Secret Project Dependency

Net Maverick · May 13, 2001, 13:40

I've been thinking about the effectiveness of secret projects that cause you to be totally dependent on them...for example, Citizen's Defense Force, Virtual World, and the like...ones where its effect only holds when it exists. However productive they may be, once these projects are destroyed, you will be left defenseless. For example, if you build the CDF, and an opponent captures the base, every single one of your bases would be left without a perimeter defense, and if you're pit against a veteran gamer, this would be followed by a series of events that will eventually annihilate your empire. In a case like this, it would be better to manually construct perimeters and holo-theatres in your bases. This idea reminds me of science fiction novels where characters become completely dependent on advance technology and machinery for survival, and once it's taken away from them, they would not know how to do anything, thus having their lives endangered. Anyone have thoughts on this subject?

knowhow2 · May 13, 2001, 13:45

Well make sure those bases are placed in the centre of your empire and have plenty of probes in it. Although there is not much you can do against an AI controlled Buster.

,,,,,
I still thinks that all things consider, it's worth it to have SPs instead of 30 or 100 facilities extra.

Method · May 13, 2001, 17:13

if u got the cyborg factory or command nexus or anything where you get a free facility instead of building each individual thing then you would really save on maintenance costs. but if you lost it then your automatic elite(++) units will end up down to hardened...

icevic · May 13, 2001, 18:46

hehe, you got that right. If the AIs one day became PB loving, the first base I would lose would be my 7 SP costal citadel

That is the reason why I have empath and 24 drop probe teams based in three areas around the globe. If anyone decides to finish up their PB prototype, I would wait until the turn before completion and eliminate the production

Vic

Net Maverick · May 13, 2001, 19:08

Vic:

That strategy might work on single player, but on multiplayer, where crafty human players are likely to have the HSA or/and probe teams of their own guarding their bases...well, to put it simply, you'll wish you had Orbital Defense Pods.

knowhow2 · May 14, 2001, 05:44

Maverick

ahh you see Human Players Buster have limitied reach (normally 16 I think, 18 with Air Academy) so placing a Base far away from any close base and have patrolling seaprobes would do it. AI buster have unlimitied reach.

Akaoz · May 14, 2001, 09:38

I might be really naiive, but didn't they fix this in the v2.0 patch?

knowhow2 · May 14, 2001, 09:44

nope

Net Maverick · May 14, 2001, 10:30

knowhow2:

You're making a good point...never saw it that way

But still...if I had a sufficient amount of cash, I can just capture one of your coastal bases, rush build a PB, and watch the fireworks fly. Also, you can be targetted for mass probe attack, with the goal of subversion in the enemy's mind. But even if neither occurs, you cannot guarantee that that base would not fall...in extreme cases, it might be the victim of an asteroid strike.

Akaoz · May 14, 2001, 10:41

Are you 100% sure the bug is still there in SMAX v2.0? It's not (as far as I could tell) on the bug list compiled on theese forums...

-Alex

knowhow2 · May 14, 2001, 18:39

quote:

Originally posted by Net Maverick on 05-14-2001 10:30 AM
knowhow2:

You're making a good point...never saw it that way

But still...if I had a sufficient amount of cash, I can just capture one of your coastal bases, rush build a PB, and watch the fireworks fly. Also, you can be targetted for mass probe attack, with the goal of subversion in the enemy's mind. But even if neither occurs, you cannot guarantee that that base would not fall...in extreme cases, it might be the victim of an asteroid strike.

that's why I have a small army of seaprobes patrolling my sea border.

Akaoz,

I have all the pathces avaible and Busters from AI still hit targets (my bases) from way way off (further than 18).

Misotu · May 15, 2001, 20:37

Net Maverick, you are absolutely right. Many of these projects are all very well in SP, but when you are playing against human players, it's advisable to consider which SPs you build very carefully.

