Dominus Transcendi Challenge

Aredhran · January 8, 2000, 12:37

Dominus Transcendi

or

The Lord of the Transcenders

(Disclaimer: the Latin purists among you will, I'm sure, forgive me for the intentionally incorrect declension of Transcendi - assuming such a word existed in Latin in the first place

)

This is the moment you've all been waiting for, the Race to Transcendence duel between Velociryx and Zsozso ! I have been working on a map, which is pretty much complete now. I did my best to make the locations as similar as possible, but there are some differences, especially in Fungus, special resources and Unity Pod coverage (although the number of these is roughly the same on the starting continents).

I will now prepare the scenario setup, and send the save to the players and let them fight it out. May the best Transcendi win !

For reference, here's the initial discussion thread.

Reminder of world parameters
- Fully customized map, Large size, with two roughly identical big main continents, and a series of small islands
- Weak erosion, Average life forms, Average precipitations
- Some special landmark tiles have been placed on the continents, and there are the same number of each for both players
- Fungus, rockiness and unity pods/special resources have been randomized
- Look first ON, Blind research OFF, Spoils of war OFF, Tech stagnation OFF, Unity survey OFF, Random events OFF
- Each factions starts with 4 colony pods, 4 scouts and 4 formers, plus 200 energy credits

Game rules
- SMAC patch 4 game, UoP vs UoP, no AI
- The only victory allowed is Trancencance (obviously)
- It is not acceptable to build a strong military to destroy one's opponent since this would reduce the game to a conquest feat, and that's not the purpose of this challenge
- Small scale military interventions are authorized of course.
- No diplomacy until in-game contact made

Note: One of the players has been assigned the Hive slot, and therefore will have blue units and Hive base designs, and will look like Yang, but it's still UoP.

That's about it... If I forgot anything, or if you have comments, please post your suggestions and other remarks below !

A thread will be created on the Multiplayer forum for the game's administrative maintenance.

Aredhran
Dominus Transcendi CMN

PS: If there's enough interest for it, I can turn this into a Forum-wide tournament. Candidates will be matched in pairs, and when everyone has fought one match, I can create a second map for the next round. If you like the idea, post below...

[This message has been edited by Aredhran (edited January 08, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Aredhran (edited March 12, 2000).]

Aredhran · January 8, 2000, 12:39

Dominus Transcendi 1 (DT1) - Velociryx vs Zsozso, started 8-Jan-2000
Zsozso wins, as Vel decided to abandon due to Zso's decisive advantage

Dominus Transcendi 2 (DT2) - MichaeltheGreat vs LoD, started 17-Feb-2000

Dominus Transcendi 3 (DT3) - Bob vs mamajom, started 23-Feb-2000

Dominus Transcendi 4 (DT4) - Paul vs Tau Ceti, started 23-Feb-2000
Tau Ceti wins by Transcendence in 2216, Score 2771 (Pop 429, Tech 74, Projects 500, Bonus 1768)

Dominus Transcendi 5 (DT5) - Fistandantilus vs TigToad, started 13-Jul-2000
Fistandantilus wins by Transcendence in 2208, Score 2205 (Pop 247, Commerce 436, Tech 76, Transcendent Thought 10, Projects 250, Bonus 1186)

Dominus Transcendi 6 (DT6) - Mark13 vs Hobbes, started 09-May-2001
Mark13 wins by abandon of Hobbes, 10-12 turns away from Transcendence in 2209, Score 824 (Pop 291, Tech 58, Projects 475)

Dominus Transcendi 7 (DT7) - Misotu vs Paul, started 09-May-2001
Misotu wins by Transcendence in 2209, Score 2860 (Pop 328, Tech 75, Projects 675, Bonus 1782)

Dominus Transcendi 8 (DT8) - TigToad vs Misotu, started 09-May-2001

Dominus Transcendi 9 (DT9) - Paul vs Tigtoad, started 09-May-2001 - Tigtoad abandoned, replaced by Hobbes 15-Jun-2001

Dominus Transcendi 10 (DT10) - Vultur vs Chowlett, started 09-May-2001

Aredhran

zsozso · January 9, 2000, 01:24

Great many thanks for setting up this game, Aredhran!

Aredhran · January 13, 2000, 07:50

DT1 - MY 2110 status

Code:

              Zsozso     Velociryx
Technology                   X
Military         X
Population                   X
Wealth           X
Territory        X
Overall                      X


Alpha Centauri Score:
Population       3           5
Technology       5           5
TOTAL            8          10

Aredhran

PS: Let me know if this is too much/too little information...

[This message has been edited by Aredhran (edited January 13, 2000).]

