A few questions about OCC

[epics]

1) If I live throug the hole game with one city will I get some extra points for it or will it be some kind of victory?
2) If I have only coal in my city radius and iron a little furhter connected via road will I be able to build the Iron Works?
3) What country is the best for OCC?
4) What government is the best?
5) What Great Wonders do you go for?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by epics
1) If I live throug the hole game with one city will I get some extra points for it or will it be some kind of victory?

Even if you win, your score will surely be the lowest of the bunch. All you get from OCC is personal satisfaction, and/or recognition.

2) If I have only coal in my city radius and iron a little furhter connected via road will I be able to build the Iron Works?

No. Both Iron and Coal must be within the city radius.

3) What country is the best for OCC?

It depends (as always!). I like to think of the civs in terms of their traits, since UUs are unimportant in OCC. Scientific is the best, hands down. Militaristic and Commercial are the worst. Expansionist is good if you know you're on a Pangea-type world. Industrious and Religious are both ok, although I prefer the former.

4) What government is the best?

Republic and Democracy. Unless you're Religious, however, I see very little reason to go democratic.

5) What Great Wonders do you go for?

These I consider very important:

Colossus
Great Library
Copernicus's Observatory
Newton's University
Theory of Evolution

Note that, depending on which civ you pick, some Wonders are more important than others, since you'll want to trigger your GA with a Wonder instead of your UU. Thus, if you have time in the Modern age, you may even build the Internet, if you lost all previous GA opportunities.

Hope this helps.


Dominae

[epics]

Originally posted by Dominae

No. Both Iron and Coal must be within the city radius.

So it's almost imposible to have Iron Works in OCC

depends (as always!). I like to think of the civs in terms of their traits, since UUs are unimportant in OCC. Scientific is the best, hands down. Militaristic and Commercial are the worst. Expansionist is good if you know you're on a Pangea-type world. Industrious and Religious are both ok, although I prefer the former.

Why Scientific?

Republic and Democracy. Unless you're Religious, however, I see very little reason to go democratic.

Why keeping out of democracy being Religious?

These I consider very important:

Colossus
Great Library
Copernicus's Observatory
Newton's University
Theory of Evolution

Why does everybody goeas for ToE? I don't like this wonder.

Hope this helps.


Dominae

Thx

[Dominae]

Originally posted by epics
So it's almost imposible to have Iron Works in OCC.

Yep. Only building one city does come with its disadvantages, and this is one of them.

Why Scientific?

The only thing that is really challenging in OCC is keeping in the tech race. Scientific makes task a lot easier.

Why keeping out of democracy being Religious?

Compare the differences between Republic and Democracy and you'll see that it is not usually worth the Anarchy.

Why does everybody goeas for ToE? I don't like this wonder.

If you get free techs from the Theory of Evolution that other civs do not have, you can sell them around for amazing sums. This ensures you position in the tech race, which, as I mentioned above, is basically all OCC is about.


Dominae

[Datajack Franit]

ToE boosts scientific research and avoids other getting it. I'd say the persians are the best to play with

[epics]

I'm absolutly against Indostrious. If you have only one city you don't have to have 'workers work faster', 'slower' workers will do the job just fine.

Oh, in that case ToE is quite good

Yes, not being Religious it's not realy worth it to go for democracy. Altgouhgt there is 150% workers effisency (spell?), but as I said: not very helpfull in OCC

[minke19104]

how the heck r u supposed to get any of the wonders, especially in the ancient age if you do not have more than 1 city (no palace prebuild). Also how do you make other civs not hate you to the point they just decide to attack ur civ. What difficulty level is this OCC game feasible? Do you mantain any army in OCC?

