Under what circumstances (no pun intended) is circumcision acceptable? - Page 2

Sava · February 28, 2003, 14:44

I dunno Boris, I just think it would be dirty. I mean, who knows what kind of crap lives inside the folds of foreskin? Circumsizing males at birth... nothing wrong with it; should be done, but I wouldn't make it mandatory.

Boris Godunov · February 28, 2003, 14:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
I dunno Boris, I just think it would be dirty. I mean, who knows what kind of crap lives inside the folds of foreskin? Circumsizing males at birth... nothing wrong with it; should be done, but I wouldn't make it mandatory.

That's a myth. It isn't difficult to keep an uncircumcized penis clean. I've never had anyone who is uncut complain to me about it.

It shouldn't be done just for its own sake. Unless there's a religious or health reason, I just think nature should be left well enough alone.

Asher · February 28, 2003, 14:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
Uncut shlongos are weird... 'Nuff said...

Hmm. Well uncut is natural, cut is not, so naturally uncut are weird.

The only reason cut schlongs don't seem weird is because it's so popular in your country and other countries with whacky religious rituals that were intended to discourage masturbation, despite what they tell you.

And if you move to Canada, or most anywhere in Europe, you'll realize it's the cut schlongos that are weird.

Not to mention, when it's cut it restricts what can be done with it.

lord of the mark · February 28, 2003, 14:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I would leave it as a personal preference for adults, unless medical conditions dictate otherwise.

Male circ is a more painful and difficult procedure for adults, with a longer recovery than for infants. So the idea that leaving it adulthood is leaving the child with "choice" is not fully correct. Now if you belong to a cultural community where the likelhihood of an adult choosing it is not high, i can see the argument for putting it off to adulthood. If you live in a cultural community, like my own(ie the Jewish community), where it is a virtually universal preference, postponing it till adulthood is merely adding needless future pain to your son.

Flubber · February 28, 2003, 14:56

I am circumcized and do not lament my lost skin in the least. But if my upcoming child happens to be a boy, I have no intention of having the procedure performed on him absent some medical necessity. I don't see that there is anything seriously wrong with having it done (religious or cultural reasons?) but my choice will be no.

Asher · February 28, 2003, 15:00

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Male circ is a more painful and difficult procedure for adults, with a longer recovery than for infants. So the idea that leaving it adulthood is leaving the child with "choice" is not fully correct.

On the other hand, what if your child grows up and realizes he'd rather like to keep all those nerve endings and reduce the friction, you've made the choice for him based on tradition and ritual for no real apparent reason.

It's far easier to get circumcised later in life than it is to get the foreskin restored.

Quote:

Now if you belong to a cultural community where the likelhihood of an adult choosing it is not high, i can see the argument for putting it off to adulthood. If you live in a cultural community, like my own(ie the Jewish community), where it is a virtually universal preference, postponing it till adulthood is merely adding needless future pain to your son.

Of course, if your religion specifies it must be done, it only makes sense to do it when the person will heal fastest (infant).

Sava · February 28, 2003, 15:01

bah, I'm an atheist and I'd still have my boy(s) circumsized at birth.

Asher · February 28, 2003, 15:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
bah, I'm an atheist and I'd still have my boy(s) circumsized at birth.

Atta boy Sava, I knew you'd give the ultimate sacrifice to the status quo.

Sava · February 28, 2003, 15:04

does anybody hear that? It sounds like a turd flapping in the wind?

Asher · February 28, 2003, 15:04

In summary: Unless there are medical or religious reasons, leave the boy intact.

Under all circumstances, leave the girl intact.

Boris Godunov · February 28, 2003, 15:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
bah, I'm an atheist and I'd still have my boy(s) circumsized at birth.

Why? Keep in mind that, considering the current trends, by the time they are of an age when they will be having their schlongs looked at, they'll be the "weird" ones. Won't you just be contributing to their being potentially mocked for being different?

There's no reason for you to do it. Why rob them of the choice of being cut or not? I don't think it's your right to make such a decision for them.

SlowwHand · February 28, 2003, 15:07

Sava, gawd man.

