Overcoming Parity in the Medival Age

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

Seriously, someone explain the AU concept to me, and I'll start it, if even only a few people want to join.

I may not be the best one to give you the 411, but as I understand it:

they wanted to come up with mods to make the AI more competitive and maybe even a super civ.
So they come up with plots or conceptions or what ever you may call it for a game. Set it up and have as many players take a run at it as want to contribute. By that I just mean play and give some sort of a run down on their progress. Some times each will take a different civ or tactic and you can play at differnt levels.
The idea is to see what works and why and see if you can improve both the AI and your game.
By now the mods is very stable. I mean it is not being tweak in a big way.
At least that is how I as interpreted it.
I will be corrected by students of AU I am sure.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth


Well, I will, dammit! I may not know my Civ too well, but who knows? Maybe I can big the Huge Map master around here! (I'm sure I'll get rousted by one of you wiz kids...)

Just to let you know that I only play on Huge maps. So you want to become THE huge map master? Well, me too! Maybe this forum is too small for the two of us : bash:

Good to have somebody to share my experience (?) and some good tips.

You might check my thread 'Playing on Emperor on a Huge Map' for a nice 16 Civs game.

As for all warmongers (and worse!), check my 370 AD save and count my military units.

Disclaimer: I am not responible for any

[Mountain Sage]

Mad Bomber,

Why don't you start a thread about Huge maps and give your input as a warmonger (said without irony this time)?

I could follow-up with my input as a PP (Perfect Peacenik).

Lemme know and

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
I play huge maps with only conquest enabled, so eventually I have no choice but to launch intercontinental invasions.

I'd welcome a thread or even a forum dedicated to the discussion of huge map play as huge maps do require different strategies.

I would be very happy to join you in such a thread, and I'd also like to know how in God's name you achieve a conquest victory on a huge map. I can't achieve it, and I only play regent...

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Mountain Sage: you start it up and let me know where it is! I'll check out your older thread right now!

[Catt]

Originally posted by vmxa1


I may not be the best one to give you the 411, but as I understand it:

they wanted to come up with mods to make the AI more competitive and maybe even a super civ.
So they come up with plots or conceptions or what ever you may call it for a game. Set it up and have as many players take a run at it as want to contribute. By that I just mean play and give some sort of a run down on their progress. Some times each will take a different civ or tactic and you can play at differnt levels.
The idea is to see what works and why and see if you can improve both the AI and your game.
By now the mods is very stable. I mean it is not being tweak in a big way.
At least that is how I as interpreted it.
I will be corrected by students of AU I am sure.

I'd say that reflects my view of AU pretty well. I'd add that one need not play the AU Mod (the rules changes) to play an AU game -- many play AU games with stadard Civ rules. Most AU games have a theme, and we play to the theme, more or less. The goals include: exploring tactics and strategies, learning about how the game itself works, having fun, sharing stories, and improving our own overall play.

If you've never done it before, playing the same game as a bunch of others (i.e., same map, civs, etc.) and then comparing how your game developed and seeing how others developed is great fun and usually very interesting. You can play at any difficulty level, and there is no "contest" or "competition" -- it's not a regularly scheduled shared game in which highest points or fastest victories, etc. are coveted. I think in the last AU game we had people playing every level from Warlord to Deity (maybe just Emperor).

Catt

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Could even a lowly regent-level civ junkie such as myself start a Civ AU thread?

If so, I'll bring one in tomorrow... to explore the broad strategies applicable to a huge map, with continents, cultural linking on, etc. In other words, it wouldn't be all too "weird," just a good forum to explore general strategies.

Maybe some non-huge map players could give it a shot, and see how well (or not) their usual strategies translate to the huge map. I'd love to see this.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Could even a lowly regent-level civ junkie such as myself start a Civ AU thread?

Your preferred difficulty level has no real bearing on your input - AU is open to all.

But individuals don't open up AU threads. A decision on an appropriate "course" (i.e., theme) is made by consensus of interest. Usually, the discussion of what should be the next AU course takes place either in the AU thread (here), sometimes in the AU Mod thread (here), in the most recent AU Course "Stories and Spoilers" thread which is the place where players report the results of their games (here) or sometimes in a thread started for the very purpose of generating interest in another AU course.