[Dominae]

epics, the Industrious trait is still quite useful in OCC. Your city grows quite fast when it does not produce Settlers, so getting all those tiles improved fast is important. Plus you can do stuff like create Colonies a lot faster. But clearly it is not extremely useful as it would be in a normal game. But then, what will you replace it with? Militaristic gives you a cheaper Harbor. Expansionist can be nice, but then you're probably tailoring your map to fit the traits you want (i.e. OCC on a Large Pangea map to make the best use of Expansionist). Still, contacting the other civs quickly is quite useful. I would rate Industrious and Expansionist equally high for OCC.

minke19104, OCC is definitely possible even up there on Deity. You have to try it out for yourself to be convinced. There are some threads here on 'Poly that can guide you though.


Dominae

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by Dominae
It depends (as always!). I like to think of the civs in terms of their traits, since UUs are unimportant in OCC. Scientific is the best, hands down. Militaristic and Commercial are the worst. Expansionist is good if you know you're on a Pangea-type world. Industrious and Religious are both ok, although I prefer the former.

I disagree. Half price improvements make little difference and Monotheism is often irrelevant if you have the Great Library and other scientific civs are doing well. At least before the PTW patch I haven't got, I don't find Scientific that useful.
OTOH Commercial gives you +2 commerce every turn as soon as you grow beyond size 6 and a starting tech on the way to literature. If you're lucky enough to get a river start, you'll grow to size 7 very soon.
Anarchy lasts less time if you have a small empire which counts against Religious. The Democratic switch is sometimes worth it just for faster railroading. But generally only if you have nothing to build. If you are Religious, switching the turn you get the advance will cost you no commerce. If you're Industrious and not Religious,
it's very unlikely to be worth it.
It's possible that an ancient GA will help you get the Great Library but a late as feasible GA is recommended. This means choosing a trait that is not shared by essential wonders. These are normally Industrious and Militaristic.
On a tiny map, archer rushing is feasible in OCC but otherwise it's not a good idea and Militaristic is almost useless.
This is why I prefer the French for OCC. But the Ottomans are Ok.

Originally posted by Dominae
since you'll want to trigger your GA with a Wonder instead of your UU.

I often trigger my GA with a UU. It may not be worth it having to build the Manhattan project or the Internet when a unit like the Siphae can kill modern age units eventually. I often have alliances or MPPs with neighboring civs in order to be less of a target. getting a few Siphae to a distant civ is often easier than building a useless1000 shield wonder.

Originally posted by minke19104
What difficulty level is this OCC game feasible?

For some reason, it almost seems to be a good strategy on Regent; I've never had any trouble. It's certainly feasible on Emperor but it's not easy. It's been done on Deity, just not by me nor will it be any time soon.
Map size has a large impact on the difficuly. On a smaller map it's generally easier for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by minke19104
Do you mantain any army in OCC?

It shouldn't be a priority. Often, I have 3 or 4 warriors for most of the ancient age. If you're actually involved in a war, a few troops are a good idea. I've had to repel 1 or 2 unit landings relatively frequently. I've built a few units to support a UU for GA timing before.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Nor Me
Half price improvements make little difference

Although the effect is obviously not as big when you've only got 1 city, half cost improvements will usually take off quite a few turns (Libraries in 3 instead of 7, etc.). That's not a bad effect when what you really want to be focusing on is the Wonders.

and Monotheism is often irrelevant if you have the Great Library and other scientific civs are doing well.

True, the free Monotheism is not that great since you do want to be controlling the Great Library. This of course changes with the new patch, making Scientific that much better (in general and for OCC).

At least before the PTW patch I haven't got, I don't find Scientific that useful.

Well, you've got a point about Monotheism, but you're ignoring Nationalism and Rocketry. The fact that the AI pays big money for these is huge in OCC. Getting these first or second is one of my main goals in OCC. Once you're getting all the AI's gpt, you're set for the Space Race.

OTOH Commercial gives you +2 commerce every turn as soon as you grow beyond size 6 and a starting tech on the way to literature. If you're lucky enough to get a river start, you'll grow to size 7 very soon.

The extra Commerce is nice, but not hugely important. The race for the Great Library is more a race for Shields than for Literature. But there is something to be said for have Alphabet as a trade commodity. Still, I still doubt this replaces the Scientific trait.

