Master of Orion 3 - What went right?

H Tower · February 27, 2003, 21:47

Well? I've seen enough complaint threads for the first day on the market, how about things that went well for a change?

Inverse Icarus · February 27, 2003, 21:53

copycat thread!

i'll let you know when i get into a deep game.

H Tower · February 27, 2003, 21:56

Quote:

Originally posted by UberKruX
copycat thread!

really?

people are talking about a steep learning curve when they can't have been playing for more than 8 hours yet, and they're already whining they can't figure it out!

RTFM!!!

vmxa1 · February 27, 2003, 23:42

Some prefer it to be a bit more intuitive. I don't mind, I love to read the manual and guides.

Corentor · February 27, 2003, 23:42

I am very impressed with planetary AI.

This is honestly the first game I have played where the "helper" AI helps me far more than it hurts me.

Yodasplat · February 27, 2003, 23:55

I don't like the AI... it produces too many troop ships, but perhaps there's a setting somewhere I am not getting right.

That's the only complain I have so far.

I like to do the zoning myself even if the AI tries to... maybe I should stop being such a control freak and let the zoning AI figure things out.

On the other hand, right now I have 4 planets and micromanaging them is not such a big deal and it's even necessary to squeeze as much out of them as I can.

I can see how this can get too busy later on when I am going to have dozens of planets. In that case I will probably let the AI do all the micro work for it.

Still at the beginning of the game but I have to say ... clicking on that "turn" button is ADDICTIVE. I can't stop!!

Someone help me!!

EDITED: by the way I am still at page 44 of the manual

still a lot of reading to do

Kc7mxo · February 28, 2003, 00:06

Blah. I haven't even got to play yet. Just watched a neighbor of mine play for a bit. Its waiting for me at home, but my compiler is the one getting all the damn attention at the moment.

And from what I've heard about moo3 so far, it seems like its competing with my compiler in the category of hair pulling.

Dang you! Work!

heretk · February 28, 2003, 00:40

Yes MOO is an awesome franchise. And yes there will be many reasons to log many hours with the newest installment. But hey, the "what went wrong" thread is already two full pages and there are only seven posts in this thread. What does that tell us?

I just got this game this afternoon, and am still deep in the learning stage. So I will reserve judgement for now. Though the many complaints I have heard seem to be disturbingly plausible from what I have seen so far.

H Tower · February 28, 2003, 01:02

Quote:

Originally posted by heretk
But hey, the "what went wrong" thread is already two full pages and there are only seven posts in this thread. What does that tell us?

that people whine too much too soon?

ChaotikVisions · February 28, 2003, 01:22

Hmm, what went right?

The Planet system is great how its setup, offers much more variation as well as strategy. Its system is much like Stars! 2 for those who played it, down to the sweet spots/gravity/terraforimg. Works pretty well.

Space Combat is also looking good, with only a few ships initially it seems like its just pathetic. But once you get larger ships more ships into the battle, it gets much better. Balancing your TFs also adds new strategy, as I found my Long Range/In Direct TFs get wiped out by missiles, my next set of TFs had smaller ships running point defense and fared much better.

Economy-Once you understand it, you'll realize its quite good. Setting funds/taxes/prioritys isn't all that complicated. Seems like being a race good at trading would be a great advantage, I keep giving my Sakkra bad trading skills though so I can't be sure.

Ground fighting is also lots of fun, you have options to use WMDs, choosing your attack strategy, as well as limiting/not limiting your affects on nearby things like civilian population/structures. I softened up a Erra(Fish people, Itcgsgh or whatever) by mass bombarding earlier, then sent in my exp Infantry and did a multiple-pronged attack with WMDs to wipe em out, they never saw it coming. The reports you get in battle are also quite nice to listen to.

Also the races are varied and the diplomacy is interesting. Its quite funny to see everyone take a stern stance when talking to me, or congratulate me for wiping out a Erra world or two. If you build up a strong allie it seems the will stay that way, being able to use their ships when its a battle involving you is also a great feature.

