Official Poll: War or Peace with Yang

[GeneralTacticus]

I didn't say they were no threat to us; I said we were unlikely to take many casualties during the war. The Hive does pose a small threat to us, and is a big impediment to us in at least one way: they hold one of three votes blocking a Global Trade Pact.

As for your point about Hive casualties - please tell me you weren't being serious. You're actually concerned that we're going to kill too many troops in an army whose record of war crimes and human rights violations in unmatched in the history of this planet?

[MrWhereItsAt]

Keep in mind that we will be freeing the majority of the Hive population from the savagery of their leadership. It's a question of acceptable losses. Moreover, if Hive troops fall in battle, it is not on my hands, nor your hands, the Commissioner's nor any other Peacekeeper. It is Yang who has brought this situation down upon us all, and it is he who must be made to answer if he sends his own people to their deaths in a war of his engineering.

Would you have us sit by pacifically and turn a blind eye to the terrible tortures and injustices this so-called "human" inflicts upon followers of his own principles? Everyone has the right to life, freedom and the pursuit of self-fulfilment as guaranteed by the UN for centuries. Yang is denying this to those who followed him, unsuspecting of the treachery he would force upon them.

Merely a glance at the figures held by our Information Networks in a city such as The Leader's Horde reveal the depravity of Yang's leadership. So much of the city's population has been press-ganged into the military and terraforming corps that until recently the population was in active revolt. Keep in mind that this population is comprised of those who follow the principle of working for a common good - they do not revolt against their leadership without good cause. In fact the sudden cessation of the drone riots is in itself suspicious, and some sources claim Yang is nerve-stapling in order to preserve his hold over the faction.

I would point out the base of Mendeleev College, a base taken off the defunct University movement some time ago by Hive forces. This base was small, but not distant from other Hive bases, and was a mix of both University and Hive personnel. Until recently that base was the location of Yang's considerable air forces. But, in the last few years the base was attacked by a hitherto unseen number of mindworms. Yang had, in the form of his airforce, the opportunity to easily defend this base, and indeed to net the people there a sizeable Energy bonus from planetpearls retrieved from the boils. Yet instead the airforce was ordered to the East coast of Yang's domain where they are idling. The people of Mendeleev College had no chance. Everyone was killed, in what must be the most horrendous natural tragedy ever to befall humanity on this world. One can only imagine the terror of these people, as the enormous mindworm boil, estimated to have been 10 kilometres wide and 40 metres high, closed in on their town. Some reports taken from the infiltrated networks there include footage of people flaming themselves instead of facing the attack, with their own worm-defence flameguns. The excruciating deaths following the exhaustion of their fuel reserves does not bear thinking about.

Yang has shown himself to be incapable of governing his followers with a view to their wellbeing and safety. We have no choice but to remove him.

[GeneralTacticus]

Indeed. Not to mention the fact that hsi economic policies will bankrupt his faction within 6 years, which will cause even more suffering to the Hive people.

[Hercules]

Wow, some discussion after the poll.

[Voltaire]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
I didn't say they were no threat to us; I said we were unlikely to take many casualties during the war. The Hive does pose a small threat to us, and is a big impediment to us in at least one way: they hold one of three votes blocking a Global Trade Pact.

So this would be a war for economics reasons more than political? We want to get the Global Trade Pact passed, so we go in take out Yang who is preventing us from doing so, and come back to our nice homes all happy because now we’ve just nearly doubled our profits. Money isn’t everything, frankly I cannot consider the Global Trade Pact issue as even remotely a justification for war, we cannot go around destroying factions simply because they are preventing us from making slightly more profit. I daresay that our policies are terrifyingly close to those of American in Earths last century.

As for your point about Hive casualties - please tell me you weren't being serious. You're actually concerned that we're going to kill too many troops in an army whose record of war crimes and human rights violations in unmatched in the history of this planet?

I am being serious, as you yourself have pointed out Yang is the tyrant here, his soldieries have little choice but to follow orders (well that or die). We cannot hold anyone other than the upper echelons of government responsible for possible crimes against humanity in the Hive. Not every soldier is guilty.

