No Science Succession: Revenge of the Space Luddites - Page 3

Six Thousand Year Old Man · February 27, 2003, 19:01

I'd post a poll, except that this isn't a democracy game

OK... perhaps we should each state a governmental preference and reasons for it.

I think there are SG(2), BM, Hydey and STYOM for Republic so far...

I think SG[1] mentioned fundy or commie..
obiwan definitely is for fundy...

Where does everyone else stand and why? This isn't a simple show of hands... I favour Republic, but if someone can show me a way to get to something else quickly, or show me that the other choice will definitely pay off in the long term, I might change my mind.

I favour Republic because:
- we can get it sooner than anything else. We need out of Despotism.
- Republic trade bonuses will make trading more worthwhile, sooner. Remember, the goal is AC.
- WLTCD allows fast city growth - especially since luxuries will be turned up (it's luxuries or taxes only).
- we'll have lots of base taxes due to science being at 0, for rushbuilding caravans/freight.
- waste/corruption can be reduced with courthouses (again, we should have cash to buy them).

Six Thousand Year Old Man · February 27, 2003, 19:04

1. obiwan18

2. SG(2)

3. Hydey

4. SCG

5. STYOM

6. SG[1]

7. Bloody Monk

8. Jrabbit

9. La Fayette

10. Vlad Antlerkov

Several cities are down now - since there are a lot of us, let's drop to 12 turns.

Bloody Monk · February 27, 2003, 19:15

@STYOM,

Actually, your list of reasons makes Republic seem too easy.

While I favor Republic, I will try anything. It's only a question of time, I think, but, getting there is all the fun. A late game Democracy under these conditions might be very hard to defend unless we had a passle of NON units, Bach's, and or, Women's sufferage.

You are correct, this is not a Democracy Game. Why don't you just dictate the decision?? It's your baby, so to speak.

Monk

DrSpike · February 27, 2003, 20:05

Republic all the way.......out with the damn barbarians.

Six Thousand Year Old Man · February 27, 2003, 20:10

I didn't dictate the decision because I wanted to leave it open to debate. I don't honestly know that Republic is the best way, and someone else might have more experience in the area

I mean, with a high luxury rate, Monarchy might even have been an option. Celebrate, collect arrows like a Republic does, no out-of-city unit problems. Then again, maybe not (corruption, no WLTPD growth)...

It'd be great if we all agreed on one course of action. If we can't agree, I guess it'll come down to a show of hands... or someone will have to pull the trigger and revolt, risking the wrath of the Institute

SCG · February 27, 2003, 22:15

I'm certainly going to aim for republic, although looks like its going to be a ways off as yet. have the game and looking over it - probably won't finish tonight - aiming for Friday night atm

Scouse Gits · February 27, 2003, 23:35

Quote:

Originally posted by obiwan18
My choices would be Demo/Fundy rather than Republic or Communism.

obiwan 18 you are quite right. Fundy would be better than Commie. I am forgetting the 0% rule

Commie in this game would be the very Dark Side.

Democracy would be great and avoids the need for 8 caravans to build SoL, but to reach it we need around 12 techs. As Hydey collected Alphabet and Code of Laws from the Zulus I think Republic is only 3 advances away. (Writing/Literacy/Republic)

Apart from this - the major reservation about Democracy is the "double red" unhappiness caused by each boat out of port until Magnetism allows galleons. This can be obviated by Shake's (homing all the ships there) but further delays the chains of vessels needed to make an impact upon overseas trade and our research.

Fundy would make us happy and rich but would not make us grow - except by military conquest. The temptation would be to seize a fat AI empire to gain a greater population. This is a legitimate tactic, except we need all the fat AI empires under foreign flags to maximise trade/science.

Republic is around the corner! A compact empire (lower corruption) of a dozen cities growing to 8 then 12+ still has my vote!

Next Succession Game we could run on similar lines to this one, except that after reaching the key advances like Republic and Democracy those who wish to play in the goverment of their choice split away and attempt to beat the other group(s)

---------------------

SG(2)

Hydey · February 28, 2003, 05:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits

Next Succession Game we could run on similar lines to this one, except that after reaching the key advances like Republic and Democracy those who wish to play in the goverment of their choice split away and attempt to beat the other group(s)

---------------------

SG(2)

good idea, I like it

Scouse Gits · February 28, 2003, 06:00

A damn hard question ...

