Court: Informal: Is the Blood Truce with the Hive constitutional? - Page 2

Voltaire · March 3, 2003, 19:31

Just to clarify on the Foreign Affairs orders I gave, though they do not specifically state that we should accept peace with any warring faction, it is implied by the fact that orders state if their demands for peace are reasonable (which I classified as below 100 ec) accept it. Since there was no demand the proposal for peace was reasonable and hence should have been accepted.

Voltaire · March 3, 2003, 19:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Cedayon
Clearly the democratic thing to do is have the DFA post a poll as to whether or not the people want this truce with Yang.

Seeing as I was the DFA for the term, and I left the turnchat before the crisis resulted, I believe I should state my feeling on the issue. First of all, as stated above, the orders issued though not explicitly stating that we should accept peace imply that we should. I believe that it was the will of our people to have peace and avoid war, following that general will of the people all reasonable offers for a cease to hostilities should be accepted.

Hercules · March 3, 2003, 22:24

Ok I am going to post the poll.

Cedayon · March 3, 2003, 22:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
Seeing as I was the DFA for the term, and I left the turnchat before the crisis resulted, I believe I should state my feeling on the issue. First of all, as stated above, the orders issued though not explicitly stating that we should accept peace imply that we should. I believe that it was the will of our people to have peace and avoid war, following that general will of the people all reasonable offers for a cease to hostilities should be accepted.

I agree with the assessment that the people's feelings probably haven't changed on this. I said a new poll was the democratic thing to do (give them another chance to voice their opinions after a significant passage of time), not the necessary or even practical thing

Drogue · March 4, 2003, 07:12

If the court needs to rule, Adam sent an email out asking court members to declare if they are willing to hear the case by sending an e-mail to the other members. Since we need 3 judges, Adam volanteered, and the first e-mails I got were from Cedayon and the one I sent myself, can be begin to debate this? Preferably quickly, as we need to know which save to use.

GeneralTacticus · March 4, 2003, 07:16

Quote:

Preferably quickly, as we need to know which save to use.

For Governors (who issue most of the orders), knowledge of which save to use is superfluous, because whether we are at war or at peace with the Hive won't make one iota of difference to most decisions.

Drogue · March 4, 2003, 07:22

Yes, but we need to know by next turnchat, at the latest. Therefore, it is fairly urgent.

GeneralTacticus · March 4, 2003, 07:24

We still have, what, 5-6 days? It's not so urgent that you should be scrambling to make a decision.

Drogue · March 4, 2003, 08:14

No, be it's urgent enough that we should be starting to debate it. As it is, I believe (although Adam has not yet confirmed this) that Cedayon, Adam, and myself are hearing it, since we were the first 3 to reply to Adams message asking for judges that could hear it. It may take a day or two to get a verdict. No massive rush, but fairly quickly is what was asked for, and I believe it is needed. Of course it must be debated properly however.

Cedayon · March 4, 2003, 09:28

I've been trying to determine whether this is really a constitutional issue, since it doesn't seem to say anything about orders being "outdated" or about who can order the initiation of contact with another faction (specifically whether Herc wasn't allowed to do so).

Kass seems to be available too, but in either case just let me know if I'm needed for formal deliberations.

Maniac · March 4, 2003, 10:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Cedayon
or about who can order the initiation of contact with another faction (specifically whether Herc wasn't allowed to do so).

Yes the constitution does mention that:

Quote:

The Director of Foreign Affairs will do all foreign negotiations.

Cedayon · March 4, 2003, 12:04

And since Voltaire, rather than Hercules, was the DFA at the time of the turnchat, no one was present with the authority to order the contact?

Voltaire · March 4, 2003, 19:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Cedayon
And since Voltaire, rather than Hercules, was the DFA at the time of the turnchat, no one was present with the authority to order the contact?

Did the Hive attempt to contact us or did we contact them?

If they contacted us then I gave the authorization to negotiate and therefore the question is a non-issue.

Cedayon · March 4, 2003, 19:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire
Did the Hive attempt to contact us or did we contact them?

If they contacted us then I gave the authorization to negotiate and therefore the question is a non-issue.

I'm under the impression that Hercules requested the communication, and that Yang didn't initiate the contact.

Hercules · March 4, 2003, 19:50

That is correct. I requested*, (not ordered), contacting other factions for their up to date views on world matters.
(* Is a request an order?)
I also asked was it risky? Meaning that say contact with Deirdre for example may have sparked an unreasonable request (as can be her way) from us and to which we did not have the authority to answer.

But there is also another issue regarding the collective responsibility of the cabinet. If for some reason a Dir is unable to attend a turnchat (or has to leave for some reason - sleep, communication breakdown, on holiday , the call of the Japanese schoolgirl) and an issue comes up in the game (and it is not an emergency), should the Dirs, Commish and At, present, be able to take on collective responsibility within the parameters of polled policy on that area.