It's possible that an ancient GA will help you get the Great Library but a late as feasible GA is recommended. This means choosing a trait that is not shared by essential wonders. These are normally Industrious and Militaristic.

A nice argument, but I'm not big on the conclusion. Most of the Wonders you will be going for are Scientific, and very few are Industrious. So Scientific/Industrious is quite a good combo. So is Scientific/Religious. The problem comes with Scientific/Commercial or Scientific/Expansionist, since each of these trigger an early Wonder (Colossus and Great Library, or Copernicus). But as you can see there are good options available for Scientific without having to resort to Militaristic. That one half-cost Harbor is a pretty weak advantage.

On a tiny map, archer rushing is feasible in OCC but otherwise it's not a good idea and Militaristic is almost useless.

I'm not sure why you want to Archer rush anyway; are you planning on winning an OCC by Conquest? I'm not considering those types of games.

I often trigger my GA with a UU. It may not be worth it having to build the Manhattan project or the Internet when a unit like the Siphae can kill modern age units eventually.

The problem with triggering with a UU is that you have to go to war. I consider this a bad thing to do in OCC. Ideally you want to for the other civs to be at war with each other, but Gracious toward you. Unless you're willing to spend a lot of resources on defense, your best plans will be ruined when the AI shows up with a couple of Tanks. It is much easier just to stay peaceful.

As an Industrious civ, you have the option of triggering your GA with the Hoover Dam, which comes at quite a good time: you do not have much to do production-wise before the Modern age.



Dominae

[Mad Bomber]

Dominae:


Your Wonder list is good but it limits you to a diplomatic or spaceship win. The easiest and quickest way's to win an OCC are to focus on the big cultural wonders to get your city to 20000 cp.

If you go the culture route you will need to add these three wonders to your list.

1) the pyramids- If you are industrious you can build these from the start and with 4cp it will be useful very early on, it also will grow to 8 cp/turn when it has been existed for 1000 yrs (best if built before 1500bc)

2) J.S. Bach's Cathedral- With 6 CP/turn this wonder is a virtual gold mine of culture when built early (hopefully before 750AD) this wonder rocks in OCC.

3) Shakespeares Theatre- Highest culture per turn in the game (8) its like having two Universities in the city!! If you can build it before 1050 AD this wonder will be providing 16 CP/turn before the game ends.

Looking at an OCC perspective the traits religious and scientific are the most useful followed by expansionist and industrious.

[minke19104]

Wont you be hard pressed for a Space ship win, if you have but 1 city and the rest have 5-6 of them??

And whats the point of having Hoover Dam and/or Pyramids if they can only help your 1 city?

[Mad Bomber]

minke:

You build the pyramids in OCC for the culture not the granary it would provide. I do not recommend building Hoover in an OCC. In the ancient world the Great Library is the best wonder, followed by the Pyramids (for the culture) and then the Colossus.

[pedrojedi]

Maybe the Hoover just to take out of the AI hands.

"That little city-estate has everything that is good! Pyramids, a nice theatre (a guy shakespierre or something built or acted in it), a big piano (Boch is its name?), and a big gigantic hydro plant d*mn!"

[Dominae]

Mad Bomber, you're right about Cultural versus Spaceship wins: your Wonder and improvement choices can be quite different depending on your overall goal. I restrict myself to Spaceship wins exclusively when playing OCC, because 1) that's what was required in Civ2 (not really a good reason), and 2) I find Cultural wins quite easy and rather boring (a very good reason). Winning culturally involves getting the AI not to attack you, and trying to orchestrate things so that one civ does not get too powerful. Building the spaceship requires a lot more challenge come the Modern age.

I mentioned the Hoover Dam above not because its effect is all that useful, but rather in the context of wanting to trigger a late GA as an Industrious civ. It comes at a time where you do not have much to build, and it usually triggers a GA on or around the beginning of the Modern age.


