Fusion Speeder Crawlers

[Ned]

Has anyone noticed that a fusion speeder crawler costs the same as a fission infrantry crawler?

I never did. That is, until my last game when I build one by accident and noticed the cost. I guess this shows too much historical reliance on "autodesign" which never suggested the upgrade.

Ned

[Misotu]

Yes. Fusion is one of the key breakthroughs of the game for any playing style, but for me this is one of its most important aspects. Rover crawlers and foil crawlers both become viable with this breakthrough. Prior to that, because I tend to go for energy rather than minerals, they're just too expensive.

I tend to have autodesign off and autoprune on. This forces me to design new units, and think about the implications of each more carefully (plus the list of build options stays at a sensible size!)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Yep design off & prune on. First game I played I left the auto design on. It overan the total # of slots available to combined active and obselete units and started retiring the oldest non basic designs. Poof went losts of garrisons.

[johndmuller]

I don't think I've studied the relative costs of the basic crawler units as much as their relative costs with Armor, where I believe the fusion infantry crawlers are probably cheaper. On the trawler side, it could be that the armored cruiser trawlers might hold their own or be cheaper than thier foil equivalents.

I've got a myriad of issues with the various workshop related features/bugs, so I try to have a lot of empty slots when I think I am close to getting a new reactor (where some of the nastiest features come out). I even make sure to "upgrade" obsolete designs that still have a slot despite there being no more units (it will then free up the slot) to help avoid having some units disappear; I don't know that this is necessary, but I do it anyway if I think about it. For sure I turn off the autodesigner, but I'm not sure that the autopruning does more than just move the superceeded units into the "obsolete" category (making them harder to find - although it helps you avoid building old stuff by mistake); I don't think it cleans out the zero unit obsolete slots above.

Being paranoid about having too many unit slots in use, I find that crawlers are often a pain as the game goes on. Since it doesn;t usually seem worth it to upgrade large numbers of them - the (usually insufficient) defense might get better, but you don't get any more goods and its like buying it all over again - I end up with several "generations" of crawlers tying up those prescious slots. Sometimes I go out of my way to "trade up" when I'm building an SP - taking the new crawler into the field and using the old one to cash in for the SP. I know that this doesn't take full advantage of the SP buying game, but I don't like to exploit that feature.

I don't do much MP, but IIRC some of the automatic workshop elements seem to stick around despite turning them off in MP. It seems that there are many areas where the same function is seperately programmed in SP and MP thus leaving open many opportunities for inconsistencies.

[Ned]

Johnd, Ever since I've take command of unit design, I rarely have more than twenty units of all types available. When I used the autodesign feature, I was constantly fighting the designer for slots. Autodesign is worse than useless.

I too have given up the crawler upgrade technique of competing with the AI for SPs. So the AI gets a few more SPs. This is only fair.

I find now that I design a number of speeder crawlers configurations of different mineral value. I then set a number of cities to working on crawlers in an SP race, trying to build in a given base the most expensive crawler the base can build in one turn. The game played this way is more challenging and exciting.

Ned

[Drago Sinio]

Also dont forget that if your SE settings and facilities allow you to build Elite troops, you get Elite crawlers too. They get an extra move, and are stronger on defense. It is worth it to build crawlers in a base with the Elite producing facilities, even if just for the extra move.

[Misotu]

Well, all I can say is that if you're down to building expensive crawlers then you're really past the AI. After all, let's face it, the AI *does not* build expensive crawlers in advance of the SP becoming available. And if you're building the crawler once the SP is available ... well, then there's no difference.

Try multi-player. Playing against humans is far more exciting and interesting. You will have to think about the game, and pull the stops out. Instead of applying yourself to making the game *fair*, you'll be applying yourself all-out to winning. Much more interesting

Yet another shameless promotion for the Apolyton tournament. But seriously, there are dozens of players here, and not all of them are arse-kicking experts. Newbie games are set up all the time to give people a chance of a gentle introduction.