I have never built the Cit Def Force in multi-player, because as you quite rightly point out, it's a prime target in war and the loss of it has terrible consequences. Apart from anything else, perimeters are cheap to build and maintenance free. I *might* build the CDF in a game where I intended to be the attacker though - it's very useful to have an instant perimeter in a newly-captured base and I'd probably think it worth the risk.

The Cloudbase is similar - I have seen people lose it in MP and the consequences are even worse. Suddenly you're vulnerable to drop attacks *anywhere* and your defence against air attack is much reduced. Gains from any satellites are halved, you can't build decent morale aircraft. I know players who will build air complexes in key cities *before* taking the Cloudbase, quite deliberately, for this reason. If I were playing on a small-medium map, I would think very carefully before taking the Cloudbase - it's a very strong SP, but again aerospace complexes aren't too hard to build if you have a decent economy and fewer than 20 bases.

I would still build the VW as the University - if you lose it, you are in chaos for a turn but psych provides a quick fix at least.

In the vast majority of my multi-player games, it's not possible to build these projects safely in the heart of a huge empire. Against the AI, of course, I'd build anything I wanted

Net Maverick · May 16, 2001, 08:46

Misotu:

Have you ever played a MP game where you had perimeter defenses in your bases, captured the CDF from another player, and then your opponent recapture the base? If so, did the bases that had a perimeter defense constructed prior to the capture lose their defenses?

cbn · May 16, 2001, 10:24

Any facility that you create prior to building/capturing a "free-facility" SP stays in the city. I have noted that they seem to have an asterick indicating that they are redundant. If you are EXTREMELY confident that you can maintain the SP, you might consider scrapping these redundant facilities for ready cash. However if your SP base is at all vulnerable, it might be wise to hang on to those facilities.

As a general note I always try to

1. spread SPs among bases
2. try to place my SPs in bases in the interior of a ring of bases in the heart of my empire. The idea is to make it as hard as possible to destroy/capture. Realistically, if an opponent can capture this key base, they must have a military advantage such that I am dead anyway.

Net Maverick · May 16, 2001, 16:11

cbn,

Thanks for the input. Now I can confidently capture bases with dependent SPs in them.

Earwicker · May 17, 2001, 09:50

The asteroid strike has me more concerned than enemy action in most games. Spreading the SP's (1 or 2 per base -- except HQ w/ ME, SC, ToE) around is the best solution. Put HGP and VW in different bases.

The worst thing about losing the CDF or HSA to an invader is that base recapture becomes that much more difficult.

Misotu · May 17, 2001, 23:13

quote:

Originally posted by Net Maverick on 05-16-2001 08:46 AM
Misotu:

Have you ever played a MP game where you had perimeter defenses in your bases, captured the CDF from another player, and then your opponent recapture the base? If so, did the bases that had a perimeter defense constructed prior to the capture lose their defenses?

No, I have never had this happen. However, I have captured the CDF. I am pretty certain that, under the circumstances you describe, a constructed perimeter is a constructed perimeter. Which is to say that if you have built a perimeter in a base (or you capture a base which has a perimeter) that perimeter remains in place regardless of who owns the CDF.

When you take a base containing an SP that confers free facilities, you'll see a star against that facility in bases where it has actually been constructed. I have *never* seen a situation where that changes. Indeed, in MP, some experienced players will actually construct aero complexes in their key bases before building the Cloudbase. They do this because they want to retain an aero complex in the event that the Cloudbase falls.

So I am certain that you would not lose facilities under the circumstances you describe.

tyler666 · May 19, 2001, 22:15

Man SP's are cool and sense I bulid mine in well defended,well devolped,in short well off cities in the cradle of my often very large planetary empire I ussaly have nothing if anything I ussaly take the comps SP's and they sometimes counter-attack with everything they have chrusing my freshly made defense if they have enough units to do so and then they "take" an SP other than that im ussaly surpreme leader or part of the aliance that controls the planet b4 nukes are availble.

------------------
Tyler Messer
"Theres no time to discriminate hate every mother****er thats in your way!"