View Poll Results: What do you think of national retail sales tax?
This is a great idea! Do it now! 5 21.74%
This is a great idea in theory, but no feasible 2 8.70%
This idea is stupid. It can never work 11 47.83%
We should pay no taxes whatsoever 3 13.04%
Only bananas should be taxed 2 8.70%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
Old February 26, 2003, 00:19   #61
Berzerker
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Berzerker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:21
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: topeka, kansas,USA
Posts: 8,164
UR - The same as when liberals seek to oppress the rich in the name of helping the poor, express my opposition at the ballot box until it becomes legal to shoot the tax man.
Berzerker is offline  
Old February 26, 2003, 00:29   #62
Ramo
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ramo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:21
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
Quote:
Am I "oppressing" a would-be murderer if I defend myself? If not, then it's not "force" that is oppressive, but the initiation of force, true?
On second thought, "oppression" isn't an apt word as it has necessarily negative connotations. Pretend I used "authoritarian" instead of "oppressive" instead.

But no, I don't agree. I don't see the distinction between the initiation of force and non-initiated force as important. If you hit me and go home, and then I hit you, my action is not morally superior to yours despite you initiating force.

What I see as important is the distinction between a greater force and a lesser force. Forcing a person not to hurt/kill you is a smaller constraint than forcing a person to be hurt/killed.

Quote:
Authority is not the problem, mis-placed authority is the problem.
Well, yes, that's what I'm saying. But authority is justified if and only if it ultimately minimizes authority.

Quote:
We all have the authority to defend ourselves from attack,
Not really. If someone is stronger than me (and everyone willing and able to protect me), I don't have the authority to defend myself.

Quote:
therefore government, on our behalf, has that authority.
Are you saying that you think governments have you moral right to throw people into prisons - taking away all their freedoms - because you think everyone has the moral right to defend themselves? You'll have to explain that one.

If I steal Sava's computer, does he have the moral right to steal your car?

Quote:
And how does the use of force to compel a rich or poor person to hand over their money - taxes, progressive or not - reduce this "net authority" if that person is using no force (authority) against others?
I would say that there aren't any people who have no authority over anone else. But reasonable police and prisons, welfare programs, and the like can reduce more authority than it takes to fund them.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Ramo is offline  
Old February 26, 2003, 00:30   #63
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:21
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
The problem here is there are a lot more poor people than rich people. Hence, Libertarianism is not a liberator, rather, an oppressor.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
Urban Ranger is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 16:21.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team