The AI doesn't build Copters: Since when?

gwillybj · May 5, 2001, 20:59

You may not build 'copters. Ever. The AI doesn't use them so you shouldn't.
That statement is part of the rules for a "Challenge" scenario available at at least one popular SMAC/X fansite.

I wish to challenge that statement.
I have had a devil of a time in several (single-player) games in which Morgan harassed me severely with squadron after squadron of 'Copters, armed with whatever weapon was handy. I have been attacked by Miriam's 'Copter squadrons, too. I can't remember if I've seen the other factions building 'Copters because I haven't been playing the game much. I've been messing around with faction editing and trying to find a .pcx editor that won't cost me a month's grocery money.

In all of my games, the one and only option I've never seen any AI-run faction use is Nerve Gas. I have seen every other option used by at least one AI faction at some point in my games -- in many games, by more than one faction.
All of these instances were in games using the default alpha.txt and the seven unedited faction files, and I was playing as one of the standard (unedited) factions.

So, I guess my qusetion is:
Has anyone else seen the AI build 'Copters?
[This message has been edited by gwillybj (edited May 05, 2001).]

bondetamp · May 6, 2001, 01:15

I don't think I've ever seen an AI-copter!

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-bondetamp
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
-H. L. Mencken

Ned · May 6, 2001, 01:33

All the time. Wierd, though. The AI does not seem to attack a defended base more than once, when it has the power to clean it out! just like an human. Mostly the AI copters fly about and pick off crawlers. Now, that, while not leathal, is annoying. Ned

RedFred · May 6, 2001, 13:30

Yes I have seen AI 'copters, airdrop troops, Orbital wars, and on one occasion only (Miraim) nervegas. She repealed the charter and then sent waves of 6X-1-10s my way. I was a law-abiding citizen too!

Unfortunately, if you get far ahead of the AI you never see this stuff. If you are at parity with them or worse the quality of the AI unit selection actually seems to improve.

Misotu · May 6, 2001, 17:09

I've never had the AI use nerve gas on me ... but I've seen lots of games where Miriam (usually) has committed an atrocity against "x" faction. I've always assumed that was nerve gas ... although I haven't kept a close enough eye to swear that it wasn't base destruction. I've seen the AI destroy bases too - *my* former bases, after I'd probed for tech successfully, the AI UoP simply destroyed the base.

Very intelligent

Sometimes I think we are very hard and very critical of the AI ... I know it doesn't generally give a good game, but sometimes it surprises me still.

gwillybj · May 6, 2001, 20:52

Thanks, everybody, for letting me know I haven't gone completely insane

To Ned and Misotu: You have described exactly the type of things I've seen the AI do with Copters. Annoyance attacks, incomplete "invasions", other hap-hazard tactics.
Yang and his "chop and drop" (very cool term, Misotu

May I use it sometimes?) is so neat to see that I have a hard time being mad when he does it. What's really annoying is Morgan slicing-and-dicing all the defenders out of a base and then not capturing it

- not even attacking it again if I move in an available unit.

Miriam, on the other hand - that woman is just plain mean! (Despite all the kind words I had for her in another thread.) She was my neighbor, got herself all bent out of shape at me, captured three or four of my bases, and destroyed every one them

! It wasn't even MY2250 yet, but they were all size 3 or 4 and had some decent production and facilities. Then she called me and suggested a truce, with no strings attached. I accepted it, of course, as I just wasn't in the mood for a war. I proceeded to go build new bases in exactly the spots the other ones were in, while she went off and bothered somebody on the other side of her territory, without so much as a fart in my direction. In fact, we ended up Pacted somewhere along the line. I've looked high and low in her profile, but schizophrenia is not listed

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ti oun

Misotu · May 7, 2001, 00:09

Yes, I've certainly seen the AI build them in several scenarios - the key factor appears to be tech. If the AI is very strong, tech-wise, it will build choppers and use them. I've certainly lost bases to the Hive AI, which was not only using choppers but also executing a perfect *chop and drop* move

Great fun.

knowhow2 · May 7, 2001, 00:32

quote:

Originally posted by gwillybj on 05-05-2001 08:59 PM
In all of my games, the one and only option I've never seen any AI-run faction use is Nerve Gas. I have seen every other option used by at least one AI faction at some point in my games -- in many games, by more than one faction.
[This message has been edited by gwillybj (edited May 05, 2001).]

So to make your observation complete, I have seen the AI (Hive, who else) use the nervegas. All the other factions imposed sanctions against him.

The copters thing is actually common amongst the AI.

Earwicker · May 7, 2001, 11:47

I have only seen the AI use choppers in one or two games. I don't know what beeline the AI factions follow but they consistently get to D:AP shortly after I do but stagnate bigtime on their way to MMI and Fusion. Very strange. In fact, MMI isn't even something they bother me for (unlike D:AP, Fusion, and especially OSF).