Also what crimes??? Seriously, I do not recall Yang ever doing anything to anyone except for invade the University (which we have no right to condemn when we are perfectly willing to invade the Hive under humanitarian pretenses), he doesn’t agree with our ideals of democracy, nor the ideals of a free market so many Peacekeepers hold dear.

[GeneralTacticus]

So this would be a war for economics reasons more than political? We want to get the Global Trade Pact passed, so we go in take out Yang who is preventing us from doing so, and come back to our nice homes all happy because now we’ve just nearly doubled our profits. Money isn’t everything, frankly I cannot consider the Global Trade Pact issue as even remotely a justification for war, we cannot go around destroying factions simply because they are preventing us from making slightly more profit. I daresay that our policies are terrifyingly close to those of American in Earths last century.

No. Please stop trying to distort what I say to make it match the way you think. I did not say that it was worth going to war to gain votes for the trade pact. I said that the Hive poses a small threat to us, and noted that it also impedes the pasage of the pact.

I am being serious, as you yourself have pointed out Yang is the tyrant here, his soldieries have little choice but to follow orders (well that or die). We cannot hold anyone other than the upper echelons of government responsible for possible crimes against humanity in the Hive. Not every soldier is guilty.

If they committed those crimes, even if under roders, they are guilty. We do not excuse people from committing crimes even if they were threatened with death.

Also what crimes??? Seriously, I do not recall Yang ever doing anything to anyone except for invade the University (which we have no right to condemn when we are perfectly willing to invade the Hive under humanitarian pretenses),

List of Hive crimes:

1) The violent supression of the Drone Riots that swept their faction some time ago.

2) The deliberate starvation of New Azarmas in University territory in order to suppress a revolt there.

3) Implementation of a police state.

And, yes, the invasion of the University does count as a crime, as it was unprovoked. There is no comparison between our intentino of overthrowing him in order to ensure that he will not attack us, and Yang's invasion of the University for territorial conquest.

he doesn’t agree with our ideals of democracy, nor the ideals of a free market so many Peacekeepers hold dear.

So what? He's still wrong. If I decide that murder is not wrong, does this mean I am allowed to go around killing people for any reason I like, or for no reason?

[Voltaire]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Keep in mind that we will be freeing the majority of the Hive population from the savagery of their leadership. It's a question of acceptable losses. Moreover, if Hive troops fall in battle, it is not on my hands, nor your hands, the Commissioner's nor any other Peacekeeper. It is Yang who has brought this situation down upon us all, and it is he who must be made to answer if he sends his own people to their deaths in a war of his engineering.

It is by our hands that those troops fall, we are the ones authorizing the invasion, we are the ones sending soldiers there to kill. Yang would only be defending himself against our aggression. War of his engineering?!? He agreed to a ceasefire, we are the ones refusing it. He would be defending himself as I said above, I don’t think he has much choice but to fight us, what do you expect him to do, roll over and die?

Would you have us sit by pacifically and turn a blind eye to the terrible tortures and injustices this so-called "human" inflicts upon followers of his own principles? Everyone has the right to life, freedom and the pursuit of self-fulfilment as guaranteed by the UN for centuries. Yang is denying this to those who followed him, unsuspecting of the treachery he would force upon them.

Again, what is he doing? Please enlighten me since I don’t know. I keep hearing “Oh Yang is bad, we need to go get that evil man.” And yet I don’t know why. We say everyone has a right to those things, but I find it ironic that economic equality isn’t included on that list, something that Yang provides for him people whereas we under a free market do not. Yes, we stand for all those ideals, and just because Yang doesn’t, and just because his people follow different ones, we need to go take him out? I mean look at the situation in the former Soviet Union at the end of the 20th century, people were longing for the days of Stalin because at least than they had jobs, something to eat. I think when it comes down to it, people value bread more than freedom, so please spare me the self-righteous bullshit of how the glorious Peacekeepers are going in to save the poor enslaved people of the Hive.