Theres other things as well, but thats all off the top of my head. Just stopped playing to eat and figured i'd check on here first. Its not as uber-complicated as people claim, and since the AI seems competent I may start letting it managing colonies intially now. But I think its probably best to manage core worlds/worlds you deem important with the AI off. From what I gather its whats cuasing some headaches. Micromanaging it all is possible, but my Empire looks like it could end up encompassing 100 worlds or more, which would be annoying to micro them all.

Crostoneman · February 28, 2003, 01:55

I just attacked the New Orions with my scout ship on turn 70. I never saw them, only eighteen blue beams shot out of the darkness and blew the poor little ship to pieces.

JonahFalcon · February 28, 2003, 02:08

Heh. A mosquito attacking a rhino...

Vince278 · February 28, 2003, 02:16

What went right?

Still looking...

Silellak · February 28, 2003, 02:59

"people are talking about a steep learning curve when they can't have been playing for more than 8 hours yet, and they're already whining they can't figure it out!"

See, this is the problem. A game should not take 8 hours to learn, unless people are having fun during those 8 hours. Some people may be, but obviously quite a few aren't.

Telling someone their opinion isn't valid because they refuse to do something they don't enjoy for over 8 hours is just silly. I didn't buy a game to work through it to the point where I like it, I bought it to HAVE FUN.

Corentor · February 28, 2003, 03:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Yodasplat
I don't like the AI... it produces too many troop ships, but perhaps there's a setting somewhere I am not getting right.

That's the only complain I have so far.

I like to do the zoning myself even if the AI tries to... maybe I should stop being such a control freak and let the zoning AI figure things out.

On the other hand, right now I have 4 planets and micromanaging them is not such a big deal and it's even necessary to squeeze as much out of them as I can.

I can see how this can get too busy later on when I am going to have dozens of planets. In that case I will probably let the AI do all the micro work for it.

Still at the beginning of the game but I have to say ... clicking on that "turn" button is ADDICTIVE. I can't stop!!

Someone help me!!

EDITED: by the way I am still at page 44 of the manual

still a lot of reading to do

Easy troop ship fix. Obsolete them in the Shipyard screen. The AI doesn't build obscelete ships. The obsolete button is my primary way of controlling AI production.

As for zoning yourself... wow, you are dedicated. I let the viceroy do all that. I don't like having to manage every single thing.

H Tower · February 28, 2003, 03:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Silellak
Telling someone their opinion isn't valid because they refuse to do something they don't enjoy for over 8 hours is just silly.

Where did I say your opinion wasn't valid?

Quote:

I didn't buy a game to work through it to the point where I like it, I bought it to HAVE FUN.

Does this mean you're going to stop playing and leave?
i've got a little something for you then

http://apolyton.net/store/

Jamski · February 28, 2003, 03:21

- but I wouldn't buy from a Psilon.

-Jam

Corentor · February 28, 2003, 03:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Silellak
"people are talking about a steep learning curve when they can't have been playing for more than 8 hours yet, and they're already whining they can't figure it out!"

See, this is the problem. A game should not take 8 hours to learn, unless people are having fun during those 8 hours. Some people may be, but obviously quite a few aren't.

Telling someone their opinion isn't valid because they refuse to do something they don't enjoy for over 8 hours is just silly. I didn't buy a game to work through it to the point where I like it, I bought it to HAVE FUN.

Really, I have to question you.

Did you not do any research before buying? All your complaints were clearly laid out by Tom Chick and the Avault review. It was even echoed by many beta testers.

And if you really don't like it so much, return the product.

Cado · February 28, 2003, 03:34

Well...I just finished my first game...587 turns later.

I can see both sides of the arguement.

I, personally, like a challenge and MOO3 is QUITE a challenge. There are still a lot of things I don't quite have the grasp of but, with anything, try, try again.

Did I win? No.

Did I give the computer a run? Probably not.

Will I play again? A resounding yes.

Kinjiru · February 28, 2003, 03:56

What went right... well, QS has implemented a vision that has something other than 13-year old boys as it's target audience.

