Official: Preffered Society Models

[Lemmy]

An information gathering poll to see what society models the citizens prefer.

Vote once in each of the categories Politics, Economics and Values

Time: 3 days.

[Cedayon]

D/F/K, no question.

[Pandemoniak]

Demo / Planned or Green / Knowledge, as everyone knows.

[Voltaire]

Demo/Green/Knowledge

[Archaic]

Demo / Free Market / Knowledge OR Wealth (Whichever gives the best results at the current point in time is fine by me)

[Drogue]

Demo/Green/Knowledge

[GeneralTacticus]

Same as Archaic.

[Lemmy]

Ok, i know enough, i'll start another info gathering poll tonight for Democratic/Green/Knowledge energy settings, with the detailed effects of the different settings.

[Jamski]

Demo/Green/Know-how.

-Jam

[Method]

d/f/k

[Kirov]

d/g/k

[Maniac]

Bizarre. Now the FM-ers are being seriously defeated again.

[Aaron Blackwell]

Politics : Democracy is a no brainer, we are the peacekeeper right ?

Economy : Voted green though I would like to mention that Free Market does have its big advantages.

The things is, Free Market is subject to diminish returns as time goes by and our faction grows, while green effects and bonuses are constants. Free Market drawbacks can be fought but at a big cost, Green drawbacks require less focus to manage, thus my final choice going for green.

Values : Voted Knowledge and not only because of the research bonus but also because Dem+Green+Knowledge = +4 total efficiency = possible 70% Research/ 30% Economy settings withouth energy loss. Compensate the lesser economy income by use of specialist ( like empath for example which combined with our faction bonus and the whole lot of infrastructure present could trigger golden ages).

The penalty in security ( - 2 probe) can easily be fought by use of "data guardian" ( minimal cost probe team garrisoned in our cities).

On the other hand, if we stick with Free Market Economics, it would be better to keep Wealth as a value to further increase the Economy bonus IMHO.

Finally, all of this is just my personal opinion on the matter

[Method]

i can't believe we're voting against FM. just as our research rate was decent and we were making a reasonable amount of money

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
Finally, all of this is just my personal opinion on the matter

How diplomatic.

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
The penalty in security ( - 2 probe) can easily be fought by use of "data guardian" ( minimal cost probe team garrisoned in our cities).

Hmm, don't we have the HSA and are thus immune to all enemy probe actions?

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
The things is, Free Market is subject to diminish returns as time goes by and our faction grows, while green effects and bonuses are constants. Free Market drawbacks can be fought but at a big cost, Green drawbacks require less focus to manage, thus my final choice going for green.

Bull.

1) How is Free Market subject to diminishing returns?
2) How are the effects of an Efficiency bonus a constant?
3) Why are you failing to acknowledge that a Planet Bonus yields diminishing returns in worm capture rates, and has no influence on eco-damage if there isn't any in the first place?
4) Why do you say Free Market's drawbacks can only be fought at significant cost when the current situation of 20% Psych and our campaign of Tree Farm and Hybrid Forest building proves otherwise?

[Method]

now, i'd like to hear some good reasons to run green over free market, without this turning into another "Archaic Vs Everyone" thread please.

[Kirov]

I have only RP reasons, TKG. FM is the best system until the last turns, it's silly to counterdict that. But in my opinion we are so strong that we can disband half of our bases and still win... So it's only the matter of fun, not victory.

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by TKG
now, i'd like to hear some good reasons to run green over free market, without this turning into another "Archaic Vs Everyone" thread please.

...

...

...

*breaks out laughing*

Not bloodly likely

[Kirov]

Originally posted by Cedayon
...

...

...

*breaks out laughing*

Not bloodly likely

As long as Archaic doesn't post here everything will go fine.

[Hercules]

Hello my name's Ahcraic I voted green. Wouldn't have it any other way.

What did you say, have I a brother somewhere, you mean like an anti matter brother.

[Aaron Blackwell]

1) How is Free Market subject to diminishing returns?

Okay, here is how it works :


Economy bonus brings out two things, bonus through square exploited by workers, bonus through pacts.
Efficiency works by removing a % of energy loss to inneficency (doh !)