Merely a glance at the figures held by our Information Networks in a city such as The Leader's Horde reveal the depravity of Yang's leadership. So much of the city's population has been press-ganged into the military and terraforming corps that until recently the population was in active revolt. Keep in mind that this population is comprised of those who follow the principle of working for a common good - they do not revolt against their leadership without good cause. In fact the sudden cessation of the drone riots is in itself suspicious, and some sources claim Yang is nerve-stapling in order to preserve his hold over the faction.

Ok finally some actual evidence, thank you. I prefer this to our own propaganda (also ignore my rant above, I didn’t read this section while writing it). Ok, so Yang had drone riots, so what??? We did as well, does this meant that the Hive should invade us for oppressing our own people because they revolted against the government. And the sudden cessation of drone riots does not mean that he committed an atrocity, perhaps he built infrastructure in order to stop the riots, or increased psyche spending. Let us not jump to conclusions.

I would point out the base of Mendeleev College, a base taken off the defunct University movement some time ago by Hive forces. This base was small, but not distant from other Hive bases, and was a mix of both University and Hive personnel. Until recently that base was the location of Yang's considerable air forces. But, in the last few years the base was attacked by a hitherto unseen number of mindworms. Yang had, in the form of his airforce, the opportunity to easily defend this base, and indeed to net the people there a sizeable Energy bonus from planetpearls retrieved from the boils. Yet instead the airforce was ordered to the East coast of Yang's domain where they are idling. The people of Mendeleev College had no chance. Everyone was killed, in what must be the most horrendous natural tragedy ever to befall humanity on this world. One can only imagine the terror of these people, as the enormous mindworm boil, estimated to have been 10 kilometres wide and 40 metres high, closed in on their town. Some reports taken from the infiltrated networks there include footage of people flaming themselves instead of facing the attack, with their own worm-defence flameguns. The excruciating deaths following the exhaustion of their fuel reserves does not bear thinking about.

This is better evidence. Well Yang is currently at war with us, perhaps he considered his air forces too important to risk given that he fears (justly) that we might invade. And we do not know what occurred, it was a great tragedy, let us not jump to conclusions simply because we are looking for an excuse to go to war.

Yang has shown himself to be incapable of governing his followers with a view to their wellbeing and safety. We have no choice but to remove him.

Again you’ve only cited two examples, both with are suspect. What about the situation in the rest of the Hive? I would say that the majority of Hiverian citizens are content under Yang’s rule. I mean he may be a monster on the level of Stalin, but as I said he at least puts bread on their table.

[GeneralTacticus]

It is by our hands that those troops fall, we are the ones authorizing the invasion, we are the ones sending soldiers there to kill. Yang would only be defending himself against our aggression. War of his engineering?!? He agreed to a ceasefire, we are the ones refusing it. He would be defending himself as I said above, I don’t think he has much choice but to fight us, what do you expect him to do, roll over and die?

Given that he was the one who originally started the war and the one who has stated that he will go to war again if we do not implement our own police state, then yes, the war is his responsibility.

We say everyone has a right to those things, but I find it ironic that economic equality isn’t included on that list, something that Yang provides for him people whereas we under a free market do not.

I must ask this in all honesty: Do you have even the slightest idea what you're talking about? The only reason there's even the slightest degree of equality in the hive is because there's so little wealth to go around in the first place.

Ok finally some actual evidence, thank you. I prefer this to our own propaganda (also ignore my rant above, I didn’t read this section while writing it). Ok, so Yang had drone riots, so what??? We did as well, does this meant that the Hive should invade us for oppressing our own people because they revolted against the government. And the sudden cessation of drone riots does not mean that he committed an atrocity, perhaps he built infrastructure in order to stop the riots, or increased psyche spending. Let us not jump to conclusions.

As a matter of fact, he eliminated Psych spending a while ago, and the reason for the cessation of drone riots was his imposition of yet more iron-fisted security measures.

