Overcoming Parity in the Medival Age

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Arrian
Other factors include what AI civ(s) are likely to build the ones you don't get. If you're thinking about conquering a neighbor, it sure would be nice if they built a key wonder, huh?

Yes, it certainly would, especially if you're facing a non-militaristic, non-industrious civ such as India, Korea, etc. This would definitely make Sun Tzu's my top choice.

On the other hand, even as a Religious civ, if I was bordered by the warlike, I'd be tempted to build Sun Tzu's, just to keep up with the joneses, as they say.

Thankfully, as I play Regent, I've never been placed in the hard position of picking one over the other. Obviously, JS Bach's has such a wonderful effect that I will always make sacrifices to procure this wonder, but there are so many factors it's a hard choice to make.

Assuming you CAN make war against your neighbors effectively, I assume you would be able to take Adam Smith's later, so I wouldn't make that a top priority.

I guess it all depends when within the medival age you're going to do your conquering, if at all.

Let me repose the question, then: if you are playing as a non-militaristic civ, and you are bordered by an equal number of militaristic and non-militaristic civs, which wonder do you build?

[Mountain Sage]

Only one Wonder?

As commercial, I'd say Adam Smith. Add Wall Street and

This extra gold helps to:

- Keep the Tech research at 4-5turns/Tech;
- To finance a big military;
- To finance all city improvements you may dream;
- To keep people happy (luxury slider);
- To buy Techs and/or luxuries;
- To rush improvements (as factories).
- To look smugly at your accumulated wealth.

Of course, somebody would say that military conquest can also achieve all of this...

At the end, it will be the particular game you are in and your strategy which will decide for you what to will build.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Ansolutely.

I guess I'd probably make Sun Tzu's my first pick overall, unless I have insignificant conquests ahead of me, if I have a medival era UU I want to put to good use. Otherwise I'd most likely go with JS Bach's, and hope to capture Adam Smith's later.

I was going to try to make a list of each civ and what wonder I would aim for, assuming cultural linking is on and I've got at least 2 bordering neighbors, at military/economic/cultural/tech parity with me.

But I'm at work, and can't concentrate on such a task.

So someone else do it!

[Theseus]

I'm still catching up... this is a Tony-the-Tiger GRREEAAATTT!! thread!

gf
pre-emptive revenge
MAR

Excellent, Smithers.

Back to the original question, the two things that I use the most often:

* Military concentration, AKA Arrianism (or maybe Theseusism). I don;t really mind the same era match-ups, especially in SP. Knights against Muskets, Cavs against Rifles? Fine. Heck, I'll take on Infantry with Cavs, as long as I'm not so far behind I can't manage a decent force of arty to, uh, sautee the dogfaces a little first. Be warned, I'm talkin' hyper-aggression and Powell Doctrine overwhelming force here... gimme 50-60 Cavs to play with... and that's on a STANDARD map. Huge? Sheesh.

* The Comprador. (This is very cool... I remembered it from some old fiction I had read, e.g., James Clavell's Taipan, and cross-checked it to Civ3...). This is the trader / researcher trick... you want to sell everything you can, even if that includes buying first. All resources, maps, techs... SOLD! Keep the other civs broke. Get to the industrial corridor first, preferably with a judicious GW... game over.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

"Powell Doctrine"... sheesh... Bludgeon Your Weak Enemy Doctrine...

Not to disparage this as a Civ tactic, of course.

I wanted to raise a question, or rather, discuss a scenario, that is related to this thread.

Say you are playing as, I don't know, the Mongols, or Zulus, or some such agressive civ, and you come to dominate your continent by the mid-medival era... but overseas, some jerk-offs such as the Iroquois are building all the wonders YOU want, and you haven't made contact with them yet (no lighthouse, no navigation yet).

So, in other words, you're the biggest baddest civ in the world, but overseas you're quite irrelevant.

This puts you at "parity" with a smaller neighbor, and actually threatens that you be left behind.

What do you do then?

[Theseus]

[Konquest02]

I think Theseus sums it all... Send galleys out to find the other continent, build A LOT of troops (ie. knights or even Cavalry if you beelined for it) and kick the a$$ out of the Iroquois...