Try it. You really might like it. I was terrified before my first game - and I got my arse kicked soundly. But I was totally *addicted*. This is where SMAC/SMAX truly shines - builder games, conqueror games, combo games, role-playing games ... it's all out there

well, here actually

[Ned]

Misotu, Before I bite on Multiplayer, I must confess I don't understand how such a game can be fun at all. I usually have an hour or two, late in the evening, to play. I like to play my turn, have the AI play its, and then play again. I believe I would go nuts if I had to wait for a human player to play his or her turn. PBEM games seem worse by a mile.

I have played Half-Life multiplayer. Here is where you see that humans are a lot better than the AI any day of the week. However, ultimately, I find Multiplayer boring compared to well done single-player games.

Let me say I used to play a lot of chess when I was younger. Indeed humans are tough opponents. But waiting for the human player to complete his turn is excrutiating.

I prefer bridge for obvious reasons.

Well anyway, just finding a tougher opponent is not enough for me.

[cbn]

Ned

As a newer MP competitor I want to also speak out in support of MP. I am currently about 50 turns into each of 4 games and it is intriging. yes the first few turns are slow but 1 hour of direct connection could get you past that before returning to PBEM. Genrerally my gaming now is made up with playing 1 turn each day in each of my 4 games. Turns take longer in MP because I find you really have to think about what you are doing in the context of what the other humans are doing.

Added to that is the email diplomacy once you have in-game contact. This is real diplomacy where there can be alliances, backstabs and long memories not the sterile stuff that the AI is programmed to say. Compared to the predictable AI, you never know what is coming in MP. The opposition is SO much better it is unreal and the diplomacy with humans is a whole new element.

I have not played SP in months other than to load up some old game to test a tactic. There is just no longer any appeal in trying to design more and more handicaps for myself to find the level where the game is hard but not impossible for me at my skill level.-- (OK if I play double blind tech stag as Miriam on a huge world where I place myself on a smallish island without a boat AND do not permit myself to use probes other than for probe defense)-- I just don't find that fun.

I love the idea going into the game that I might lose fair and square with no artificial handicaps-- For me, MP has made the game fun again and I can't wait for the next turn. Just my opinion. . . .

[Ned]

quote: Originally posted by Misotu on 05-17-2001 11:23 PM Well, all I can say is that if you're down to building expensive crawlers then you're really past the AI. After all, let's face it, the AI *does not* build expensive crawlers in advance of the SP becoming available. And if you're building the crawler once the SP is available ... well, then there's no difference. well, here actually

Misotu, I think it premature to conclude that the AI does not build expensive crawlers. I wish I had better data on this, which is why I raised the question in another post. But I have seen LAL pay well in excess of the necessary mineral count for crawlers and provide all the minerals necessary to build an SP in one turn. Whether the AI cashes all the minerals paid for is the very thing I have yet to determine.

What I do see, though, is that every AI cashed crawler is cashed for 30 minerals, even if mineral cost of the crawler is only 15. By itself, this is radically different from the rules that apply to a human.

What has happened since I abandoned the crawler upgrade trick is that I now get into races with the AI where we are both using crawlers. I have seen all AI cities within a 6-8 radius of the SP city suddenly change production to crawlers to win the race. This matches my own strategy, and so it is always close.

Ned

[Misotu]

Ned, I'm not knocking SP. If you are still playing it and having fun then I envy you, because the days when I could do that are long gone. Not because I'm an expert, but simply because the AI does not, and cannot, compete with intelligent human play.

cbn's post is a good one and pretty much summarises exactly how I feel too. I understand what you say about the excruciating wait Believe me, I've had a few. But as cbn points out, you overcome this by playing in several games simulaneously. That way, you always have something new coming in I am currently playing in around 15 games simultaneously. Now that's a challenge - keeping track of my strategy in all of them and taking each move knowing where I'm going next ...

I am famously slow ... my turns can take me 2 hours each at critical points. I spend so much time looking at the situation, thinking ahead, working out where I can deploy my resources most effectively. As a chess player, you must be familiar with this !

And there's no time limit on PBEM ... you take as long as you like. I do recommend it, in all seriousness. You can still play SP - but spice it up a little with a bit of real, thinking contact on Chiron. The only thing I regret about MP is that it killed SP stone dead for me, overnight ...