IMHO

Monarchy perfectly feasible - available earlyish - poor man's Fundy - rather routine game
Republic almost certainly the best bet for the earliest landing - boring as hell
Democracy more challenging, but might actually beat Republic to the Stars
Fundamentalism a massive fight back from the bottom of the tree to ultimate domination and ~~conquest~~ AC (woops) - great fun
Communism same as Fundy without money - a real challenge

As to my vote - what the h*ll do you expect a RAR to say? Fundy of course

SG[1]

-Jrabbit · February 28, 2003, 10:32

Perfectionist Republic with SSC and Shakespeare

Ben Kenobi · February 28, 2003, 16:32

That's not too bad.

3 so far for Fundy:

Git [1], Git(2), and myself. What about Hydey? Do you favour a Fundy government?

Quote:

good idea, I like it

as do I.

If we lose the vote, we can see how we do against the perfectionists.

Six Thousand Year Old Man · February 28, 2003, 19:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Republic is around the corner! A compact empire (lower corruption) of a dozen cities growing to 8 then 12+ still has my vote!
---------------------

SG(2)

@obiwan - Are you sure you're not actually rooting for Communism... I mean, the way you count votes...

-Jrabbit · February 28, 2003, 19:28

nice catch, STYOM

Ben Kenobi · February 28, 2003, 19:41

Darn Gits.

Hard enough keeping track of who's who.

We should have a rule, only one vote per login.

Besides this ain't no Demo game. SG(2) has already played his turn.

Six Thousand Year Old Man · February 28, 2003, 20:02

Alright... as usual, carefully reasoned argument and rational discussion fails miserably in an attempt to resolve a problem.

I know what's going to happen if we learn Republic in my turns...

... and that's what succession games are all about, isn't it?

Scouse Gits · February 28, 2003, 20:41

Although I would happily concur with the youg Jedi's sentiments - I fear my alter ego has very little love for Fundy!!!!!! and has cast his vote firmly for the boring as hell option of Republic....

[1]

Fundy is splendid in the right circumstances, in this game we win by space ship and unless we get into a sensible form of government quickly we shall spend centuries counting our wasted shields and corrupted arrows!

(2)

However, just think of the fun we shall have destroying the Universe

in fundy before we launch our successful vessel sometime late in the 23rd century!

[1]

No! NO! not another game with hordes of vet crooks wandering aimlessly towards some AI capital built on a river with its city walls... Now that IS BORING! In Fundy you're lucky if you have enough science to potty train your child!

(2)

NONSENSE!!! We all know that a landing in the 23rd century will seriously extend our Succession Game!

[1]

Well - errrm - the gits are only using one post so no-one can accuse us of

ing, but we thought you would like to join in the real dialogue of a Friday night... p.s. we are both showing off because we have a (seriously confused) friend with us - a potential SG<4>

(2)

The SGs not reading from quite the same page

SCG · February 28, 2003, 22:38

first thoughts: 8 cities, only one over size 2, so Arkwright is likely the only Xinning city for the time being. only 2 4-legged units for exploring atm, of course losing a horsie hurt. Settlers are ready to build, but are a really long way from home. Still, having a city out there will help with further exploration - we really need to meet a couple more civs to see what sort of techs they have. Writing is 45/136, and we have 1 more turn of xinning before our scientists need to take a 50 year lunch break. Not much gold, and only 1 city outside of Arkwright with more than 2 production. We have a settler on Goto? Hmm, settler is en route to Bessemer - looks primed for a 2nd Xinning city

(doh, he said that in his log) For Republic, we need the other 2/3s of Writing, and Literacy. for Trade, we need Currency. Science Advisor indicates we won't be able to research Literacy, but should be able to to Currency.

Barb Chariot still haunting our core cities. Hmm, must be a 2nd chariot - there is a phalanx in Trevithick that has a sliver of red. consider move warrior out of Newcomen onto mountains since can stay happy, make plans to move Newcomen's settlers to build city in Bessemer early. Worry that i may not be able to clean up Hydey's mess

not enough gold to rush a phalanx.

pause for thought already and i haven't even played a round yet. we net 9 gold per turn. we can get an extra 15 if i Xin with tax men instead. We have mountains outside Newcomen, but a warrior isn't likely to survive an attack there, especially not fortified. Still we need time to save the empire. Rearrange workers there to get enough luxuries to move warriors out and extra gold, move warrior out of Trevithick, sleep phalanx for faster healing, xin with Tax, gold up to +26 - that will be enough to rush a phalanx next turn.