Can you pick this game up with no prior experience and expect to have it mastered in a day or two? Nope. And that is the point. Let's take an example from SMAC. I highly doubt that there is a person on these boards that immediately understood how to effectivly use Free Market. Or intuitively grasped the idea of crawler farms. Rather, we learned a little bit over several weeks of playing. And by talking to each other on the forums.

People are getting upset about the AI. Well here's a thought for you. Let's say you, me and four or five others decide to play a game of Civ3 as a cooperative effort. You get to be incharge of grand strategy while I am in charge of city improvements and someone else is in charge of infrastructure. Hey guess what, I am going to make decisions that may not quite jib exactly with your vision. And the infrastucture guy might decide that mining those diamonds over there is more important than building that road you want. This is what happens when you have partners. And that is exactly what we have in MoO3 with the viceroys. This is a phenomenal accomplishment. Is there room for some tweaking and improving, of course.

What do I love most about MoO3? Well I am brand new to the series, so I love seeing new concepts and reinterpetations of old standards. But the very best part is the fact that I will play a game into a couple hundred turns and then quit. I won't immediately start a new game either. Instead I go do something else, but I find myself thinking about that last game. What if I did this, or maybe this other idea might work out pretty well. After a few hours of such thoughts I can't wait to get back in and try them out. The One More Turn factor is implicitly high, I mean we are talking about a strategy game here, but the One More Game factor is even higher - and that is what QS got right!

H Tower · February 28, 2003, 04:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Kinjiru
People are getting upset about the AI. Well here's a thought for you. Let's say you, me and four or five others decide to play a game of Civ3 as a cooperative effort. You get to be incharge of grand strategy while I am in charge of city improvements and someone else is in charge of infrastructure. Hey guess what, I am going to make decisions that may not quite jib exactly with your vision. And the infrastucture guy might decide that mining those diamonds over there is more important than building that road you want. This is what happens when you have partners. And that is exactly what we have in MoO3 with the viceroys. This is a phenomenal accomplishment. Is there room for some tweaking and improving, of course.

what you describe sounds exactly like a democracy game

OmniDude · February 28, 2003, 04:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Silellak
A game should not take 8 hours to learn, unless people are having fun during those 8 hours. Some people may be, but obviously quite a few aren't.
Telling someone their opinion isn't valid because they refuse to do something they don't enjoy for over 8 hours is just silly. I didn't buy a game to work through it to the point where I like it, I bought it to HAVE FUN.

As to the first part: So learning MOO3 is more like learning to surf or stepping up from Civ2 to Civ3 than to play C&C version umpteen. Sounds good to me.
Most things worth spending your time on will take some time to learn.
(no, haven't gotten it yet)

As to the second point: Telling somebody that their opinion isn't valid because they don't mind doing something they don't enjoy for over 8 hours is equally silly. If you don't like people passing judgment on your opinions, guess what the smart thing to do is?

Come to think of it, good strategy games IMHO are usually not built around the idea of having FUN, but rather to pose a mental CHALLENGE. I don't play to have laugh, I play to exercise my "little grey cells".
To me it sounds like you probably just should not get/have gotten the game.

Silellak · February 28, 2003, 05:39

"Come to think of it, good strategy games IMHO are usually not built around the idea of having FUN, but rather to pose a mental CHALLENGE. I don't play to have laugh, I play to exercise my "little grey cells".
To me it sounds like you probably just should not get/have gotten the game."

Odd, both MOO1 and MOO2 posed mental challenges, and were actually fun.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure MOO3 is fun for some people. But I can't help but get the feeling that Quicksilver hijacked the Master of Orion name in order to sell boxes, while the game is really nothing like anything else in the series.

Which would be fine, but at least rename the game. The whole idea of a series is that it has the same basic feel with minor enhancements/changes. At least, that's what I always believed.

CharlesBHoff · February 28, 2003, 05:42

They did awhat that was right. May-be they need than better manul inproval the al alittle. I have touble with my intellpoint mouse does anybody have any idear the pointer flash on and off.