Any objections...?

--Kon---

[Master Zen]

Now If you're playing the Vikings... makes the whole thing much easier.

I usually don't start overseas wars until the late-industrial age (tanks).

There are many non-military methods of avoiding getting too far behind an offshore power. Give all $$$ it takes for wars among that nation and its neighbours.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Konquest02
I think Theseus sums it all... Send galleys out to find the other continent, build A LOT of troops (ie. knights or even Cavalry if you beelined for it) and kick the a$$ out of the Iroquois...

Any objections...?

--Kon---

Yes... I play on huge maps... galleys are the de-facto most worthless unit around.

By the time I get my galleons, the Iroquois will have musketmen... perhaps they'll even have MT, with their advanced tech.

But then again, I never have really tried building 4-5 galleons and moving over 16-20 veteran Cavalry to take a far-away civ... I just fear that I would be killed.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth


Yes... I play on huge maps... galleys are the de-facto most worthless unit around.

By the time I get my galleons, the Iroquois will have musketmen... perhaps they'll even have MT, with their advanced tech.

But then again, I never have really tried building 4-5 galleons and moving over 16-20 veteran Cavalry to take a far-away civ... I just fear that I would be killed.

4-5 galleons and 20 cav as an invasion force?
On a Huge map?

ROTFLMAO

Who cares if they have MT? unless they are close to nationalism then you will be fighting a cav v cav fight for the most part a fight that favors the attacker. Build up 25-30 galleons with enough Frigates to protect your force then load them up with cav, a few musketmen ect and kick their sorry a$$.

Powell Doctrine at its finest!

[Mountain Sage]

Yahweh Sabaoth,

Thanks for reminding some people that some uf us Do play un Huge maps and even LIKE to play on them

So 30 Galleons + 10 Frigates + 90 Cavalry = 130 units = 130 gold/turn. It will take 20 turns to assemble your force (average 20*75 gold = 1'500 gold) and 10 rounds to move your fleet. Total 1'500+1300 = 2'800 gold just to get there. Do you have all that gold?
Oh, by the way,if you reduce your science to build and maintain your force, you'll fall even more behind in Techs...

Now, another approach: Techs at 4/turn, deficit 100 gold/turn for 3 turns, then +100 the 4th turn (slider) = 1 Tech/4 turns for 200 gold. With 2'800 gold you get 3,5 Tech in 14 turns. Then you sell these Techs around, make money and start all over. Do you really think the Iroquois can match that?

Just think about it. War, specially on Huge maps, is not always the best solution.

Well, of course, you won't have the pleasure of seeing all the butchered horsies etc.

[Mad Bomber]

Mountain Sage:

130 gpt is nothing by the time you have conquered you continent (assuming that its not a total wasteland and of a decent size) on a huge map. I play exclusively on huge maps and my support will run at 1000 gpt + and I will still be raking in 1000 gpt. This force should take you no longer than 10 to assemble (you should already have a sizable army by knocking off the civ's on your continent) and five to transport (I station my navy at strategic points and only move it when at war)

So in total it should take no longer than 15 turns from the time you decide you will invade a country to the landing of your forces. As for 2800 gold to undertake the invasion; it may be a little expensive but an Amphib invasion is not a task to be undertaken lightly.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Hmmm. Two very different approaches from huge map players... and I thought I was the only one around!

Mad Bomber:

Depends what continent you're playing on. Assuming you're playing on a resource rich continent, you might be playing on a continent with 9 other civs. Disagree? I for one do not have the "skillz" to take on all 9, especially if the Carthaginians are on board, or another "superpower" in embryo is emerging.

A mid-smallish continent, I can conquer... 3 or 4 other civs. And most of the largest continent, sure. But at what point on your game are you making 1000 gold per turn? Are you selling all of your valuable resources? Are you selling cutting-edge tech? By the end of my game, just prior to cultural victory (early modern era), I'm earning maybe 600 gpt, but I'm happy with anything over 150, cause I know that victory is not far away.