Velociryx · January 13, 2000, 12:32

Wow....tight game....I like it so far!

-=Vel=-

Vi Vicdi · January 13, 2000, 23:18

Life of Brian flashback:

A joke name, you know, like Naughtius Maximus or Biggus ... Transcendus.

zsozso · January 14, 2000, 01:32

I enjoy it too, especially when it goes as fast as last night

- 6 turns a day, not bad for a PBEM!

BTW, Aredhran, could you create the same kind of table for 2105 too, please ? I know, we got past that the same day, but for consistency (we may not be able to go that fast every day...)

As for the contents: how about adding the number of units and energy to the table? Is that too much giving away ?

Zsozso
[This message has been edited by zsozso (edited January 13, 2000).]

Aredhran · January 14, 2000, 05:37

2105 will be coming up too. I just wanted to test the format and ask your opinions before I spent too much time on this.

Adding the units to the statistics is not a problem for me if it is not one for you. Same for Energy. Vel, what's your take on this ?

Aredhran

[This message has been edited by Aredhran (edited January 14, 2000).]

MichaeltheGreat · January 14, 2000, 23:37

I'm ready to rock and roll, Red H.

What exactly is "limited" military action?

It'll be hard to pull in my fangs for this one, but is sounds fun.

My PBEM availability is 19:00 to 09:00 GMT.

zsozso · January 14, 2000, 23:42

Yes, I wanted to ask for some clarification of the limited military action too!
Aredhran, could you elaborate, please ?

Zsozso

Velociryx · January 15, 2000, 19:11

I'm quite happy with the tables as they are, but I see no problem in posting the other stats as well.....

-=Vel=-

LoD · January 16, 2000, 15:25

I'm game too, if that's OK

.

I can do PBEM anytime after ~15 GMT, my usual times however are 15-16 GMT, and 19-21 GMT.

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---LoD
[This message has been edited by LoD (edited January 16, 2000).]

Lord Maxwell · January 16, 2000, 18:39

LoD and MichaeltheGreat: This thread is for the battle between zsozso and velocyrix, quite possibly the best two builders on here.

If you want some email games, check out zsozsos challenge, http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum27/HTML/000094.html

Or if you want to hone your single player skills, look at: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum31/HTML/000174.html

And leave the current champs be.

MichaeltheGreat · January 16, 2000, 21:54

Actually, LM, I was sent to this link by an ACOL post by Aredhran, who stated that he started this challenge, and asked if other players were interested.

I'd be happy to teach your two best builders, conquerors, or whoever, how to play SMAC. I already signed up for Zsozso's tournament. I haven't checked out the other thread, but I'm only interested in PBEMs against top level players. I gave up on single player SMAC, except for periods of extreme boredom, months ago.
[This message has been edited by MichaeltheGreat (edited January 16, 2000).]

LoD · January 17, 2000, 10:59

LM: Besides, why do you think the game between zsozso and Velocirix is called DT1

?

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---LoD

Helium Pond · January 17, 2000, 15:03

Thanks Aredhran! You got the ball in motion! I'm thrilled.

I understand the reasons for the rules, and for letting each person play the same faction, and all the other special customizations made to the game for the purposes of this challenge. I'm curious who will win, and it's exciting for the fight to have begun. However, I've been wondering if a slightly different challenge might also be interesting.

I'm the kind of guy who likes to pick "random" on the faction selection screen. It adds to the fun, for me, to have to make the best of whatever faction I get stuck with. This is half of my reason for wanting to see vel and zso fight under random conditions; with random factions and random starting locations, and may the best man win. The other half is that, without other factions in the game, and with a pre-designed, fair map, they're not really playing SMAC. They're playing something very close to SMAC, true, but not SMAC. The imbalances and unfairnesses are all part of the game, and they're a part of the game that I savor. Likewise, I'm not crazy about removing the other win conditions. It makes the game less interesting; if the players have to worry about the opponent trying to snag an early, cheap victory, they are actually playing SMAC. If not, they're playing a SMAC with training wheels. I understand that Builders like to play as if there's no other way to play the game, but by removing all the other elements from the game, somthing gets lost, a certain paranoia that's integral to "real" SMAC. All the current restrictions do is make it easier to play as a Builder. In true SMAC, being a Builder is something that requires strategy and care; in this set-up, it's a breeze. Of course, that's fine, it's fine to have specialized conditions, it's kind of interesting to make variations on the game and see who does the best under them. "Who would be the best Builder in a Builder-optimized scenario" is a valid question in its own right, and essentially what the Dominus Transcendi challenge is all about.

