Gay bashing does still happen, contrary to misconceptions... - Page 2

Shi Huangdi · March 3, 2003, 15:19

Boris: I agree schools and playgrounds are bastions of some of the most virulent homophobia around.(Of course, children can be intolerant of being different in a whole multitude of ways, that whole culture is based around conformity) I would think almost no adults would support the type of stuff they did to the gay man in that article.

SpencerH · March 3, 2003, 16:35

Anybody who doesn't think gay-bashing is still an OIC recognized sport is not paying attention. I dont see the point of 'hate crime' legislation though. Is there someone out there who figures I'd beat the crap outa someone with a bat if I loved them. In this case, was the crime any worse because they targetted a gay rather than someone with short/long/middle length hair. Its just a sop to minorities.

Ben Kenobi · March 3, 2003, 16:47

Quote:

I'd say it should be classified as crime based on sexual orientation.

I agree, but sometimes it must be difficult to tell the motives behind the crime.

Crazy world we live in...

SlowwHand · March 3, 2003, 16:49

Why did Gays take on "Gay" as the name.
It was already a word, following up on Boris' note.

SuperSneak · March 3, 2003, 17:44

I'd like to report a hate crime myself.
Before we were married, my wife took me to the "Silverado", a gay bar here in Portland. Now, there were men of every type in there, but somehow, I must have been exuding a decidedly straight vibe (I swear I didn't have my cheeks clenched, but I may have been looking around warily) as I didn't get one invitation to dance all night! Toward the end of the night I was really starting to get conflicted about my attractiveness (though no one talking to me was exactly what I had hoped for in the first place!).
Well, this one scurvy guy started sidling up to me and I noticed he only had one arm!
If that isn't an assault on me based on my sexuality, I don't know what is!

Personally, I think this stuff really is abominable. I can't even begin to understand it at all...sheer, total ignorance and fear. If someone did that to one of my gay friends, I'd be totally incensed. I'm sorry it still happens, although the frequency does seem to be abating somewhat.

Boris Godunov · March 3, 2003, 17:50

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Why did Gays take on "Gay" as the name.
It was already a word, following up on Boris' note.

http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorg.htm#gay

Quote:

Gay

Much commentary about this adjective referring to homosexuals exists, mostly having to do with usage. Our concern here, however, is etymology and two mistaken notions prevail. The first is that gay, meaning homosexual, originated as an acronym for Good As You. The second is that it is of relatively recent origin, dating only to the late 1960s. Both of these ideas are in error.
Many, believe that gay came to mean homosexual only in the late 1960s with the Stonewall riot and the rise of the gay rights movement. This is not the case. The error these people are making is confusing the adoption of the term by the heterosexual community, and thus the English language as a whole, with its origin. The term is in fact much older, being used by homosexuals to refer to themselves with certainty as early as the 1920s, and possibly as early as the 1860s.

Lighter gives the earliest usage cite as a 1922 quote from Gertrude Stein's "Miss Furr & Mrs. Skeene" which appeared in Vanity Fair. It is uncertain, however, if Stein's use of gay in this case is a reference to lesbianism or to the [then] conventional sense of gay meaning happy:

"They were ... gay, they learned little things that are things in being gay, ... they were quite regularly gay."
The first unequivocal written use of gay to mean homosexual is in 1929, in Noel Coward's musical Bittersweet. In the song "Green Carnation," four overdressed, 1890s dandies sing:

Pretty boys, witty boys, You may sneer
At our disintegration.
Haughty boys, naughty boys,
Dear, dear, dear!
Swooning with affectation...
And as we are the reason
For the "Nineties" being gay,
We all wear a green carnation.

The penultimate line refers to the the 1890s, which were commonly called the gay nineties. In general usage, this appellation had nothing to do with homosexuality, but in this context, Coward uses it as a double entendre.

Gay appears again in 1933 in Ford and Tyler's Young & Evil. In 1938 in the movie Bringing Up Baby, the character played by Cary Grant, when asked why he is wearing women's clothing replies, "Because I just went gay all of a sudden." In retrospect, this is obviously a joke intended to slip past the censors. In their 1941 book Sexual Variations, Gershon Legman and G.V. Henry cite gay as a slang term for homosexual, which indicates that it was in use for some time prior.