You might consider opening a thread suggesting that it's time to start another AU game, and offering your idea for what would make sense. Others have suggested recently that an OCC or 5CC game might have merit (or might properly be a "sub-course" of AU), and I think another recent suggestion was another experiment in naval matters.

In any event, one of the goals of AU is to be accessible to all -- in the past we have shied away from playing on large or huge maps simply because some of the players with less powerful computers find the game unplayable (or nearly so) on anything larger than a standard map.

Finally, before you launch a thread for an AU suggestion, I'd suggest that you read through the "main" AU thread in its entirety (first link above) and perhaps read through one or two recent "spoiler threads" to AU games -- all in an effort to get a feel for what we try and do with AU.

Catt

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth


I would be very happy to join you in such a thread, and I'd also like to know how in God's name you achieve a conquest victory on a huge map. I can't achieve it, and I only play regent...

Im not one for starting threads (I try but I always get writers block) As for conquest victories, I must admit I have only achieved one (I have 3 others that I would win, but have yet to play through) in CIV 3 1.29. That game took me 3 and a half months to complete playing on average 2 hrs per night. Expect a conquest victory on a huge map to take aprox 150 hrs of playing time to complete. I play on regent as well (I don't like the bonuses the AI gets at higher levels) As for the AU, I enjoy their critiques, but do not participate in the games as I find their mods to the game a little too basic. (bombardment values are too low, movement for modern units are not accurate....I tried to argue some of these points, to no avail) Finally, I am not a full blown Warmonger, I love building too!!!

Yaheweh & Mountain Sage:

If you are interested, we could play a PBEM game on regent. PM me if interested.

[Theseus]

YS:

Please do go ahead and start a thread discussing a huge map AU game. I think the discussion preliminary to even setting it up would / will be quite interesting.

If you go back to the original thread, and the first 10 suggested game scenarios, you will see that I also suggested some large / huge maps, but with completion thresholds well before actually winning, to allow those dis-inclined to play out such a long game a still meaningful experience.

Please remember: mutual enjoyment and learning are the goals.

[badams52]

Originally posted by Master Zen

Oh well, I just like to have my continent mine and mine alone! Warmongering rules.

Actually, when I said early conquest is "helpful" I think that was a little weak. What I really mean to say is that early conquest is probably the best way to make victory easy in the later stages, but not necessary to win the game.

Once I learned the value of early conquest, my first thoughts when playing a game is, okay, which neighbor is going to be absorbed into my empire first?

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by badams52

Once I learned the value of early conquest, my first thoughts when playing a game is, okay, which neighbor is going to be absorbed into my empire first?

I sense you are turning into the dark side!

seriously, on emperor, early conquest is vital. On deity it's a matter of life and death. I cannot even imagine hoping to beat deity by being peaceful in the ancient era.

[Mountain Sage]

YS,

Ok, I'll start a new thread about 'Strategies on a Huge Map' with my first imput, but only next week (I'll be quite busy this week-end, and the weather looks gorgeous here).

On your side, why don't you start an AU thread about Large/Huge maps and see if there is any interest? I'll join you gladly (even if I don't have much playing time) as the PP (Perfect Peacenik), just to show some people (add VERY long list here) that you can also achieve your goal (winning the game, that is) without too much bloodshed.

Good luck

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

Mountain Sage:

I agree with your basic approach. However, I would like to know how to take on those overseas dudes. I absolutely refuse to build 25 galleon. That's absurd. My coastal cities are important: they should be building improvements. If my continent is too small to expand any further, I'm rarely making enough money to maintain the huge buildup. Especially if I haven't made contact with the other continent yet!

First of all, I'll just point out that Mad Bomber's approach is a valid one: you can build a huge invasion fleet, not get broke, invade and conquer. I even did it a couple of times

But what happens, as you said, if your're on a small continent with 12-15 cities?
My answer is: change your playing style! get your luxuries, resources etc. by diplomacy, Tech research and
trading. This is exactly what I'm doing now. 12 cities, a big island, Egypt and Germany E and N, NO LUXURIES (and Egypt has 11 spices!!!!) and another 13 vulture Civs around.
You can still win on Emperor (or so I hope...).
I'll post my next save this week-end, mid-way down the Industrial Ages, with 3 military units only.