However: the way I had pictured the challenge was more along the lines of "What if Vel and zsozso, having never heard of each other before, happened to hook up for a multiplayer game?" They'd have to deal with all the other factions, they would have to either accept a random faction or argue over who got what faction, and they'd (probably) play with all the win conditions enabled, but each would privately be hoping to win by transcendence. That's the game I was interested in seeing. In other words, an Ultima Dominus Transcendi:

--either randomly assigned factions for vel and zso (which I think would be more interesting), or pre-agreed, different factions for each player.
--seven factions are in the game; in other words, they're playing actual SMAC.
--winner will be winner by transcendence, but a draw can be forced by another player nabbing one of the other win conditions before transcendence happens.
--obviously, there are no restricions like "limited military engagement"; the only rules of conduct are ones of personal honor, such as not doing really slimy city-trades with the AI, which I doubt either vel or zsozso would do.
--large or huge map, average life forms, average cloud cover, average erosive forces.
--look first, no blind research, spoils off, stagnation off.
--Survey on or off, up to players.
--random events also up to players.
--this is implied by the other rules, but I thought I'd make it explicit: it is perfectly fair to build a strong military to destroy one's opponent. The purpose of the challenge is to see who can win a transcendence victory under actual SMAC conditions, and that includes the condition of having a hostile military opponent. All victory conditions will be enabled, but transcendence will be regarded as a "true" victory, and all others as a "draw," because, under the imaginary scenario of vel and zsozso meeting each other on-line and starting a game, that's probably how they'd each privately feel.

I'm sure people's objections to this are going to be along the lines of, "But it won't be fair!" What if one person randomly gets Miriam? What if someone starts on a tiny island? It won't be fair! My reply is, yes, it won't be fair. Exactly. A real game of SMAC would not be fair. To coin a phrase, he true grit comes out when the s**t hits the fan.

While the Dominus Transcendi Challenge can be paraphrased as "Who's the best Builder under Builder-optimized conditions?", the Ultima Dominus Transcendi Challenge is more like "Who's the best Builder under actual SMAC conditions?"

Now, I'm very interested in the current Dominus Transcendi Challenge (and I also apologize for the probably-horrible latin of "Ultima", but I don't know no better), and thanks to Aredhran for setting it up. It's cool and exciting for it to finally be happening, and I'm dying to know the turn results. I just hope that the two giants, when they're done slugging it out on a level playing field, will have anough stamina left for a real game of SMAC...

LoD · January 17, 2000, 16:56

Helium Pond: AFAICT, this challenge was designed to show which of the opponents (in DT1, Velocirix and zsozso) is the best Builder. And, although I admit you have a point about this challenge making it too easy for Builders, there are two things in your post that collide with the purpose of Dominus Transcendi:

1. The AI
What is an AI faction to a beginner?
A worthy, dangerous opponent.
What is an AI faction to an intermediate
(casual) player?
An opponent that can be, in a matter of time, beaten.
What is an AI faction to an advanced (serious) player?
A sack full of energy, tech, and ready bases, just waiting to be cut open.
What is an AI faction to a super advanced player?
A place thanks to which his forces gain impact, a trampoline to propel him to victory.

As you probably suspect, my point is that, in a gross of situations, the AI is not a barrier for a player like Vel and zsozso - on the contrary, it makes one more powerful. And having a submissive faction right along the border early in the game will do wonders for your economy and tech proggress. It will simply unbalance the game.

2. RANDOMIZATION OF FACTIONS

Imagine, what happens if one person gets Miriam. In your post you state that it would be unfair for that person. But think about it: who plays Miriam as Builder? Nobody! And, with a help of heavy ICSing and the mentioned AI abusing, a Believering player will simply overwhelm his opponent in numbers! Mind you, he won't conquer his co-player. He will wait for him to surrender or build the AtT before him.

And what happens if both people get Conqueror factions? One word: Bloodbath.

CONCLUSION

Purism is an extreme. And, as a rule, one must not go into extremes, unless that's his goal. In this case, purism is not a goal. The goal is to show which player is the better Builder. Some counter-measures have to be established to prevent players from behaving in an unwanted way.

IMVHO, your Ultima Dominus Transcendi Challenge could be paraphrased as "Who's the worst motherf***er under actual SMAC conditions?"

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---LoD
[This message has been edited by LoD (edited January 17, 2000).]

Googlie · January 18, 2000, 00:04

Much as I hate to be at odds with anything brother Vel is involved with

I'm with Helium Pond on this set up.