Lighter also indirectly cites an 1868 song by female impersonator Will S. Hays titled, Gay Young Clerk in the Dry Goods Store. The lyrics do not explicitly link the word with homosexuality, but they can be interpreted that way, especially if sung by a man in drag. Then again, that may be reading too much into the lyrics. You be the judge:

"It's about a chap, perhaps you know,
I'm told he is 'Nobody's beau,'
But maybe you all knew that before,
He's a lively clerk in a Dry-Goods Store.
"O! Augustus Dolphus is his name,
From Skiddy-ma-dink they say he came,
He's a handsome man and he's proud and poor,
This gay young clerk in the Dry-Goods Store."

OK, so gay was definitely in use in the 1920s, and perhaps earlier, but how did the term come to be associated with homosexuals? Several possibilities exist, but the acronym for "Good As You" is not one of them.
The most likely explanation is that it derives from gaycat or geycat, a slang term for a tramp or hobo who is new to the road. Gaycats were commonly in the company of older tramps, implying a homosexual relationship. The term, according to Lighter, dates to at least the 1890s. Gaycats were employed as lookouts while other hoboes committed crimes. The OED2 cites the 1935 Underworld & Prison Slang by N. Ersine as defining geycat as a homosexual boy. The origin of gaycat is unknown. Green, however, says a gay cat was a tramp who offered sexual services to women.

Another possible origin is the late nineteenth century slang usage of gay to mean promiscuous. A gay house meant a brothel. This sexual sense of the term could have become associated with homosexual promiscuity and the heterosexual sense lost.

chequita guevara · March 3, 2003, 18:05

I know the first usage of the word gay in a movie was in Bringing Up Baby, when Katherine Hepburns's aunt asks Cary Grant why he's in a woman's robe. "Because I've suddenly gone gay!" I love that movie.

SpencerH · March 3, 2003, 18:07

So, perhaps it should be the Slut Rights Movement. Boris could then refer to himself as a slut. In general, that might get a little confusing though because then you'd have promiscuous sluts (slut-sluts) and non promiscuous sluts (?). This may need some re-thinking!

I dont think this requires any smilies.

Boris Godunov · March 3, 2003, 19:41

Quote:

Originally posted by SpencerH
So, perhaps it should be the Slut Rights Movement. Boris could then refer to himself as a slut. In general, that might get a little confusing though because then you'd have promiscuous sluts (slut-sluts) and non promiscuous sluts (?). This may need some re-thinking!

I dont think this requires any smilies.

It requires something, because I'm not sure what the hell you're saying...

Sava · March 3, 2003, 19:45

Violent crime is violent crime... hate is involved regardless of someone's sexual orientation or skin color. If you commit murder, you should get the same penalty regardless of whether its over a bet, a jealous lover, or anything else.... death!

ps. after the justice system is reformed

Boris Godunov · March 3, 2003, 19:48

Sava, once again...intent matters. That's why we differentiate First-degree, second-degree and manslaughter. Would you give out the same sentence for manslaughter as for first-degree murder?

Tiamat · March 3, 2003, 20:21

This article proves once again why when we go out we go out in numbers. My brother and I always go together or with a group of people and we stay in gay friendly neighborhoods, bars etc. But since he lives in Dallas that's very easy to do since they have a whole gay district. But we've always still subscribed to the theory that there is saftey in numbers.

See and I have problems with the degree thing. Murder is murder. The person is still dead. Are they just a little bit deader if it's a higher degree? Yes, I do understand the nuances of degree being a former legal secretary, but it just seems silly to me.

Sava · March 3, 2003, 20:22

Intent does matter... notice I said "Murder" not "if you kill someone"...

How is killing someone because they are gay worse than killing someone because of road rage (for instance). Both show instabilities, and both should have the same consequences. You misinterpretted what I said my dear Boris.

SpencerH · March 3, 2003, 20:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

It requires something, because I'm not sure what the hell you're saying...

From your own post "Another possible origin is the late nineteenth century slang usage of gay to mean promiscuous."

promiscuous = gay = slut

I thought it was humorous. I guess I have a strange sense of humor. I assumed it was obvious I was joking.

Shi Huangdi · March 3, 2003, 20:36

Hate Crime laws are good because they have more harmful affects then just the affected person. To repeat an earlier example I used, if I were to graffiti a wall with "YO SHI HUANGDI BE DA ORIGINAL PIMP", the effect would be far different then if the graffiti said "KILL ALL NIGGERS". The latter has a much more harmful effect and so deserves worse punishment. Similarly, what those three *******s do go beyond the affect of a normal beating, they have the potential to inflict fear on the entire gay community.