1250: Chariot kills warrior on mountain, down to yellow, 2 more barb archers land on southernmost coast. Zulus insist we have violated the territory of Ulundi (size 2, by our horsie), try to decide where to send the horsie, build city with transplanted settlers (Pull out my copy of Railroad Tycoon II

) and found Iron Duke - already unhappy, so move chariot indoors, start warrior, check other cities. tickle warrior towards phalanx, buy phalanx - ponder horsie briefly, decide on horsie. move Trev warrior closer to Newcomen, on hills. Retreat warrior from new pirates hoping they will stay put.
1200: one barb archer vanishes along with pirate ship, barb chariot moves as expected onto mountain. risk horseman on damaged chariot (if doesn't win, will risk warrior) horseman wins

- no vet

retreat other warrior back to Trevithick, finish Temple. Xin in Arkwright
1150: almost Xin in Bessemer, 3rd settler out of movement, but increases gold by 1 and will xin for 2 turns next, rush warrior at Iron Duke so chariot can explore. horseman stumbles into Zimbabwe.
1100: Zulu's complain again, horseman retreats and runs squarely into Bapedi. more tickling of warriors. work towards connecting roads for better defense while looking towards Trevithick as the next Xinning city. Bessimer starts Xinning
1050: horsie forced to retreat to Iron Duke by Zulus, other barb pirate vanishes, hut (supported chariot), switch horseman prod in Iron Duke to temple, not enough funds to keep Bessimer happy after xinning, so change 2 scientists to taxmen to finish temple next turn
1000: rush temple in bessimer, meet Germans - they have mapmaking and writing! exchange Masonry, Mysticism, gift Warrior Code, share maps, have a few beers, trade war stories and get tribute of 150 gold!!!! Give pat on the back and go our separate ways

, get brave and demand tribute from Zulus and get 75 gold

ponder how much tickling to do. Also ponder whether to change Great Wall to Library in Arkwright. Read through previous posts for ideas. Library would allow 22 beakers Xinning instead of 15 beakers, but we also don't have trade yet for caravans. Science says we are the most enlightened... Decide on compromise - switch great wall to Pyramids, and plan to library in Bessemer next turn. Will be 2 turns before it matters there since turn we start it will only bring 1 shield. Beakers at 180 instead of 136 now for what ever tech we choose next.
975: choice of Currency, Iron Working, Monarchy, Pottery, and The Wheel - choose Currency to work towards trade, some exploring. Ponder whether Trevithick is best place for 3rd Xin city. Decide it is with the lots of grassland (and plenty of grassland for food

)
950: spot 2 huts in exploration, germans likely to beat me to 3rd
925: germans get archer from hut, we get 50 gold... and

Iron Working - beakers go from 180 to 220. Again pause for thought. We have almost 300 gold now, and have been trying to ration that on tickling only once a city has 6+ shields in a build row. Especially when cities like The huntsman gain more from an unroaded grassland than it does from silk (both shields and all 3 trade arrows are lost in corruption), too much gold to demand tribute, pondering courthouse, decide to rush library in Bessemer, tickle to complete warrior and horseman, tickle towards more settlers. down to 97 gold
900: start trireme in Bessemer, ponder what else to rush - decide to save gold to rush library in Trevithick once 2 more settlers can get there.
875: key civ has gained a tech, beakers to 198. ponder if we can get by with a taxman or not, pull out the accessibility magnifier, decide calculating how much science we have built up is simpler = we have 181/198, so 4 scientists bring to 199 - will use 1 taxman, rush temple in Iron Duke, down to 48 gold, both germans and zulus are uncooperative, decide against demands at this time.
850: Zulus show off Polytheism, we discover Currency, choose Literacy, do a little more exploring

Final Thoughts: We have 2 Xinning cities on alternate turns, should have a 3rd in a couple more turns. With a library, Bessemer brings in 22 when Xinning, Arkwright does 15. I have a library started in Trevithick (size 3) and 2 settlers in range (one is about 3 turns into roading the gold if next person decides to move them). We are 1 tech from trade, and after literacy, 1 tech from Republic. As is, we are 13 turns from Literacy.