The challenge as it stands - an artificial game with no AI - is just multiple Sim City. It's certainly not the SMAC that we play. It ranks right up there with the fastest conquest games claiming victory in 2115 because they built an 8 x 8 map and only had 2 factions to conquer (try it - it's a ten minute game). So what exactly does a multiple Sim City game prove - not SMAC expertise, that's for sure.

No, the Ultimate Builder Challenge is surely to take the most difficult faction to build with - Believers - and have them play a Compare game (parallel games on the same 2101.sav map)and put in a simple rule - they cannot capture another faction's base unless that is a recapture of a believer base previously lost.

Then see who is the best builder to transcendence. That's something we can relate to. Or the highest score by 2400 - to give them 300 years to build in the face of the AI and random events.

Googlie

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Putting a spin on it

Aredhran · January 18, 2000, 05:22

Thanks for the input. Here's a few remarks:

"Limited Military"
What I meant by this is, in the interest of actually reaching transcendence in non trivial conditions (ie. to really make it a race), I wanted to avoid a situation where one of the challengers will beat the other to a pulp (one city surrounded by troops). Fighting for an island to expand one's territory is fine, but full-scale invasion of the enemy's homeland is not acceptable.

This is in the interest of the spirit of this challenge, which leads me to the next point...

"Unrealistic, not SMAC"
Helium Pond, I think you have a valid point and I agree with most of what you're saying. However, the idea behind this challenge was indeed to play a "pure builder" type game, to see which one of two players would be the fastest to Ascend. This has been discussed extensively in other threads not only between Vel and Zsozso but also with the input of other players, and this challenge is the result of these discussions.

You're correct, it's not "real" SMAC (whatever that may be), but in my opinion, the game's setup is perfectly adapted for the Challenge's ultimate goal. What's the point of setting up that type of game to see it ended before 2200 by a rover rush ?

With these limitations in mind, I think a roughly equivalent starting continent with some rules limiting the gameplay, and using whatever game options available to remove of the random part is essential. The same goes for assigning the same factions to both players... You can't really hope to out-transcend a human-played UoP if you're a Spartan or a Believer (although you could beat the crap out of them and transcend after, but once again that's not the purpose of this game).

If you want to start another "full random" race to transcendence challenge, then by all means be my guest ! I'm sure you'll find plenty of people interested in playing it !

Aredhran

David Byron · January 18, 2000, 22:18

Although I can see why you want them in the same game the idea of "limited military" does seem oxymoronic. I mean if you don't want direct contact to jeopardise the builder idea then why not just give them the same scenario and see how they go?

Or is there some sort of non-military involvement which you think would be ok? I think you'd need to specify precisely what was allowed. What if one player rushes up some weakly defended cities on the other's continent thinking "he is not allowed to attack" and the opponent thinks, "well its not a BIG attack -- he's not got much defending..."?

Also. Have there been any military scenarios played out I could look at? Something like starting forces and some cities, no tech advance possible...?

Aredhran · January 25, 2000, 08:25

The only thing I want is to avoid a conquest victory. I guess the rest is up to the players to decide...

Stats for DT1 2125 added. I'm quite busy these days, the missing years will be added as time allows.

DT2 - MtG vs LoD will start soon if you guys are still interested.

Aredhran

gnome · January 25, 2000, 21:03

Where do you read the stats of the game in progress?

Aredhran · January 26, 2000, 04:16

Click the link in the second topic of this post

Velociryx · January 29, 2000, 18:06

Wow....Zsozso has outplayed me at every turn.....he's built up such an impressive lead that I don't know what the heck I can do to catch up....beating me by a single turn to the PTS was the last nail in the coffin, I think....now he's got twice my pop and I'm nowhere close to being in a position to catch up....::gulp:: All I can say is, kudos and hats off to Zsozso, for playing a masterful game! Oh, and, I nominate YOU to write the next strat guide!

-=Vel=-

Aredhran · February 4, 2000, 05:53

Status Updates posted in the DT1 Thread up to MY 2150. Zsozso is doing great. Vel, now would be the time to catch up...

[This message has been edited by Aredhran (edited February 04, 2000).]

LoD · February 14, 2000, 01:16

Aredhran: Of course

!

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---LoD

Aredhran · February 17, 2000, 15:58

DT2 started !

Paul · February 17, 2000, 18:03

If there's a DT2 does that mean there could also be a DT3? The concept sounds like it could be fun, so I'd be interested to play such a game of there are other players who would like to play.

Aredhran · February 18, 2000, 05:50

There can be as many DT's as there are players wanting to try the game. As soon as you find an opponent, I'll setup another game.

Aredhran

Paul · February 18, 2000, 11:21

Ok, so anyone who wants to play a DT game against me please post here.