I still love to build all of them

Dominae · February 23, 2003, 13:59

Wow, BRC, it's scary how much of an influence I've had on your game-style. I have to agree with all your points, because I remember defending most of them myself!

Re: Despotism, MP, and Vets. The only MP unit really worth it is obviously the Warrior. The only Regular unit I use are Warriors. I therefore tend to use a lot of Regular Swordsmen, if I need them. If you're expecting the unit to get into a fight, make it a Vet. The exception to this rule is Draft units, which sort of break this whole paradigm because their cost is flat (1 pop).

Again, nice game, BRC. Now go back and do the 'Son of SVC' AU. Heh.

Dominae

BRC · February 23, 2003, 16:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
Wow, BRC, it's scary how much of an influence I've had on your game-style. I have to agree with all your points, because I remember defending most of them myself!

Re: Despotism, MP, and Vets. The only MP unit really worth it is obviously the Warrior. The only Regular unit I use are Warriors. I therefore tend to use a lot of Regular Swordsmen, if I need them. If you're expecting the unit to get into a fight, make it a Vet. The exception to this rule is Draft units, which sort of break this whole paradigm because their cost is flat (1 pop).

Again, nice game, BRC. Now go back and do the 'Son of SVC' AU. Heh.

Dominae

I quickly reached my maximum allowable units in Despotism and did not want to exceed it. So, instead of turning out more warriors for MP units, I built regular spearmen instead. I was able to use these in battle, just more or less as a distraction. I still had Vets covering my stacks. Some of these spearmen were upgraded, but I was able to build Vet Musketmen and Rifleman pretty efficiently, and so therefore disbanded some. I didn't even attempt a swordsman upgrade, but instead built horsemen and had massive upgrade to Knights when I hit the Zulu. I had to stop research for a few turns, as I had been researching at pretty much full speed. The treasury needed a little boost.

BRC · February 23, 2003, 16:06

Quote:

Originally posted by badman
Good points, BRC

3) I'm not sure if I get your point (probably my English isn't good enough). You built regular units on purpose? I always build barracks before I built any units other than my first defender.

5) Of course it depends on your way of playing (builder, warmonger). But a Republic can fight pretty long wars and only the Republic can give you the ability to outresearch the AI especially if you are scientific. I like switching from Despotism to Republic and then keeping it for the rest of the game.

6) I agree, recently I have experienced that it isn't all that important to build wonders (except for ToE and perhaps Hoover's). I still love to build all of them

#3: While I love barracks, I don't think that they are worth the upkeep (and cost) if you'll be building units sporadically in them. I waited to build barracks until I thought that the city would only be producing units for a while. This allowed me to keep researching at 100% for a long time.

#5: I had a lot of cities, so my free units support was fairly high. While this was nice for keeping a large military, I really believe the key was the large amount of workers that I was able to keep working. I really think that I would have gone broke in a Republic, had I tried this type of game.

#6: The Medieval Wonders are nice, but the only essential one was J.S. Bach's. Adam Smith's helped out a lot later on. Make sure you get the Industrial Ones.

Theseus · February 23, 2003, 17:45

Great job and great thread. More "learnings" please.

nbarclay · February 24, 2003, 03:53

If you still have the 4000 BC save of that by any chance, I might be interested in giving it a try and showing how our approaches differ - if I can ever find the time.

Nathan

badams52 · February 24, 2003, 12:03

BRC - there's a typo in your links (or at least I'm having problems with them). Your links look like:
"http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread/.php?s=&threadid=69974" when it should be:
"http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69974"

There's a backslash there in the first one after showthread where there shouldn't be.