So, different settings, different strategies, but at the end, only 1 win (YOU).

[yxhuvud]

Master Zen: It is quite possible to beat deity bybeing peaceful if you have a little luck. Just let the AI's attack each other instead of you

I had a game where I had neither iron or horses, and thus had almost no way to do an effective invasion early game. But since all the other civs was in war with eachother from 700AD until it ended ~1800AD, with me never had been in any war, I was able to grab (well, conquer, aqtually), the UN and win diplomatic victory

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Ok world...

I haven't had time to read the entirety of all 3 AU threads, but I pledge to.

In the meantime, I am going to start a thread for the "preliminary discussion" of whether or not there even should be a huge map AU thread.

Please check it out, and post your comments and thoughts. I shall title it "Huge Map AU: Preliminary Thoughts."

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by yxhuvud
Master Zen: It is quite possible to beat deity bybeing peaceful if you have a little luck. Just let the AI's attack each other instead of you

I had a game where I had neither iron or horses, and thus had almost no way to do an effective invasion early game. But since all the other civs was in war with eachother from 700AD until it ended ~1800AD, with me never had been in any war, I was able to grab (well, conquer, aqtually), the UN and win diplomatic victory

You just said it luck! LOTS OF IT. Although I assume there was pretty skillful diplomatic handling on your part too.

[minke19104]

wow that's like 1100 years of war..... crazy game there...

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Alright, this is a topic-related question:

How do you earn the amount of money you need to build the 25-30 galleons, or whatever, you need to cross overseas?

Do you not build certain improvements, like universities, or something?

I simply don't understand, and I'm not that stupid. I cannot arrange truly lucrative luxury trades until the industrial era (when I can pull down between 20-80 gpt for a luxury or strategic resource). Hence, I don't tend to make a grotesque amount of gpt during the medival era.

How are you people doing it?!?

[minke19104]

Marketplace + Banks + Adam Smith will nest you good amount of gold. Oh and the Colossus also ..

But you get the most money from selling techs. It isn't too hard really. You need to constantly sell your techs off. At first the most they'll pay is prolly around 20 gpt. But after a while, they start to depend on you for tech. Sell for the biggest bidder first, then the rest. Dont let other civs buy the tech from him/her.

You also need libraries and universities for research. There are awesome threads around about tech dealing and brokerage. Try the must read threads...

Make a super duper science city. Find a city close to capital/FP with coastal area. Make SURE you get the Colossus early for the added commerce bonus to every worked square. Try to get either or all Copernicus/Newtons/SETI wonder. Of course library, univ, research labs are good. Put marketplace, banks, harbor, stock exchange, Commercial Harbor in it also. And whatever other ppl may say, Commercial Harbor and Colossus benefits do stack, giving you crazy amount of money for science.

In my current game, my Super Duper Science City produces 356 something science per turn with 20 citizens and all the stuff I wrote above.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Even sell your techs to civs that are far behind you, and have luxuries you want, that you could employ your massive technological edge against?

[minke19104]

Here's a good thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...t=tech+trading

I usually sell them to civs that can pay me good money (50gpt up). Otherwise if they're too backwards, I'd rather use them as training grounds for my military.

[Arrian]

Yahweh,

The main factors in getting rich, for me:

1) Palace/FP setup. Lots of low-corruption cities.
2) A solid "build" phase after (and sometimes during) the conquest of my continent.
3) GA timing
4) selling things (usually luxuries, occasionally tech) to other civs for gpt.
5) Wonders that pay upkeep for your improvements: pyramids, sun tzu, smith's.

The Great Library can also make you rich, though that's a temporary thing if you don't use the riches to improve your economic base (improve your cities). Leonardo's will save you money, but only if you are doing a lot of unit upgrading. Finally, the happiness wonders can really help, since with them and a decent number of luxuries, you won't need to use the luxury spending slider too much.

