Too close for comfort? A greater appreciation for an Allied WW2 Victory

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Main_Brain

Personally I think the Fact that the Training Fields in Germany were quite dangerous played into this. I mean Gigantic US Bomber fleets.. doesnt sound like a fun place to learn Flying.
Also dont forget that the Us is *slightly* bigger ;=)

I think that this is an excellent point. The luxury of having an ocean between you and the front is uniquely American. Not to mention that US had twice the population and UK had an empire to draw from. Also, not to mention that US had abundance of natural resources to draw from, etc...

[Ned]

Originally posted by Main_Brain

Personally I think the Fact that the Training Fields in Germany were quite dangerous played into this. I mean Gigantic US Bomber fleets.. doesnt sound like a fun place to learn Flying.
Also dont forget that the Us is *slightly* bigger ;=)

Which only meant that German aces had to be twice as good as American aces to stay even. Even a dumbkopf could figure this out.

Instead, US pilots were constantly reporting turkey shoots against inexperienced German pilots. Ditto the Pacific Theater.

I don't know about the German training fields being bombed by the US Air Force. I think this would have been a signal to redouble the efforts on air defense.

The Japanese had no such excuse, though, concerning bombing training fields.

[Dauphin]

I'd imagine Germany's problem stemmed from the fact that they had so little fuel to spare that German pilots had no flight experience except for active combat flights, whereas most Allied pilots would have had quite a few hours of flight experience before combat.

[Ned]

Big Crunch, Certainly this was true after the Allies had taken out Ploesti. But to the extent it was true even before then, which is quite possible, it simply indicates that Germany could not have won the war regardless of how high tech her machines were. They had no fuel.

[Sandman]

Two points on the German pilot quality issue.

1. If German over-innovating spread to aircraft, then pilots would find it difficult to adapt each time a new version came out.

2. Also related to the over-innovation, the Germans may have lost many experienced test pilots when trying out their wacky designs.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ned
Instead, US pilots were constantly reporting turkey shoots against inexperienced German pilots. Ditto the Pacific Theater.
.

I don't recall any turkey shoots against inexperienced German pilots. Any additional info.

IIRC, there was never a problem with the quality of German pilots until 45.

The Japanese were hampered by fuel shortages.

The Brits had an established training program, the British Commonwealth Air Training Programme in Canada. That gave them the same advantage of a safe training area that the Americans had.

[Joseph]

The Warplanes of the Third Reich by William Green.
I will just list the Jets.

Arado AR 234 2 engines 461mph a bomber
Arado, AR 234c 4 engines 515mph a bomber
Bachem BA 349 a rocket intercep. 495 mph
Blohm and Voss BV 155 2 engines 404 mph fighter
Fieseler FI 103 (V-1) 497mph at 8,000 ft.
Gotha Go 229 (Stealth come alive) 607mph at 39,370 ft 2 engines
Heinkel HE 280 2 Eng. 508mph
Heinkel HE 162 1 Eng. 521mph
Heinkel HE 132A 1 Eng. did not fly.
Junkers JU 287 V1 4 Eng. forward sweep wing. A bomber to be. 347mph
Junkers Ju 287 V2 6 Eng. was being built when Russian overran the factory.
Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet rocket fighter 596mph did see combat.
Messerschmitt Me 262 2 Eng. 540mph
Messerschmitt Me 263 The prototype was captured by Soviet intact.
Messerschmitt Me 328 an inexpensive, expendable single sortie escort fighter. 2 pulse jets 434mph Did not see action, but was flying
Messerschmitt P 1101 1 Eng. 610 mph ext. First few as X-5 USAF 705 mph and first variable sweep. You can see where we got our F-86 and the Soviet MIG-9/11

[Joseph]

The British Metor did fight in the last days of WWII chasing the V-1s.
The US P-80 was ready. I think the US did not want to loose one or let the Soviet know that we had one. I supect the Soviet knew very well we had a jet fighter because they knew about the A-bomb from the start.

[GePap]

MOre Jet fighters would not have turned the tide in the Eastern Front, were the Wehrmacht was evicerated, they would not have won the Battle for the Atlantic, and they would not have helped the Germans aquire the necessary raw materials, specially oil, it needed to win the war.

The importance of strategic bombing against Germany is overrated. More jets might have cut back bombing of factoires far from the front, but they would not have helped Germany aquire control of the air over the battlefields or stopped tactical and mdedium bombers form cutting supply lines.

By Jan 1943 the question was when germany would loose, not whether.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Tingkai


I don't recall any turkey shoots against inexperienced German pilots. Any additional info.

IIRC, there was never a problem with the quality of German pilots until 45.

The Japanese were hampered by fuel shortages.

The Brits had an established training program, the British Commonwealth Air Training Programme in Canada. That gave them the same advantage of a safe training area that the Americans had.