Sava · February 28, 2003, 15:08

I'm their dad, they wouldn't be alive if not for me. So I don't really buy your whole, "its not my right to decide" argument. Circumcision was good enough for me... it's my opinion that it's better, so say bye-bye to baby's extra foreskin.

As with all things in life, there is a South Park quote to explain this:

"We're not cutting your brothers wee-wee off Kyle, we just snip it to make it look bigger."

Asher · February 28, 2003, 15:08

http://www.cirp.org/news/theprovince08-29-02/

Quote:

`Totally unexpected' death of baby probed
Five-week-old infant died after he was circumcised at Penticton hospital
Jason Proctor
The Province

Thursday, August 29, 2002.

The Kamloops coroner is investigating the case of an infant who died last week from complications following his circumcision at Penticton Regional Hospital.

The five-week-old child was released after the procedure last Tuesday morning, but his parents went back to talk to the doctor later that day with concerns about bleeding. They returned home, but the situation worsened overnight, forcing them to rush the child back to hospital early Wednesday.

The infant was flown by air ambulance to Vancouver, where he died last Thursday in B.C. Children's Hospital.

"It certainly seems to be unusual," coroner Ian McKichan said yesterday. "It's definitely something that warrants an investigation, because it's a totally unexpected sort of death."

Deaths following circumcision are almost unheard of, but like any operation, bleeding and infection are the greatest dangers.

The case raises questions about an increasingly rare operation which stirs controversy in some circles.

"The bottom line is that circumcision is becoming a less-common procedure," said Dr. Morris Van Andel, registrar of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of B.C. "It's no longer an insured service -- it's considered an option. That makes it all the more distressing when you hear about something like this."

According to Penticton hospital officials, the operation to remove the foreskin from the child's penis was conducted by a physician with 16 years' practice in British Columbia.

The coroner's office is now awaiting the results of an autopsy being performed in Vancouver. McKichan said the investigation could take up to three months.

The college will likely also investigate the case after the coroner's inquiry is finished, to determine whether the death is the result of medical complications or malpractice.

Decades ago, nearly all Canadian boys were circumcised shortly after birth, but the Canadian Paediatric Society no longer recommends the procedure. It is now done mainly on religious grounds -- primarily by Jews and Muslims.

Because of the drop in popularity and increasing medical cost-cutting, children are usually circumcised at a doctor's office or as hospital out-patients.

Doctors generally observe a child for about an hour, and then instruct parents to watch for trouble.

"Instead of being observed by professional staff, the parents are left on their own," said Dr. Shelley Ross, a Burnaby family doctor. "If a person wants to get it done, should they be pushed into not having professional observation because of the cost?"

Doctors say the best time to perform a circumcision is in the first few weeks after birth.

The operation should take 10 to 15 minutes under a local anesthetic, performed with a clamp designed to seal the blood-vessels.

"The amount of blood you should see with this type of procedure, should be no more than a [bit] on the diaper," said Ross.

"You need experienced hands. You need to to know what you're doing."

lord of the mark · February 28, 2003, 15:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Asher
http://www.cirp.org/news/theprovince08-29-02/

Your article state it should be done while still in the hospital for obsevation. Among Jews it is done on the eight day, not in the hospital, yet IIUC the rate of complications is the same or lower.

Sava · February 28, 2003, 15:13

Sh1t happens man, I do think, however, my kid has a better chance of being the new Judeo-Christian messiah than dying from a circumcision.

Nice try though TB...

I wonder how many circumsized men are truly unhappy with their shlongs and wish they weren't circumsized. I've never met one.

lord of the mark · February 28, 2003, 15:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Why? Keep in mind that, considering the current trends, by the time they are of an age when they will be having their schlongs looked at, they'll be the "weird" ones. Won't you just be contributing to their being potentially mocked for being different?

There's no reason for you to do it. Why rob them of the choice of being cut or not? I don't think it's your right to make such a decision for them.

Which again relates to you cultural community. Of youre trying to raise a jewish child, do you want them to look "normal" at the Y, but look "weird" at the JCC. And to look normal to non-Jewish partners, but to have major "explaining" to do with a Jewish partner? This goes beyond the specific religious injunctions.

Asher · February 28, 2003, 15:17

The health issues of circumcision...