Ironically, choppers are generally the only weapon I've seen the AI equip with nerve gas (so it's been awhile). Even when facing the world in vendetta, they will be loath to use it (as if sanctions actually were a consideration). Last night while playing the Zak/ Miriam scenario, I noticed that Zak was building an x-rover to try to kick me off his island. Wow, I say, unaccustomed to seeing that. I never got a chance to see if he'd use it, however

Just as an aside, I played on after the end of the scenario just to remind myself about playing with gas. I built a couple of 6x needlejets and knocked out Zak's last 2 bases. To my surprise, those 4 uses of gas sent my eco-damage (previously zero faction-wide)up to 25 for brand-new size 3 bases, and into the 60's for larger bases. Sacre bleu! I thought there was a little more leeway with the formula! I played the game for another 15 turns or so to see what major worm action looked like (not pretty), along with the rate at which 2000 meter ocean rising would take. Very interesting, and good reinforcement to why I play planet-friendly. Bottom line: it's hard to find time to build pressure domes when you have to build a new 1t-1-1 scout every turn.

johndmuller · May 7, 2001, 14:26

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker on 05-07-2001 11:47 AM
I have only seen the AI use choppers in one or two games. I don't know what beeline the AI factions follow but they consistently get to D:AP shortly after I do but stagnate bigtime on their way to MMI and Fusion. Very strange. In fact, MMI isn't even something they bother me for (unlike D:AP, Fusion, and especially OSF).

It looks to me like the AI simply asks for the "most advanced" tech when it comes to trading/gifting even to the extent where it might ask for Monopole Magnets when it could ask for D:AP instead. Similarly, it sometimes offers better trades than you would expect, like offering Fusion Power7 OTOH, I had a blind research game where it seemed like I was discovering and trading for all sorts of good stuff, but was never going to get Gene Splicing and Neural Grafting.

Googlie · May 7, 2001, 17:20

Just checked an old gamesave of a year or so ago. Lal, a pactmate, had 47 Shard SAM Choppers, and was fighting Dee who had a force of 50 shard noodles backed by 17 tacs. Interestingly Dee also had 88 foil transports (and had lost 49) and 1 planetbuster (had lost 17)

There were a total of 339 crawlers in the game - I had 338 and Lal had 1

If only the programmers had ..........

G.

Fitz · May 7, 2001, 19:32

I've never seen the AI use a chopper. I've never seen the AI use Nerve Gas. I've only once had a AI orbital laser dohicky attack my sats. Usually they don't even launch sats. I've never seen a drop AI unit drop. I've only once seen an AI launch a PB without me launching first(although I've played many games where they have them), and only once had retaliation when I dropped on after cancelling the UN Charter (that was a massive PB war too

).

Misotu · May 7, 2001, 20:10

quote:

Originally posted by gwillybj on 05-06-2001 08:52 PM
Yang and his "chop and drop" (very cool term, Misotu

May I use it sometimes?)

You most certainly may - only wish I'd invented it

Someone much cooler than me dreamed it up ... but it describes the event *perfectly*

Misotu · May 7, 2001, 20:13

quote:

Originally posted by Fitz on 05-07-2001 07:32 PM
I've never seen the AI use a chopper [...] and only once had [a PB]retaliation when I dropped one after cancelling the UN Charter (that was a massive PB war too

).

Fitz, you simply *have* to start playing seriously tweaked scenarios and seriously tweaked MP scenarios

Playing an overpowered AI, either singly or in teams, you will see these things commonly. The AI performs surprisingly well when it has you at it's mercy ... (shudder)

All right. You're *still* going to win. But you can have some twists and turns in the process. Honest ...

DilithiumDad · May 11, 2001, 18:12

I was the one who created the "tech parity challenge". I guess the correct statement is that the AI never uses choppers EFFECTIVELY. I have seen the AI make one or two choppers but they are only used to take our formers and crawlers. Anywya, they are way too overpowered to use against the pitiful AI.

Yang uses drop troops very effectively. I have not seen any other faction use them.

Miriam tends to make synthmetal sentinals even when she has the tech for silsksteel and fusion reactor.

Googlie · May 12, 2001, 02:51

First use of the term "Chop and Drop" that I recollect was Korn469 in the Spartan Chronicles 2 years ago

G.

Misotu · May 12, 2001, 20:08

I have seen the AI attack a base with a chopper in the scenario I'm, er, still working on after about 9 months or a year or something. Just don't have the patience to keep replaying ...

Yang attacked my base with a chopper (OK, my garrison was *woefully* underpowered by comparison with his weapon) and then dropped into it. But I agree, it's the only time I've seen this so it's true to say that the AI typically doesn't do it. On the other hand, watching Yang take out half a dozen crawlers with a single chopper is no fun, either

Skanderbeg · May 15, 2001, 08:57

I have seen the AI using copters a lot of times. In my last game the Peacekeepers and the Cyborgs, and I can remember a game with Caretaker copters. I also can remember at least to of my custom factions, played by the AI using copters.
An I can (sigh!) remember that game there Morgan crushed me with his choppers like a bug.

First he killed my formers and crawlers, backing up his copters with interceptors, so I couldn't destroy them (Morgan had Cyborg factory and cloudbase academy). Then he took out my base defenses, and at last came the transports with the marines

The AI often acts stupid, but I have seen the AI acting astonishing clever in some rare cases.

And I have seen Domai using nerve gas, as response to my own use of nerve gas.