Tiamat · March 3, 2003, 20:40

Point to Shi.

SpencerH · March 3, 2003, 22:03

I agree. You learn something every day.

This thread has brought to mind a kid in highschool. His name was Elton Anwick and for all I know he might not have been gay, but an effiminate non-jock with a lisp and that name.....well. We had very little contact so I dont know the details but he had it pretty rough. Its no wonder that a couple of friends of mine who are gay (sluts

) never let on for an instant in highschool.

Jaguar · March 3, 2003, 22:16

So gay bashing still happens. And it's bad.

Now where is this thread going to go? We are all agreed.

Tuberski · March 3, 2003, 22:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Sava, once again...intent matters. That's why we differentiate First-degree, second-degree and manslaughter. Would you give out the same sentence for manslaughter as for first-degree murder?

But, using your example, if this man had happened to die, should they raise the charge from, say, manslaughter to second-degree murder, because it's a hate crime?

I've never seen a love crime.

no ack

Lawrence of Arabia · March 3, 2003, 22:18

whats the point of the gay olypcics? cant gays compete with straight people? im not against it, but why does it existe?

Boris Godunov · March 3, 2003, 22:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuberski

But, using your example, if this man had happened to die, should they raise the charge from, say, manslaughter to second-degree murder, because it's a hate crime?

I've never seen a love crime.

no ack

Hate Crime statutes don't work that way, AFAIK. They usually just allow judges/juries to impose lengthier sentences on people convicted of such crimes.

One of the reasons Hate Crime statutes are important is in instances where the victim dies. A defendant who might ordinarily only get 15-20 years for 2nd degree murder could incur a much lengthier sentence under Hate Crime laws.

Dis · March 4, 2003, 05:23

wouldn't that be 1st degree murder not 2nd?

In any case having hate crime laws just makes things worse if you ask me. That is just going to piss these skin heads off even worse, and they will commit more hate crimes.

Solly · March 4, 2003, 07:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
whats the point of the gay olypcics? cant gays compete with straight people? im not against it, but why does it existe?

Maybe straight athletes didn't want to compete with gay ones?

Sava · March 4, 2003, 09:51

Diss, that's F'ed reasoning

I'm torn on the whole hate-crime thing. I'm my little perfect world, punishment should be judged on the individual nature of the crime. If you assault someone and put them in the hospital, I don't really care if it's because you don't like gay people or if you fought someone over a place in line at the DMV. Punishment should be the same. But this issue encompasses the whole concept of punishment in general.

I guess you could say I'm not for having lighter sentences for people who commit "hate crimes"... I'm for stricter sentences for people that commit the same crimes for different reasons.

Sava · March 4, 2003, 09:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Boddington's

Maybe straight athletes didn't want to compete with gay ones?

As an amateur hockey player, I can officially say that the sexual orientation of your opponent doesn't (and shouldn't) factor in to the competition. If you are playing a sport and are uncomfortable with the idea that someone competing with or against you might be gay, then you have a problem and you need to deal with it. That's your problem, not the gay person's. Anyways, I wouldn't even mind a gay guy being in the same locker room with me. If anything, he could give a credible opinion on how hot I am.

SlowwHand · March 4, 2003, 10:14

You're a hockey puck, Sava.

Boris Godunov · March 4, 2003, 10:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Boddington's

Maybe straight athletes didn't want to compete with gay ones?

Hey, if straights are too afraid of the competition, that's their problem!

Lefty Scaevola · March 4, 2003, 11:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
There are a lot of stupid-ass people in the world.

Unintentional Irony. Cool.

SlowwHand · March 4, 2003, 12:03

RedFred · March 4, 2003, 14:06

Somewhat out of the blue and perhaps a bit tangentally, there was a man murdered in Stanley Park a year or two ago in what seems to be a clear case of gay-bashing.

At the time I said I would try to report on any updates on the police investigation that seemed to be stymied as I lived in Vancouver and would be more likely to hear the report. Rather than try to dig up the old thread, I will just tell you here that they have finally made an arrest last week and expect more arrests to follow.

By the way, I am not gay. Not that there is anything wrong with that.