As for taking on another continent... the only reason would be for wonders and resources. Corruption is just too problematic. And I'd have to switch to comyanism just to slaughter all my unhappy folks... and that would set me behind in tech... so what's the point?

Mountain Sage:

I agree with your basic approach. However, I would like to know how to take on those overseas dudes. I absolutely refuse to build 25 galleon. That's absurd. My coastal cities are important: they should be building improvements. If my continent is too small to expand any further, I'm rarely making enough money to maintain the huge buildup. Especially if I haven't made contact with the other continent yet!

Would 16 cavalry or mounted units be enough to take one city, hold it for a while, make peace, and then build that city into the Bombay of my dreams?

[minke19104]

suicide galley run....

This actually happened to me once, I won all of my continents but neglected research. I got scared when words came out that Persia have finished Copernicus, while I'm still at the early middle age. I right away researched up to navigation while sending galleys away to their deaths trying to find the unknown continent.

Finally I made it to navigation and contacted the other civs. Then comes the fun part...

Contrary to other posts, I feel that if I control enough productive lands in my continent, I hardly feel the need for conquest in another. By that time additional cities are only good if they have resources/luxuries. What I would do is actually try to make these new civs fight each other. Divide and Conquer all the way!!

First I'll check who the biggest dog is, in term of military, landmass, and techs. Then I'll declare war on them. In the same turn I'll contact other civs and create millitary alliances against that civ. This will create massive turmoil within the continent, while I would happily continue my research and nation building. I would send NO troops to attack, rather just watch the fight.

The way this works so well is that stupid AI civs pay no attention to how far your forces actually are or whether or not you actually bring any troops into the war. They will happily enter military alliances in return for your luxuries and especially if you managed to pull out Arrian's Deception . After a couple turns of massive war, I would bring my forces in to capture key cities close to luxuries... .

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Minke19014, by your three "evil" smilies, I take it that your are quite good at this divide and conquer policy. This is generally how I like to play it to, but there are sometimes two complications, that I'd like anyone's advice on overcoming:

1. The civs demand more than a luxury. Perhaps this is because I've declared war out of the blue so often on my own continent that they're wary of me?

2. The dividing and ruling backfires. The one big civ I get my little cronies to gang up on just annexes them. Now I've got an overseas superpower to compete with!

All y'all, give me any hints as to how to pull the dividing off more gracefully.

And what is "Arrian's Deception," some sort of medival wonder I've been overlooking?

[minke19104]

Arrian's Deception: Eliminate every single AI in ur continent before they make contacts with civs on other continent.

Sometimes hard to pull out but definitely worth it. You can swindle and break any treaties/trades in your continent and have those past mischiefs erased when you kill off those civs before they make any contacts. Your past crimes become part of forgotten history and everybody else will still be Polite/Cautious with you.

Usually I gang up with everybody in that other continent. But even if you create a superpower, it's still okay. That superpower will probably convert to monarchy/communism sooner or later. And they will be backwards in terms of techs and improvements. Your goal really is to be more advanced techwise and develop all your cities with factories, etc.

If they get big enough or small enough, pull the plug and do not extend the alliance after 20 turns. Make peace with the superpower and trade them your techs. If you're aiming conquest, there is still time. Get to Tanks fast or wait for them nukes to fly

My motto: AI civs warring each other is better than having them trading with each other.

[Theseus]

Hmmm...

We probably need a more in-depth discussion on strategy for huge maps.

On a huge map, one thing jumps out at me: Ain't no way I'm doing an intercontinental attack with no stinkin' 20 Cavs!

And yeah, the geo-politicking must be pretty intense.

(Like I have time for huge games, even when I get a new computer)

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Theseus
Hmmm...

We probably need a more in-depth discussion on strategy for huge maps.

On a huge map, one thing jumps out at me: Ain't no way I'm doing an intercontinental attack with no stinkin' 20 Cavs!

And yeah, the geo-politicking must be pretty intense.

(Like I have time for huge games, even when I get a new computer)

Geopolitics is a big thing, take into account that on most huge maps you will share a continent with at least 4 or 5 other civs, usually more. The ods of one of these becoming a great power is pretty big so I do think that early conquest is necessary.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Theseus
We probably need a more in-depth discussion on strategy for huge maps.