OmniDude · February 28, 2003, 06:38

Silellak,

ah, but MOO1 and 2 are meant to be topped, right?! You might say that this is more of a MOO4 or 5 than the MOO2.5 that you seem to have expected, but that can hardly come as a surprise if you've read about the level of ambition set by the developers.

I am currently being bored out of my skull playing endgame in Civ3, micromanagement hell is definately a problem. Making a system that provides the MOO3 AI with enough "policy input" to actually do what you want it to, has to affect the learning curve. From what I've heard so far, the end result is actually satisfactory, even if it is not perfect.

And I can't imagine that anyone at QS believe that putting a apparently VERY complex game together will sell boxes.
It may be the rationale of IG to use the MOO as a brand, but they are behind at least some of the cuts made towards the end of the development phase, so they would seem to be your allies, so to speak.

Lastly, what exactly is it that you think sets it so far apart from the rest of the series?

OmniDude · February 28, 2003, 06:52

OK, just saw your "what went wrong"-thread, which answers my last question.

Jamski · February 28, 2003, 06:53

Quote:

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff
They did awhat that was right. May-be they need than better manul inproval the al alittle. I have touble with my intellpoint mouse does anybody have any idear the pointer flash on and off.

Change the pointer to "System Mouse" in the Game Options. Works for me. Less ugly too.

-Jam

BottleOfPills · February 28, 2003, 08:24

Overwhelmed? Steep Learning Curve? Menu's everywhere? I've only played for one day?

How many times have I read the above statements? Sometimes in the same sentence.

First, I've never played any of the games in this series prior to purchasing MOO3 yesterday. I've been a big fan of Civilization, SMAC, the AOE, and Starcraft series, but something was missing for me between these two types of games (Turn Based and Real Time). But I think MOO3 has what's missing (for me anyway).

Yes its daunting at first, I've only got 5 planets, played 73 turns, and I still haven't figured out how to put troops on a troop transport. I have enemy spies blowing stuff up left and right. But I love the Interface, and the fact I can delegate things - and they seem to work very well.

Maybe I'm a geek as I enjoy involved things, and part of the thrill is understanding what goes on in the background.

Basically, my vote this is a great game - it has some bugs I think, with the Direct X surface errors, and some of the text views are "blurry", but if your a fan of Turn Based Strategy games - try this, you will most likely find it very engrossing. If you are a big Real Time Strategy fan - I'd say it's not for you, but I'd try it anyway just because I feel it comes off as a true Strategy game. By that I mean you are more like the general directing your forces (moving the peaces on the board).

Try it out at least. I love it so far. I'll probably be fired today from playing it at work.

General Ludd · February 28, 2003, 08:50

It deffinately does have a steep learning curve and can be very overwhelming at first (I took two hours on my first turn, going through all the tutorial help and checking with the manual), but this is because it has so many original concepts and is not just a simple civ clone.

I have not played enough to get completely familiar with it, but the more I play the more I appretiate the new concepts and ideas they've added to the genre.

Some people think that the game plays itself... well, it only does when you don't do anything. If you lose interest or forget about managing something ,the AI will pick up the slack. But you're always able to take control when you want to. (mind you... I don't quite understand the method of building improvements within the DEAs yet, and I have noticed my research priorities slip by a percent or two the turn after changing them, but if I move them back to where I set it, they don't move again - I'm not sure if that's related to the AI or just a bug)

NHB · February 28, 2003, 09:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Silellak
"people are talking about a steep learning curve when they can't have been playing for more than 8 hours yet, and they're already whining they can't figure it out!"

See, this is the problem. A game should not take 8 hours to learn, unless people are having fun during those 8 hours. Some people may be, but obviously quite a few aren't.

Telling someone their opinion isn't valid because they refuse to do something they don't enjoy for over 8 hours is just silly. I didn't buy a game to work through it to the point where I like it, I bought it to HAVE FUN.

I don't agree. IIRC MoO3 was never sold as a 'Dive right into the fun' kind of game, so complaining that it takes time to learn is invalid. Just like it would be silly of me to buy Unreal 2 and complain about the precense of violence or buying an NFL game and complaining about the need to learn a bit about football.