You may be right on when the German airforce fell apart. I will pay more attention to this point the next time it comes up.

But, from my understanding the Germans did not have enough pilots to put up much of a fight from mid-1944 onwards. This is when the Mustang began to dominate. (I only half recall the dates.)

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap
MOre Jet fighters would not have turned the tide in the Eastern Front, were the Wehrmacht was evicerated, they would not have won the Battle for the Atlantic, and they would not have helped the Germans aquire the necessary raw materials, specially oil, it needed to win the war.

The importance of strategic bombing against Germany is overrated. More jets might have cut back bombing of factoires far from the front, but they would not have helped Germany aquire control of the air over the battlefields or stopped tactical and mdedium bombers form cutting supply lines.

By Jan 1943 the question was when germany would loose, not whether.

As Georing said, had they mass produced the ME 262 fighter from 1942 on, the Germans may have controlled the skies, not the other way around. Who knows what German air superiority would have meant. Air power was often decisive in defeating the German army which across the board had superior equipment to the Allies.

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Ned


You may be right on when the German airforce fell apart. I will pay more attention to this point the next time it comes up.

But, from my understanding the Germans did not have enough pilots to put up much of a fight from mid-1944 onwards. This is when the Mustang began to dominate. (I only half recall the dates.)

If my memory serve me well the Germans had only 2 fighter to cover D-Day. The rest of their fighter were coving Germany itself. The USAAF had every thing they needed.

[GePap]

And the Germans would have flown these planes with what oil? Oil was the critical factor. to train pilots you need to give them flying time. flying time means using fuel . If you have limited fuel, you cut back on training time of pilots.

I trust Goering's word as far as I can thrown him, and we all know how heavyset a man he was. He has self-serving reasons to say what he said, one fo them is not admitting that invading the SU and declaring war on the Us were immensely stupid dieas and sealed their fate.
What would control fo the air had meant in the East? The ME-262 was a great interceptor, not a great dogfighter, and a lousy tactical support aircraft. 2000 ME-262's a year would not have allowed the Germans to overcome the masses of Soviet armor, or allowed them to stop the US from shipping millions of men and millions of tons of equipment accross the ocean.

Perhaps the Germans could ahv amde the war a few month longer: but Jets would not have led to victory.

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap
And the Germans would have flown these planes with what oil? Oil was the critical factor. to train pilots you need to give them flying time. flying time means using fuel . If you have limited fuel, you cut back on training time of pilots.

I trust Goering's word as far as I can thrown him, and we all know how heavyset a man he was. He has self-serving reasons to say what he said, one fo them is not admitting that invading the SU and declaring war on the Us were immensely stupid dieas and sealed their fate.
What would control fo the air had meant in the East? The ME-262 was a great interceptor, not a great dogfighter, and a lousy tactical support aircraft. 2000 ME-262's a year would not have allowed the Germans to overcome the masses of Soviet armor, or allowed them to stop the US from shipping millions of men and millions of tons of equipment accross the ocean.

Perhaps the Germans could ahv amde the war a few month longer: but Jets would not have led to victory.

Well, GePap, you are right about the jets being useless as tactical air support. However, the Germans still had dive bombers and wire guided missles. If they air superiority, they could have used these to great effect against Russian and US armor.

But you are right, even before Ploesti was destroyed, they didn't have enough fuel. This makes one pause and consider that they should have done a lot more to secure the Mediterranean before they went on their adventures in the SU. Lybia could have been the oil supply.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ned
But, from my understanding the Germans did not have enough pilots to put up much of a fight from mid-1944 onwards. This is when the Mustang began to dominate. (I only half recall the dates.)

Assuming this is true, and it probably is, by mid-1944 the Germans did not have a secure training area. Allied fighters, including a/c other than the Mustang, were doing sorties throughout Germany. Pilots in training risked being shot down on their first solo.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ned
As Georing said, had they mass produced the ME 262 fighter from 1942 on, the Germans may have controlled the skies, not the other way around.

Goering also said Brit bombers would never get through to Berlin.

[Tattila the Hun]

I recently read a book by Heinz Kröger, one of Germany's top "four engine downers", ie. heavy bomber killers. It was stated in the book, that in the final years of the war, allies resorted in quite nasty tactics to rid Luftwaffe from it's best pilots, eg. shooting parachuted pilots on their descent. Also, the jagdfliegerschüle were effectively emptied of their instructors, who were assigned to frontline squadrons. "The great hunt", the book is called, has some interesting stories about the Me-109 actually bombing the mighty eight's formations with regular bombs.

I was under the impression that japanese jets were mostly copies of german designs, the Me-262 and 163 most notably...