This is better evidence. Well Yang is currently at war with us, perhaps he considered his air forces too important to risk given that he fears (justly) that we might invade. And we do not know what occurred, it was a great tragedy, let us not jump to conclusions simply because we are looking for an excuse to go to war.

Yang would not have needed to risk his air force to protect the base; he would have only needed to send over a single squadron to flame the worms, and it would have been over.

Again you’ve only cited two examples, both with are suspect. What about the situation in the rest of the Hive? I would say that the majority of Hiverian citizens are content under Yang’s rule. I mean he may be a monster on the level of Stalin, but as I said he at least puts bread on their table.

I suggest that you actually examine the economic situation in the Hive. Not only have yang's policies resulted in an economic crisis that will bankrupt his faction within a decade, but Yang is also taking up more than half the annual industrial production of his faction to maintain his massive military machine. He is not putting bread on their table; he is taking it away.

[Voltaire]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
No. Please stop trying to distort what I say to make it match the way you think. I did not say that it was worth going to war to gain votes for the trade pact. I said that the Hive poses a small threat to us, and noted that it also impedes the pasage of the pact.

Fine, I withdraw my statements. I was simply attempting to demonstrate that we are not justified in invading the Hive to date.

If they committed those crimes, even if under orders, they are guilty. We do not excuse people from committing crimes even if they were threatened with death.

Wow, great choice. Kill or be killed. That’s right all those soldiers who follow Yang’s orders are guilty even if they did it at the point of a gun. I’m sorry I do not buy this. We cannot hold every person in an army responsible for orders they have little choice but to follow.

List of Hive crimes:

1) The violent supression of the Drone Riots that swept their faction some time ago.

2) The deliberate starvation of New Azarmas in University territory in order to suppress a revolt there.

3) Implementation of a police state.

1) We many disagree with their methods, but were they suppose to let the drone riots continue?
2) Not convincing, were they suppose to let the drone riots continue?
3) So just because they disagree with us they are wrong?

And, yes, the invasion of the University does count as a crime, as it was unprovoked. There is no comparison between our intentino of overthrowing him in order to ensure that he will not attack us, and Yang's invasion of the University for territorial conquest.

The University was allied with us for a time being, I consider that justification enough for an invasion. We could have potentially used the University as a base of operations for an invasions.

So what? He's still wrong. If I decide that murder is not wrong, does this mean I am allowed to go around killing people for any reason I like, or for no reason?

Your extended analogy falsifies your argument, homicide and political systems are two different things.

[GeneralTacticus]

Fine, I withdraw my statements. I was simply attempting to demonstrate that we are not justified in invading the Hive to date.

Yes, and you failed.

Wow, great choice. Kill or be killed. That’s right all those soldiers who follow Yang’s orders are guilty even if they did it at the point of a gun. I’m sorry I do not buy this. We cannot hold every person in an army responsible for orders they have little choice but to follow.

You may have a point, but I still fail to see why we should care if our methods of waging war result in many of them dying, especially when they have every opportunity to surrender.

1) We many disagree with their methods, but were they suppose to let the drone riots continue?

No, they were supposed to do something to actually satisfy their grievances as opposed to mowing them down in the streets.

2) Not convincing, were they suppose to let the drone riots continue?

See above. Quite apart from that, they ahd no right to be occupying the place at all, hence any measures used to maintain the occupation are unjustified by default.

3) So just because they disagree with us they are wrong?

You asked for an example of a crime; political repression is one.

The University was allied with us for a time being, I consider that justification enough for an invasion. We could have potentially used the University as a base of operations for an invasions.

No, we could not. The Provost repeatedly rebuffed our requests for an alliance, and declared war on several occasions, even while under invasion at the time.

Your extended analogy falsifies your argument, homicide and political systems are two different things.

Not when a political system expressly requires homicide.

[Cedayon]

Originally posted by Hercules
Wow, some discussion after the poll.

Don't ya just love it when they actually get to thinking about it after they've voted and the poll's closed?