They did it (recently) with choosing the next tech to research. There was no suggestion that the turn be saved or the game adjourned until the 'new tech to research' was polled.

In short if the policy guidelines and latest instructions are followed does it matter if the Dir is present at the turnchat.

Hercules · March 4, 2003, 20:00

There is one further point which is worth discussing ( before I poll on it) and it is this.
Is it reasonable to expect the DFA to have to wait for an communication appoach from the AI

Quote:

The Director of Foreign Affairs will do all foreign negotiations.

but do they always have to wait until contacted by another faction first.

As Cedayon mentions we could be within reach of a diplmatic victory if we wanted to but to have to wait until spoken to would be a ridiculous situation.

Hercules · March 4, 2003, 20:02

There is one further point which is worth discussing ( before I poll on it) and it is this.
Is it reasonable to expect the DFA to have to wait for an communication appoach from the AI

Quote:

The Director of Foreign Affairs will do all foreign negotiations.

but do they always have to wait until contacted by another faction first.

As Cedayon mentions we could be within reach of a diplomatic victory if we wanted to but to have to wait until spoken to would be a ridiculous situation.

EDIT Sorry about the double post

Kassiopeia · March 5, 2003, 10:03

Fellow Justices

I'm available for deliberation, I just hope I'm not too late here, my ¤#(&/#@ PM system went dead on me and failed to notify me of new messages in any conceivable way (even though it was supposed to) and I was busy yesterday so I couldn't reply to your PMs until today. I thought no PM deliberation was happening since I assumed I hadn't received any; I got suspicious when Drogue said something about emails, but my mailbox didn't have any new msgs.

MrWhereItsAt · March 5, 2003, 17:30

For the sake of me being able to post orders, I beg the Court to deliberate quickly - the poll is split 50/50 on war/peace, and that makes my job VERY hard to do. I think a few people are voting purely because they think the peace is unconstitutional, rather than on what they think would be best for US. A Court decision would mean I know we are at war or peace, and can plan accordingly.

GeneralTacticus · March 6, 2003, 01:59

What do you mean, split 50/50? 55% said war, 45% peace.

MrWhereItsAt · March 6, 2003, 16:30

It was split when I posted that. All's happy now.

Maniac · March 6, 2003, 16:51

Okay, judges, are you nearly finished with your discussions about what save to use? If I don't know the answer by Saturday, I'll have to talk with MWIA about installing a military junta.

MrWhereItsAt · March 6, 2003, 16:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
Okay, judges, are you nearly finished with your discussions about what save to use? If I don't know the answer by Saturday, I'll have to talk with MWIA about installing a military junta.

But Maniac I thought we already decided on a dic- oh.

/encryption on

Cedayon · March 6, 2003, 19:35

I've been trying to figure out what exactly the constitional issue is here...

The closest thing I can come up with is that Herc requested contact with the Hive, and GT granted that request. Stale orders then hit the fan.

There's much ado in my pm box about private deliberations, meanwhile it remains somewhat unclear to me what I'm supposed to be deliberating... the constitution is fantastically vague on almost all of this.

As for the military junta, I think I've still got that crown around here somewhere, Emperor Tacticus

GeneralTacticus · March 8, 2003, 09:05

Ok, as of right now, we need a decision on this within abotu 8 hours or so, tops.

Cedayon · March 8, 2003, 11:05

I've already made my decision, but there's some dispute amongst us. Sorry for the delay, I am but one.

Maniac · March 8, 2003, 12:02

Okay guys, unless all of the judges deliberating this case will be present half an hour or so before the turnchat, we need a decision now. Could you then please just post your vote here on what save to use, and the one with the most votes is used.

Cedayon · March 8, 2003, 13:00

I consider the initiation of contact with Yang to be unconstitutional (Herc had no grounds on which to make the request, GT had no grounds on which to grant it).

Therefore I "vote" that the "old" (not really old, the only difference being whether the contact has taken place or not) save be used, and things proceed from there.

Note that I prefer peace with the Hive (until we can stomp them), and thus naturally would prefer the after-contact save, but since that peace occured due to an unconstitutional decision...

Drogue · March 8, 2003, 13:33

I think we decided to make deliberation and voting private, in PMs, as opposed to posted here?

I think using the old save is unconstitutional, since we are in a more privilaged position than we were before. We have information we should not have were we to use the earlier save. Yes the truce was unconstitutional (I think they can make contact, but signing the truce was not constitutional) but I think it has been done, and thus using the earlier save is unconstitutional.

I vote for using the later save, but declaring war. This is the most realistic, as the truce has been signed, albeit unconstitutionally. However with 4 judges, we need 3 to make a ruling, therefore we need both Kass and Adam to vote, and Adam hasn't been deliberating much.

Cedayon · March 8, 2003, 13:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
I think we decided to make deliberation and voting private, in PMs, as opposed to posted here?

I wouldn't have minded that, but time is short and the AT/acting commissioner did sort of request it.

And yea, I have no idea where Adam is.