The horseman west of The huntsman i'm aiming for the south pole as it seems to be connected. Also, for the germans, they have founded Hamburg shortly after we traded maps, perhaps on the buffalo.

anyway, hope i didn't get too far off course

Does the fact that i posted in the wrong succession game mean i got way off course? *wonders if he is going to get sentenced to Iron Duke, or an as yet unbuilt Institute*

SCG · February 28, 2003, 22:43

and before i start my new career in unpaid engine maintenence, here's the zip

Bloody Monk · March 1, 2003, 02:51

No way I can actually look into the game tonight, but just had to say that is a damn fine log!!

It is very interesting to follow another's thought path.

Wishing I had the proficiency to compose something of that depth and length in under a week...

Good turns.

Monk

Six Thousand Year Old Man · March 1, 2003, 10:56

I used to write long logs like that, but only so I could insert double entendres and extra smilies into the story

Good work SCG.

I have the save downloaded... I'll play this weekend.

SCG · March 1, 2003, 11:19

Glad to see people (so far) are happy with the results

couple of other thoughts - with the phalanx in The huntsman, one less shield is lost from corruption. Also, we can get extra shield production in Trevithick if it Xins on the turns Arkwright re-foods and visa versa. Also, we are 123/200(300) towards whatever Wonder we want to build - pyramids or lighthouse would seem more worthwhile than colossus, oracle or Great Wall, and we are 10 turns from completing a 200 shield wonder, and without Trevithick Xinning, we are 13 turns from the Great Wall (300 shields) if that is what is going to eventually get built there.

Also, we're likely going to have to research The Republic on our own - I don't see any of the current AI civs choosing that as a path quickly, so if we can get literacy from the Germans or a hut, that would but I'd be hesitant for trading for other techs. Maybe we'll get Republic from more huts

I'd really like to be in Republic before we get the Great Library built if possible

Also keep in mind Marco Polo's Embassy is 200 shields.

Scouse Gits · March 1, 2003, 17:21

Quote:

Originally posted by SCG
I'd really like to be in Republic before we get the Great Library built if possible

Also keep in mind Marco Polo's Embassy is 200 shields.

Anybody who even thinks about The Great Library will go to The Institute for lessons on how to use 6 caravans properly.

------------------------------------

SG(2)

Ben Kenobi · March 1, 2003, 17:37

SGP:

Great turns. Having writing helps enormously;
we can bribe barbs to consolidate flimsy defenses.

Marco Polo's should be built, not the Great Library.

I'd favour Trade over Republic, just because caravans are such a necessary part of this game.

Once we build MPE- then we can trade with all the ai civs, and build up our key civ to reduce beaker counts.

TECHS LEFT TO DEMO SoL:

Literacy
Republic
Trade
Banking

The Wheel
Engineering
Invention
Democracy!

8 techs left.
2 for Republic.
Think you can get there SG[1]?

SCG · March 1, 2003, 17:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits

Anybody who even thinks about The Great Library will go to The Institute for lessons on how to use 6 caravans properly.

------------------------------------

SG(2)

hehe, i was continuing the building of whatever wonder was started by you

(pre-HG was it?) Great Library wouldn't be anywhere near my first choice, but i got the idea from reading some of the discussions that someone may decide to build it so gave some pointers on holding off if we do. And we are very likely to get a 200 shield wonder built before we discover trade, thereby making it kind of hard to use caravans.

Anyway, I've already volunteered to go to the Institute for posting in the wrong succession thread initially

Six Thousand Year Old Man · March 1, 2003, 18:01

1. obiwan18

2. SG(2)

3. Hydey

4. SCG

5. STYOM

6. SG[1]

7. Bloody Monk

8. Jrabbit

9. La Fayette

10. Vlad Antlerkov

Several cities are down now - since there are a lot of us, let's drop to 12 turns.

Six Thousand Year Old Man · March 1, 2003, 18:03

850 BC, STYOM comes to power.

Consults advisors. We're #1 in Science, quoth the Toga'd geek. The others spout the usual gibberish.

We lead in Demographics and our 2 Xinning (or Xin-ready) cities are the #1 and #2 cities in the world. All in all, life could be worse.

All in all, we'd probably like HG. Alas, we have no Pottery, and no pots to p- well, you get the idea.

Ask both the Germans and Zulus to exchange knowledge - neither is willing.

We're low on food in both Xin cities as well, so these may be lean turns for science

2 techs needed to get to Republic, 10 needed to get to Democracy.

825: Wizards fired in Arkwright and they go back to the land.
Hut sighted by Chariot. Wizards rehired in Bessemer.