Dominae

[Datajack Franit]

Most of the GW are built just for the sake of not having the AI using them

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Dominae
Mad Bomber, you're right about Cultural versus Spaceship wins: your Wonder and improvement choices can be quite different depending on your overall goal. I restrict myself to Spaceship wins exclusively when playing OCC, because 1) that's what was required in Civ2 (not really a good reason), and 2) I find Cultural wins quite easy and rather boring (a very good reason). Winning culturally involves getting the AI not to attack you, and trying to orchestrate things so that one civ does not get too powerful. Building the spaceship requires a lot more challenge come the Modern age.

I mentioned the Hoover Dam above not because its effect is all that useful, but rather in the context of wanting to trigger a late GA as an Industrious civ. It comes at a time where you do not have much to build, and it usually triggers a GA on or around the beginning of the Modern age.


Dominae

Hmm, apparently you are in search of a challange, a spaceship with a OCC definately qualifies. I usually disable the culture victory in my normal games but I wouldn't find a culture win with an OCC a cheap win unless you are playing on a really low level. Do you try for diplomatic wins with OCC or limit yourself to spaceship only? Finally one last point: anyone who can win by conquest with an OCC is a CIV 3 master.

[Dominae]

I'm sorry if I made it seem like a cultural OCC victory is an easy feat. It is not always obvious how to survive with only one city, and keep up in tech enough to get a shot at those Culture-heavy Wonders. But actually getting the Spaceship built is a whole other ballgame. Since I know this is possible (I've done it once or twice), I'm willing to dub the "real" OCC challenge the spaceship OCC victory.

Diplomatic OCC wins are in the same category as cultural ones, IMO. Since your power is irrelevant to your chances of winning diplomatically (unlike in SMAC), all you need to do is 1) survive until the Modern age, 2) build the UN, 3) get all the civs to be Gracious toward you. Doing all three is easier than you would think.

Conquest OCC? On a Standard map and above, that's a real challenge! Having only finished one Conquest game myself, I can also say it would be extremely frustrating. My hat is off to anyone who does it (I know someone will, eventually).


Dominae

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by Dominae
Well, you've got a point about Monotheism, but you're ignoring Nationalism and Rocketry. The fact that the AI pays big money for these is huge in OCC. Getting these first or second is one of my main goals in OCC. Once you're getting all the AI's gpt, you're set for the Space Race.

They're nice but they come late. It's more important that you actually get the wonders you need in the middle ages. This relies too much on you being ahead by then. If you can get enough gpt to cripple the AI, you have little use for it in the Industrial age. Commercial giving 8/12 beakers pt is not going to be anywhere near as good at this stage but at least it gives you science faster. That's only equivalent to 12gpt off every other civ. If you can get to the industrial age that early, you are likely to be able to get a tech lead at some point (ToE being the obvious one.)

Earlier than that, Commercial is better than Scientific.

The race for the Great Library is more a race for Shields than for Literature.

Really? How? Unless you get Literature fast, the Pyramids will be built first. Then getting literature first would give you a headstart on building the GL. Or is it that your relative shield output is growing at that time so there is an advantage in not getting literature so early that it will be extorted before this peaks? I wouldn't have thought so. I don't think the AI shield output for likely cities will have reached the happiness limit then. Or am I just talking complete ********?

So Scientific/Industrious is quite a good combo. So is Scientific/Religious. The problem comes with Scientific/Commercial or Scientific/Expansionist, since each of these trigger an early Wonder (Colossus and Great Library, or Copernicus). But as you can see there are good options available for Scientific without having to resort to Militaristic. That one half-cost Harbor is a pretty weak advantage.

I'm not sure why you want to Archer rush anyway; are you planning on winning an OCC by Conquest? I'm not considering those types of games.

I wasn't trying to argue that militaristic is that good (except in that no trait is that useful.) The main point of this was to back you up on the usefulness of Industrious.
The Colossus is Religious, Expansionist and Commercial and a GA triggered by the Great Library would be the worst possible timing. That is why Militaristic would be my second choice of partner for Scientific. Civ3 is more boring if you only play Indusrious civs.