Early game, this does not pose a problem. Few to none energy loss to inefficiency. At this time, Economy bonus of +2 and more will make energy income skyrocket.
Effeciency at this stage will only provide something like 1 or 2 energy per city ( often less).

As more cities are built and more energy is produced by city, more energy will be loss to inefficency. The result of that is that most of the extra energy will be lost due to inefficency and you will end up in a situation where +2 efficiency will result in more energy haversted than with +2 Economy for example.

Also, as cities grow bigger and bigger, you will run out of space for workers and have to use specialits. Economy bonuses will neither increase income from specialist nor will it reduce B-Drones ( as efficency on the other hand those in that case).

Now for the Economy bonuses for pact, you must remember how pact works :

- First of all , if you have 13 cities and you treaty/pact associate have 8 cities, only 8 of your cities will get commerce bonus.

- Second, the size of both cities count in the calculation, the bigger they are , the bigger the bonus. But as the bonus get bigger, so is the energy of that bonus loss due to inefficency.

- Third, the more you get powerfull, the less friendly the other factions will become toward you eventually resulting into pact being broken, along with the commerce bonus associted with it.

To summarize:

The more cities are built => the more they are away from hq => Inefficency gets bigger => These cities will generate less income through economy bonuses than those from HQ.

The bigger the income => the more energy loss through inefficiency.

Thus the diminishing return effect.
You start the game by trying to maximize your energy output, and then you end up trying to minimize the loss.

2) How are the effects of an Efficiency bonus a constant?

Efficency works in a similar way than inefficency. That is, by removing a percentage of energy loss to inefficency.

This can be both a good and bad thing.
A bad thing in the early game and becoming better and better as game progress. Early game, it means that few to no energy will be recovered from waste. Later in the game, it can result into having a lot of energy saved from waste.

Besides, also remember that in Free Market you are often forced to go 40% Eco/40% research/20 % psych which means that only 80% of your income will be usable against a possible 100% for simple, green and planned.

3) Why are you failing to acknowledge that a Planet Bonus yields diminishing returns in worm capture rates, and has no influence on eco-damage if there isn't any in the first place?

Where did I speak of that in my first message hum ?

Besides, if you consider mindworm capture as being the 'biggest' advantage of green, it is no wonder you refuse that economy model.

The main advantage of Planet is psy bonus ( especially against wild mindworms when sending pods with light infantery) and more manageable eco-damage. Mindworm capture is just a nice bonus to have.

As for not having eco-damage in the first place, I would very pleased if we could manage it. The thing is that it will be difficult with the boreholes being built and when minerals ehancement facilites will become available, eco-damage could very well become an issue again.

4) Why do you say Free Market's drawbacks can only be fought at significant cost when the current situation of 20% Psych and our campaign of Tree Farm and Hybrid Forest building proves otherwise?

First of all, the police penalty does not only results in the incapacity to use police units, it also results into drones being created through "pacifism".
In a time where we can create needlejet, that is definitely an issue.

It also pose problems when trying to expand, because pods will have to go alone unescorted making them vulnerable to surprise mindworms attack. And if we send escort it will create drones.

Finally, it will pose a HUGE problem when we'll have to make war with the hive ( and believe me when I say we will have to sooner or later )

These problems can only be fought by extra psy or by building a single military bases which will support most of our troops. Possible, but quite awkward if you ask me.

In green, this problem simply don't exist.

As for the Tree Farm/hybrid forest stuff, I see that you refuse to acknowledge one thing : These facilites only eliminte eco-damage from TERRAFORMING not from MINERAL OUTPUT. It's very possible to have lot of ecodamage with Tree Farm/hybrid forest and only forest exploited square simply by virtue of mass mineral production.

[Aaron Blackwell]

Bull.

How Archaic of you !!!

[Method]

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
The result of that is that most of the extra energy will be lost due to inefficency and you will end up in a situation where +2 efficiency will result in more energy haversted than with +2 Economy for example.

no, no you won't. that just will not happen.

Also, as cities grow bigger and bigger, you will run out of space for workers and have to use specialits.

that is a good thing.