Some other interesting consept include the Natter, a plane somewhat similar to Komet, with rockets as ammunition on the plane's nose, or the manned (!) V-1 rocket (never used). The pilot would bail out at the last moment, he's chances of survival being somewhat slim. Then there's the Heinkel He-160, Volksjäger, plywood design, meant for Hitlerjugend to fly after few glider lessons... A high powered jet fighter, usually quite fatal even for the more experienced test pilot... And then there was a rocket, launched from the top of the fighter by the shadow of the bomber...

Anybody who is interested in the rise and fall of Luftwaffe, and their machines, and the wacky designs that were to be, should read a book called "Hitler's Luftwaffe", author(s) currently escaping me.

Other what if's include the Graf Zeppelin, an aircraft carrier. Can't really say what an impact it might have had on the batte of britain and such...

And the Maus. Lynx, Puma, Panther, Tiger... And the biggest of them, the Maus. Atleast they had sense of humour... Quite unconvenient machine, usually quite stuck in mud or something, and breaking the pawement of roads, all because it was (very) heavy.

Them german's indeed had some interesting designs...

If anybody has any good links to interesting site's concerning the techs and applications and what if's, do post them.

[TheStinger]

IF ME262s had been mass produced then Britain would have speeded up the introduction of the Meteor which IIRC 1st flew in 1940.

[CerberusIV]

Interesting stuff but there is a wide range of opinion on how useful the german wonder weapons would have been. I have an interesting book on the subject which covers a much wider range than has been mentioned here. I will post the title and reference when I get home this evening.

A few thoughts do occur to me.

The germans built two nuclear piles, both were rather small to function effectively and they were some years from a working atomic bomb. They also didn't have a heavy bomber that would effectively deliver such a weapon. It took the US nearly 10 years to get nuclear weapons to a size and weight that smaller aircraft could use.

The Luftwaffe problem was partly that the factories were producing obselete designs like the Me109 which was fairly hopeless against P51's. Once the USAAF had long range fighters it was able to destroy the factories making fuel out of oil shale by precise daylight strikes. End of fuel, end of Luftwaffe. Even a mass suicide ramming attempt failed to make any impact on the B17 fleets.

The weapon that might have had a significant impact but came too late was the type XXI U-boat. The UK may have been America's unsinkable aircraft carrier but cutting the maritime supply route, especially oil tankers would have crippled the air units operating out of the UK.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

During the war, the Allies had known that the Germans were developing the bomb. The efforts were repeatedly thwarted by commando actions and bombing raids. OTOH, I do not know that Japan was trying to make it. However, it will require more evidence than a show on History Channel.

This was true, sort of. The Japanese were way behind, and as almost an afterthought the Germans sent some of their research in a U-boat to Japan. Much too little, much too late.

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That was not Japan's main problem. Their main problem was they ran out of pilots. Technology couldn't have helped there.

Quite so.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Still, Germany had some magnificent flyers, including the greatest ace of all time, Erich Hartmann.

And who could forget the dashing Tommy Hitlerflieger?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by GePap
And the Germans would have flown these planes with what oil? Oil was the critical factor. to train pilots you need to give them flying time. flying time means using fuel . If you have limited fuel, you cut back on training time of pilots.

I trust Goering's word as far as I can thrown him, and we all know how heavyset a man he was. He has self-serving reasons to say what he said, one fo them is not admitting that invading the SU and declaring war on the Us were immensely stupid dieas and sealed their fate.
What would control fo the air had meant in the East? The ME-262 was a great interceptor, not a great dogfighter, and a lousy tactical support aircraft. 2000 ME-262's a year would not have allowed the Germans to overcome the masses of Soviet armor, or allowed them to stop the US from shipping millions of men and millions of tons of equipment accross the ocean.

Perhaps the Germans could ahv amde the war a few month longer: but Jets would not have led to victory.

Very good post that cuts to the heart of the matter. The only thing you neglected to mention is that jets use a lot more fuel than prop driven planes.

[CerberusIV]

For a good rundown of the German secret weapons that actually made it off the drawing board try

German Secret Weapons of the Second World War
Ian V Hogg
ISBN 1-85367-325-0

The reasons given why so many German wonderweapons did not appear in sufficient numbers in time is enlightening.

For an impression of the last days of the Luftwaffe try

KG200 The True Story
P W Stahl
ISBN 0 531 03729 0

[Joseph]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
I recently read a book by Heinz Kröger, one of Germany's top "four engine downers", ie. heavy bomber killers. It was stated in the book, that in the final years of the war, allies resorted in quite nasty tactics to rid Luftwaffe from it's best pilots, eg. shooting parachuted pilots on their descent.

This statement, I do not believe it. Over the years I have read many books and yet to read that we shot down pilots while in parachute

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Joseph
This statement, I do not believe it. Over the years I have read many books and yet to read that we shot down pilots while in parachute

I've read reports of such before, including an article in WWII magazine. Hell, we shot surrendered German soldiers, so I'm sure there was some shooting of pilots.