Detailed link can be given upon a PM request, in addition to much more information it contains pictures which I'm not sure if I'd get banned for.

Quote:

Objective
To assess the type and amount of tissue missing from the adult circumcised penis.
Materials and methods
The gross and histological features of the prepuces of 22 adults obtained at autopsy were assessed, primarily focusing on the inner or mucosal surface of the prepuce.
Results
Skin and mucosa sufficient to cover the penile shaft was frequently missing from the circumcised penis. Missing tissue included a band of ridged mucosa located at the junction of true penile skin with smooth preputial mucosa. This ridged band contains more Meissner's corpuscles than does the smooth mucosa and exhibits features of specialized sensory mucosa.
Conclusion
The amount of tissue loss estimated in the present study is more than most parents envisage from pre-operative counselling. Circumcision also ablates junctional mucosa that appears to be an important component of the overall sensory mechanism of the human penis.

Asher · February 28, 2003, 15:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
I wonder how many circumsized men are truly unhappy with their shlongs and wish they weren't circumsized. I've never met one.

That's not really the point. Circumcized men generally don't know what they're missing anyway, they're usually circumcized their entire life.

The point is, there's more risk than benefit medically from circumcision, which is why the Canadian Pediatric Society (among many others) do not recommend the procedure unless for religious or other medical reasons...

Just admit that you'd get your boys circumcized so they'd look like daddy and save your time, Sava.

MRT144 · February 28, 2003, 15:24

asher, master of schlong

Zero · February 28, 2003, 15:28

Isnt it free if you get your boys circumcized at birth?

Hospital ad- "Pop a boy out of Uterus now and get a circumcision free!"

one more thing. Arent bananas circumcized before being eaten anyway? I've never seen a person NOT peeling the skin off before eating it.

Stuie · February 28, 2003, 15:32

Funny thing is, we didn't have it done and they tried to bill the insurance company for it anyway.... to the tune of several hundred dollars.

So no, it's not free. Nothing is free in a hospital, you just don't see the charges going back to the insurance company if you have a flat copay and ignore all those "This is not a bill" statements.

Asher · February 28, 2003, 15:34

It used to be "free" in Canada, but a long time ago now they removed it from coverage.

lord of the mark · February 28, 2003, 15:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Stuie
Funny thing is, we didn't have it done and they tried to bill the insurance company for it anyway.... to the tune of several hundred dollars.

So no, it's not free. Nothing is free in a hospital, you just don't see the charges going back to the insurance company if you have a flat copay and ignore all those "This is not a bill" statements.

well at least y'all dont have to pay for refreshments, invitations, etc.

Asher · February 28, 2003, 15:35

My Israeli neighbor invited me to her son's Bris years ago...quite an odd feeling really.

Boris Godunov · February 28, 2003, 16:25

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Which again relates to you cultural community. Of youre trying to raise a jewish child, do you want them to look "normal" at the Y, but look "weird" at the JCC. And to look normal to non-Jewish partners, but to have major "explaining" to do with a Jewish partner? This goes beyond the specific religious injunctions.

My post was directed specifically at Sava, who is neither Jewish nor religious, as he himself gladly affirms.

Quote:

asher, master of schlong

Hey! If anyone should be bowed to as a Poobah of the Penis, it is I! On your knees!

Stuie · February 28, 2003, 16:30

Quote:

Originally posted by lord of the mark

well at least y'all dont have to pay for refreshments, invitations, etc.

Too true!

Az · February 28, 2003, 16:57

Quote:

Hey! If anyone should be bowed to as a Poobah of the Penis, it is I! On your knees!

I was circumsized at age 8, so it was me who made the decision.

In any case, I think that under the current status quo, I think it should be left to the parents to decide. I am leaning stongly to ban it, or something, but the society is not ready for this.

Female mutilation:

disgusting, and should be persecuted.

Eli · February 28, 2003, 18:02

As long as it's performed by certified doctors, I dont care.

Currently in Israel most of the circumcisions are performed by Rabbies. The are trained for this, but still.

SlowwHand · February 28, 2003, 18:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Hey! If anyone should be bowed to as a Poobah of the Penis, it is I! On your knees!

If that's your best pickup line, you better count on some lonely nights.