Toynbee rates us happiest, Zulus 2nd, Germans 6th. I think it must be the marching

800: Wizards fired in Bessemer, rehired in Arkwright. This continues indefinitely. Advanced Tribe Lion discovered (follows from Iron Duke).

WnW changes production from Settler to Horsemen, to stave off pending unrest.

775: Zulus gift 100 g. Library rushed in Trevithick.
Sioux start Hanging Gardens

750: Hut located SW of The huntsmen. Belatedly, workers from Newcomen start working roaded gold.

725: Trevithick begins to Xin. With both Bessemer and Trevithick Xinning, Science=6 turns. Not bad

We could potentially get Crompton or possibly Hargreaves Xinning as well - Crompton has access to 2 food specials and 3 grass squares without (neccessarily) infringing on Arkwright's food supply. Hargreaves has a whale, a Wheat, and 2 grass squares - at size 5 the food surplus would be 1. Realistically, it'll be hard to come up with the Settlers to bump either city up to Size 5, though - most of the nearby cities are already Xinning.

Trevithick can Xin for 3 turns before the pantry is bare.

50 gold from Zulus, 25 from Germans. Germans now 7th on PG, incidentally.

Hut - supported Legion

700: Science=6 turns with Trevithick and Arkwright Xinning.

675: ZULUS GIFT US POTTERY

Germans gift 25 g.
Science now 7 turns, but who cares

Production in Arkwright changed to HG.

650: Trevithick and Bessemer forced to discontinue Xinning. The cycle is Arkwright this turn, T & B the next.

Germans gift 25 g, Zulus gift Polytheism

I didn't think they had any more techs. No more gift demands until we finish Literacy, anyway.

Legion opens hut full of barbarian horses, SW of The huntsmen.

Celts start Colossus, Zulus start Pyramids.

625: Science 7 turns, still.
Iron Duke, The huntsmen and Hargreaves are close to growing - workers rearranged to slow growth.

600: Barbarian uprising near Trevithick!

Crompton production changed to Elephant and rushed.

575: Zulus boast about Mathematics. Trevithick Phalanx fends off barbarian Horsemen.

550: Literacy discovered; research begins on Republic

Science=22 turns. HG rushed as a few of our cities are nearing size 3 and potential disorder issues, now.

There are some horsemen hanging around near Trevithick. I mistakenly

let a few cities close in on size 3 without Temples, so HG is rushed. After rushing, I realized it was my last turn, so it's not too late to change it

Republic is in sight!

Six Thousand Year Old Man · March 1, 2003, 18:06

...

SCG · March 1, 2003, 19:08

very nice set of turns

It does create a couple of interesting possibilities for Arkwright if we build HG there. it will celebrate, even with 2 scientists, and will produce excess food with 1 scientist. certainly that is less science, but more gold and production and we could get a library quicker and possibly even size 6. Probably not worth it with republic in range, but would be something to consider. Also if we do get republic this set of turns, we could celebrate up to size 8 and start xinning from there

Also, it looks like we may want to get a couple more cities south of Trevithick with all those barbs spawning down there.

We may want to get that sentried warrior or another unit over to the trireme for exploring the south pole - we're likely to get quite a few huts down there.

One other side note - anyone notice that Iron Duke is listed before The huntsman on the city list dispite being (re)founded after The huntsman was discovered? I've not done that many relocations of cities, and only recently started to use NON settlers for cities, so don't know if this is normal. Probably not that useful infowise, but it may have its uses somewhere

Anyway, 59 beakers currently every 2 turns, 66 once (if) Arkwright builds a library next. and 330 beakers needed, and presumably 22/330 beakers stored up as literacy was discovered this turn, and Bessemer produced 22 Xinning. Means with no new techs, and no dropping from supreme, 11 turns with no library in Arkwright. 10 turns if library is rushed in Arkwright at the start of next Xinning.

question now is, does [1] want to put us in Repubic?

Scouse Gits · March 1, 2003, 22:35

STYOM - A productive session

[1] Will be delighted to see 200 shields in the box for his flowers

... as to Republic - watch this space

-------------------------

SG(2)

Six Thousand Year Old Man · March 2, 2003, 11:32

Put it this way - if SG[1] can get us to Fundy in his turns, then by all means, Fundy away

If not I have full confidence in either the Monk or the Rabbit to do the right thing

- side note - I am away from home, please skip me if my turn comes up again before March 12 (unlikely but you never know...)