I have archer rushed for a non-conquest victory before. But I started right next to the Germans.

The problem with triggering with a UU is that you have to go to war. I consider this a bad thing to do in OCC. Ideally you want to for the other civs to be at war with each other, but Gracious toward you. Unless you're willing to spend a lot of resources on defense, your best plans will be ruined when the AI shows up with a couple of Tanks. It is much easier just to stay peaceful.

In an ideal world, yes. The trouble is normally when neighbouring civs are also at peace.

You should be in a position for your neighbours to protect you from a couple of tanks. I often prepare the necessary units as a back up plan even if I'm aiming for a wonder trigger.

As for the Hoover Dam, you said it:

you do not have much to do production-wise before the Modern age.

It's just too early.

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Finally one last point: anyone who can win by conquest with an OCC is a CIV 3 master.

On deity or a huge map, obviously.

I had an OCC conquest win in the only game I tried. I may have been lucky but it shouldn't be too hard on regent and a tiny map from a fair percentage of starts. I certainly don't consider myself a CIV 3 master.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Nor Me
They're nice but they come late. It's more important that you actually get the wonders you need in the middle ages. This relies too much on you being ahead by then.

In my OCC games Nationalism and Rocketry are critical to success. Nationalism gives you some breathing room after the end of the Medieval age "rush". It gives you some buying power in a important and tech-heavy part of the game. Rocketry is equally important, since once you're in the Modern times, it's a race to get all the techs before that AI does so that you have time to complete all the SS parts. If you set yourself up to sell Rocketry to all the non-Scientific civs, it makes the race a lot easier.

Earlier than that, Commercial is better than Scientific.

You get 2gpt + 1gpt from a Marketplace. At banks you get an extra +1 gpt. That's hardly comparable to 2 free techs and cheaper Libraries and Universities. Another thing to consider is that the entire game is important in OCC (if you're going for the Space Race). The extra bit of Gold you get early on will not be a big deal in your overall success (although, admittedly, I would never refuse an extra few gpt in an OCC game!).

Really? How? Unless you get Literature fast, the Pyramids will be built first. Then getting literature first would give you a headstart on building the GL.

In my experience on Emperor, you get to Literature pretty fast. You can prebuild the Great Library with either the Pyramids or the Oracle before then.

I wasn't trying to argue that militaristic is that good (except in that no trait is that useful.)

I realise that now. My bad.

The Colossus is Religious, Expansionist and Commercial and a GA triggered by the Great Library would be the worst possible timing. That is why Militaristic would be my second choice of partner for Scientific. Civ3 is more boring if you only play Indusrious civs.

Huh? We're talking strategy here; "boring" does not enter this discussion. By your arguments, I think that Scientific/Industrious is the a great choice for OCC, regardless of whether you think Industrious is boring or not.

Note that another option is not to build The Colossus. This removes the GA problem for many civs.

I had an OCC conquest win in the only game I tried. I may have been lucky but it shouldn't be too hard on regent and a tiny map from a fair percentage of starts. I certainly don't consider myself a CIV 3 master.

I will not go so far as saying that Tiny map Conquest victories are easy, but they do not depend so much on skill. There must be something close to an algorithm for beating Deity on a Tiny Pangea map.


Dominae

[Catt]

I have limited experience with OCC. I have played 5 or 6 OCC games - one on Monarch, one on Warlord, the rest on Regent. My first few games were under what I later learned were absurd rules (never having played Civ II) -- no units leaving my cultural radius (i.e., no huts, no offensive actions, no trade until well into the middle ages). All wins have been cultural or diplomatic - never tried SS or the military wins. With these caveats, my one useful (hopefully) contribution:

The Colossus is a huge wonder for an OCC game -- it offers a "half" Golden Age for the entire game (culture or diplo) and for at least 2/3's of the game for a spaceship win.

Catt