As a confirmed huge map player, and someone who generally misses out on things (such as PS lowering corruption, settlers popping out of huts only when none are active/building, etc.), I would love it if we could start a thread along these lines.

Maybe even an AU thread? I don't really know much about AU, but I assume it's for people to all look at the same game, right?

Definitely, intercontinental warfare is very, very difficult on a large map. It can come about much more easily once you have Transports, even if you're just using cavalry. After all, once you conquer your continent, if it's a biggie, then you've got a lot of cavalry left over, and you might as well put them to use!

But to hold on to your overseas possessions proves difficult, even on Regent level. Corruption, the threat of a cultural flip (rare but terrifying), and a massive counter-attack, all discourage the Colonizer.

But Theseus et al., I think it would be a great idea to start a "Huge World General Startegy" thread, especially to test time-honored strategies that work well on smaller maps, and determine if and how they can be translated to the huge map player.

Do it for your confused pal, Yahweh...

[minke19104]

AU 207: The power of Huge Map Vikings perhaps?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by minke19104
AU 207: The power of Huge Map Vikings perhaps?

I would choose Romans, a dinky civ that only becomes powerful after overcoming significant hurdles, on huge maps...

...but Vikings would be good too. Anything!

[vmxa1]

I am beting that many of the AU players are not going to want to devote that much time to a huge map, but if they do I will enjoy seeing the results.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by vmxa1
I am beting that many of the AU players are not going to want to devote that much time to a huge map, but if they do I will enjoy seeing the results.

Well, I will, dammit! I may not know my Civ too well, but who knows? Maybe I can big the Huge Map master around here! (I'm sure I'll get rousted by one of you wiz kids...)

Seriously, someone explain the AU concept to me, and I'll start it, if even only a few people want to join.

[badams52]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Geopolitics is a big thing, take into account that on most huge maps you will share a continent with at least 4 or 5 other civs, usually more. The ods of one of these becoming a great power is pretty big so I do think that early conquest is necessary.

Early conquest is helpful (though I wouldn't go as far as to say necessary) regardless of the map size

[badams52]

Originally posted by minke19104
My motto: AI civs warring each other is better than having them trading with each other.

It's true that this helps you rise while they fall, but if they're at war, that leaves less money for you to exploit and siphon off in trades with them, which in turn leaves you researching your lead at a slower pace...

[minke19104]

Originally posted by badams52


It's true that this helps you rise while they fall, but if they're at war, that leaves less money for you to exploit and siphon off in trades with them, which in turn leaves you researching your lead at a slower pace...

Maybe, but If they go to war against a tech leading civ, they cant buy techs from him/her. That leaves your "Glorious" Civ as the only tech broker/researcher. They usually lower science to give way for more money. And If you're lucky enough, they might even sever their gpt deals that were supposed to go to the warring civ, giving you ample opportunity to suck off from..

[badams52]

You miss my point. When the AI goes to war, he has much less money for gpt deals. Notice how often when at war a civ won't renew your luxury deals at the same price? His gpt is less, therefore there is less to siphon off. Of course this is most seen when the AI changes his government out of the money producing democracy.

Another thing you have to watch is if the leader starts to wipe out the civ(s) you put them to war with, your civ's comparitive power might decline.

Don't get me wrong, war between rival civs can be a good thing, I just don't think it's an always win deal.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by badams52
Don't get me wrong, war between rival civs can be a good thing, I just don't think it's an always win deal.

You just have to be sure on who to place your bet on. Like you say, you might end up with an over-dominant civilization if the big guy beats the little guys.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by badams52


Early conquest is helpful (though I wouldn't go as far as to say necessary) regardless of the map size

Oh well, I just like to have my continent mine and mine alone! Warmongering rules.

[Mad Bomber]

I play huge maps with only conquest enabled, so eventually I have no choice but to launch intercontinental invasions.

I'd welcome a thread or even a forum dedicated to the discussion of huge map play as huge maps do require different strategies.