Usually you can't make much money off the AI until they have been in a representative government for a while (rep/demo) so their cashflow increases. I keep my eye out for civs that may enter a GA via war, so I can immediately sell them whatever I can to drain all their gpt gains during those 20 turns.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, I do all those things in a typical game... in fact, sometimes I'll get so p.o.'d that I'll quit my game, even if I'm the leading power, if, say, the Korean's get Leo's Workshop... my game just won't be "perfect" enough. And I keep building during wartime, generally... so... I guess I still don't understand. I could be spending too much money on my army?

btw: this is OT, but just a reminder to everyone: I started a new AU-proposal thread: check it out!

[minke19104]

Say you can make 2 deals to a Civ, a luxury trade or a tech trade.

The luxury trade will only net you 52 gpt,
while the tech trade will get you 82 gpt.

Should I give them tech or luxury??

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Alright, this is a topic-related question:

How do you earn the amount of money you need to build the 25-30 galleons, or whatever, you need to cross overseas?

Do you not build certain improvements, like universities, or something?

I simply don't understand, and I'm not that stupid. I cannot arrange truly lucrative luxury trades until the industrial era (when I can pull down between 20-80 gpt for a luxury or strategic resource). Hence, I don't tend to make a grotesque amount of gpt during the medival era.

How are you people doing it?!?

Yahweh:

One thing I should note:

I play on a mod with reduced coruption

That being said, 2800 gold for an invasion is not a lot even for vanilla PTW (not modded)

Typically I fight a few early wars (wars before cav) to give me a decent sized empire with correct palace and FP placement and in a demo your available cash should skyrocket. Build during the early industrial age, getting your major infrastructure set up (factories, banks, police stations and Stock markets are a must for core cities)

On a huge map, unless you are playing with 16+ civ's should net you more than 20g per luxury, if you haven't; try to haggle a little to find out what the AI is willing to pay.

I move the palace periodically to ncerease the amount of cities that have low corrruption. I tend to build the FP in my orgional core cities so that my core cities do not have much corruption, and gradually move the palace out to make more cities productive.

One last point:
NEVER use Wealth.

[badams52]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Well, I do all those things in a typical game... in fact, sometimes I'll get so p.o.'d that I'll quit my game, even if I'm the leading power, if, say, the Korean's get Leo's Workshop... my game just won't be "perfect" enough. And I keep building during wartime, generally... so... I guess I still don't understand. I could be spending too much money on my army?

Sigh, it has been proven that you don't need even 1 GW to win. Sounds like you have the UP syndrome.

But seriously, I build during wartime myself, but I usually trade off cities. "Okay this city had a hospital and a factory, time to produce units. Ah, you've been producing cavalry long enough, time to get you a cathedral." Then again, my armies are usually small to the numbers I see that others are putting out. Take a look at the AU206 spoiler thread, and you'll see different sizes of armies. Mine's smaller, but I take time in fighting and make sure to have the advantage when attacking or defending.

[badams52]

Originally posted by Master Zen
I sense you are turning into the dark side!

seriously, on emperor, early conquest is vital. On deity it's a matter of life and death. I cannot even imagine hoping to beat deity by being peaceful in the ancient era.

Turned. I would like to go back to civ II and see how the darkside would affect UP. I was always a retaliate-when-attacked player. Wait till the AI attacks, then take cities (sometimes all) from him because he took me out of my builder phase to back a war.

I'd respond to your idea of vital, but yxhuvud beat me to it. There was a thread here a while back about a victory on diety without ever going to war. Might have been yxhuvud, but I don't recall whose it was and couldn't find it with a quick search.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by minke19104
Say you can make 2 deals to a Civ, a luxury trade or a tech trade.

The luxury trade will only net you 52 gpt,
while the tech trade will get you 82 gpt.

Should I give them tech or luxury??

If you sell the tech, then sell it to EVERYONE who has anything to pay for it. If you don't, then the civ you sold it to will. This is why you prefer to sell during YOUR turn.

If you don't want someone (anyone) to get that tech, then make someone happy by selling the lux.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
...

One last point:
NEVER use Wealth.

... until you at least have Economics tech and you have all the units you want; or some extreme financial crunch.