Now for the Economy bonuses for pact, you must remember how pact works

you don't get a commerce bonus at +2 economy, IIRC

Besides, also remember that in Free Market you are often forced to go 40% Eco/40% research/20 % psych which means that only 80% of your income will be usable against a possible 100% for simple, green and planned.

must...resist..urge..of....archaic-style...name-calling!
you still make a shìtload more energy with +2 economy.

As for not having eco-damage in the first place, I would very pleased if we could manage it.

we can manage it. what are you talking about?

The thing is that it will be difficult with the boreholes being built and when minerals ehancement facilites will become available, eco-damage could very well become an issue again

yes, when mineral enhancing facilities become available. and even then, running green won't decrease the eco damage caused by that. negative planet ratings only increase eco damage caused by terraforming. if all our bases have hybrid forests which eliminate eco damage caused by terraforming then a negative planet rating makes no difference. Thus, eco damage will be the same under green as it will be under free market

It also pose problems when trying to expand, because pods will have to go alone unescorted making them vulnerable to surprise mindworms attack. And if we send escort it will create drones.

what are we doing expanding in 2264 anyways? i even posted a poll to cancel our planned sea bases because we have nobody to govern them

Finally, it will pose a HUGE problem when we'll have to make war with the hive

no it won't, really. a few choppers empty a base of its defenders, we send in drop units. with the ascentic virtues (which we have) it's only ONE drone created. so really, the effect isn't that great

As for the Tree Farm/hybrid forest stuff, I see that you refuse to acknowledge one thing : These facilites only eliminte eco-damage from TERRAFORMING not from MINERAL OUTPUT. It's very possible to have lot of ecodamage with Tree Farm/hybrid forest and only forest exploited square simply by virtue of mass mineral production.

you're contradicting yourself there you know. see above

[MrWhereItsAt]

Points on both sides noted. It should be easy to figure this out though. Which way provides us with more - +2 Eff, or +2 Econ? Eco damage I think has been established as not a problem that is addressable with a change to Green, and psi bonuses mean nothing to us unless Yang has lots of worms himself. You DON'T get a commerce bonus for +2 Econ, only +3 and higher. The Ascetic virtues basically mean war as a civ2-style Republic. Surely not a problem with that much we can ditch into Psych where we need to.

Thus diminshing returns set in, but may still be more than using a little bit more efficiently. That's just the way of the world, I guess, or how they WANT you to think it is.

/me wants to go back in time and actually VOTE on this - I always miss the SE polls.

[Cedayon]

As has been noted, +2 Economy is waaaaay better than +2 Efficiency in our case... so much better that we still make more ecs and lab points with only 80% spending (the other 20% going into psych and making a great deal of people happy, to the point of causing Golden Ages)... if we built a *LOT* more bases it might become a nearer thing, but as has been mentioned there really aren't plans for much expansion from this point.

And no, we aren't generating a single point of eco-damage, even in TKG's monstrous industrial base of DEM with 44 minerals of output. We've built way too many tree farms, hybrid forests, and centauri preserves (or at least we're getting to the third) for us to realistically be able to hit the clean-mineral limit without a mineral-increasing building (even then it wouldn't be easy).

We're dealing splendidly with the disadvantages of FM, with the possible exception of our limited ability to wage offensive military action, which will be less of a problem when we get the tech for choppers and such...

... I'm rambling, so let me put it this way:
Under FM 40/20/40 we:
-Make much more total money/lab points than we would under Green.
-Have many more talents, have several (9 or so?) bases in Golden Age, and (I believe) fewer drones than we would under Green (with no psych under Green, at least).
-Generate no ecological damage
-Can still defend ourselves perfectly well against anything short of a PB attack (we'll get orbital defenses soon enough, and none of our enemies have PBs... right?)

...
Oh, nevermind, I'll just go do something productive...

[GeneralTacticus]

And, of course, yet another thing in favour of FM is that even the pacifism disadvantage will vanish once Egegion becomes a military base.

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
And, of course, yet another thing in favour of FM is that even the pacifism disadvantage will vanish once Egegion becomes a military base.

Some people consider that a somewhat cheesy workaround... and I somewhat agree... but the game will let us get away with it, and it does make some sense.

[MrWhereItsAt]

How exactly is that done? Are we rebasing all offensive military units there and making everyone a specialist or building a Punishment dome or what?