research and tech -> most important aspect of a faction?

icevic · May 18, 2001, 19:10

Hello there! Do you believe that the faction with the most advanced tech will prevail in compete with the other rivals? It is true that labs are expansive to build and maintain, and the second pirority production would delay expansion. But if Zak went into war with the believers (if he is the agressor), Zak would eventually prevail with fewer troops but equipped with superior technology. The believer's strength is in the offensive, while being on the defensive side, they would be eventually be overran by Zak (also with his superior tech, he would get probe teams much sooner than the others would).

Also, being on the top of the tech tree make me feel better than having the largest standing military.

What do you think?

Vic

Kirnwaffen · May 18, 2001, 21:32

I have to disagree to an extent. True, being on top of the tech tree is important, but a bigger military slightly less advanced than their counterparts is better in my opinion. I find this to be particularly true in mid-game, when several factions may be competing in the tech area. I don't know about you, but I'll take my cheap and early 4 or 5 chaos units over 2 more expensive and later coming shard units.

icevic · May 18, 2001, 22:58

errrr... the Gaians just beat me to the Secret of Human Brain. How come a university can't even beat an environmental group in research?!!

Lemme restart and try again.

Vic

theohall · May 18, 2001, 23:36

No. Tech takes time. Building troops takes less time. You have to advance your technology fast enough to have time to build those fancy new units. Meanwhile, those less advanced units are already built and attacking you while you are more than likely still in the building phase.

It's all a matter of balance between protecting yourself with lesser units and giving yourself the time to develop the more advanced units.

One advantage the Gaians have - Centauri Ecology from the start. If Formers are used properly and with advantageous terrain, the Gaians can beat the University to Secrets of the Human Brain. It's not as uncommon as you might think.

Although if you are playing on Librarian level or less, you are doing something wrong.

tyler666 · May 19, 2001, 00:52

I must disagree as a conquerer i find it much easier to bulid more advanced units as they come and if im under attack (Wich rarely happens BTW

) I just bulid large numbers of cheap units wich will simply put beat the living **** out of a small high-tech rading force and BTW i feel much more comfortable having the greatest army on the planet as to being on top of techs because with an army i simply knock a bone out ur ass and take ur techs and proceed to make u my bicth (Submissive)!!!!

Tyler Messer
"Theres no time to discriminate hate every mother****er thats in your way!"

Misotu · May 19, 2001, 01:42

Tech will outrun a military strategy any day in SP except on a smallish map, because you will be *so* far advanced that it will be silly. You don't need minerals to build the units - as a tech faction, you build a single unit in a base with a skunkworks and then build basic planes/choppers etc and upgrade them as required.

Even if conquer victory is your aim, tech is key and an energy strategy is also pretty key. In MP, you can fare extremely well as a high-tech faction provided that you don't experience the early rover rush. Throw in perimeter/sensor/creche/aero/tachyon/AAA/best armour/ECM or TR depending ... and watch them crash and burn ...

[This message has been edited by Misotu (edited May 19, 2001).]

cbn · May 19, 2001, 08:29

and icevic why are you even trying for Secrets of the Human brain unless worms are a big problem ?(the early turn worms are actually pretty pathetic usually). Every tech you get increases the tech point cost of the next tech. As the university I would beeline to Industrial Auto for crawlers and the very useful Wealth SE. If you are aiming up a different tech path, fair enough but IMHO Secrets is a marginal tech that you have to research two other techs Biogenitics (useful) and Social Psych (usually not necessary early if building pods and keeping population down) just to get to SOTHB. I have not proven this mathematically but my feeling is that you get to Ind Auto quicker by beelining for it with no sidetrips up the tech tree.

I am never concerned about having the most techs, I just want to have the right techs. You can steal or buy the less useful techs later

mark13 · May 19, 2001, 09:08

I would agree that on the whole, you need to keep up in the tech race. However, what you have to remember is that there are other ways to get tech than to research it - and that is one of the major factors in making this such a great game. I have seen several instances of factions doing absolutely no research of their own, and keeping up in tech, thanks to a detailed understanding of the metagame, and clever use of probes.

Of course, in SP, this doesn't apply. You will outrun the AI in tech *every time* if you are playing anything like a builder game. Also, the AI is very reluctant to trade tech, and even then it is often not the tech you want. So, in SP, research is hugely important - in MP, less so.
[This message has been edited by mark13 (edited May 19, 2001).]

icevic · May 19, 2001, 14:45

quote:

Originally posted by cbn on 05-19-2001 08:29 AM
and icevic why are you even trying for Secrets of the Human brain unless worms are a big problem ?(the early turn worms are actually pretty pathetic usually). Every tech you get increases the tech point cost of the next tech. As the university I would beeline to Industrial Auto for crawlers and the very useful Wealth SE. If you are aiming up a different tech path, fair enough but IMHO Secrets is a marginal tech that you have to research two other techs Biogenitics (useful) and Social Psych (usually not necessary early if building pods and keeping population down) just to get to SOTHB. I have not proven this mathematically but my feeling is that you get to Ind Auto quicker by beelining for it with no sidetrips up the tech tree.

I am never concerned about having the most techs, I just want to have the right techs. You can steal or buy the less useful techs later

Hehe, you are right. I did it only because I want to have that fancy little message on the hall of fame saying I got the tech first

icevic · May 19, 2001, 14:56

quote:

Originally posted by cbn on 05-19-2001 08:29 AM
and icevic why are you even trying for Secrets of the Human brain unless worms are a big problem ?(the early turn worms are actually pretty pathetic usually). Every tech you get increases the tech point cost of the next tech. As the university I would beeline to Industrial Auto for crawlers and the very useful Wealth SE. If you are aiming up a different tech path, fair enough but IMHO Secrets is a marginal tech that you have to research two other techs Biogenitics (useful) and Social Psych (usually not necessary early if building pods and keeping population down) just to get to SOTHB. I have not proven this mathematically but my feeling is that you get to Ind Auto quicker by beelining for it with no sidetrips up the tech tree.

I am never concerned about having the most techs, I just want to have the right techs. You can steal or buy the less useful techs later

Waaahh! Really? Does that mean even if I want to go back and invest time on some level 1 military tech and the time spent would be the same as researching a level 5 build tech?

Nooo... have mercy on my researchers!!

Vic

tyler666 · May 19, 2001, 15:57

quote:

Originally posted by icevic on 05-19-2001 02:56 PM
Waaahh! Really? Does that mean even if I want to go back and invest time on some level 1 military tech and the time spent would be the same as researching a level 5 build tech?

Nooo... have mercy on my researchers!!

Vic

Damn thats gay

Tyler Messer
"Theres no time to discriminate hate every mother****er thats in your way!"

Misotu · May 21, 2001, 23:16

Icevic, I'm afraid that's exactly what it means. Every time you get a breakthrough, your tech cost rises. The cost of the next tech is exactly the same, no matter what level the tech ...

Earwicker · May 22, 2001, 00:33

Technology is key not only for the strength of units but also for the types of units involved. Number of units makes little difference if you can't shoot down those couple of needlejets that are blocking ZOC and picking off troops (whether invaders or defenders). And one Shard Copter can ruin your whole day.

That said, don't take too much comfort in technological superiority until you have the HSA. The whole situation can swing 180 degrees with judicious probe use. That innocuous bunkerful of 1-2-1 and 2-1-2 invaders can look a whole lot tougher when they get upgraded to missiles and plasma.

Skanderbeg · May 25, 2001, 08:02

I agree that the faction with the most advanced tech will normally the game.
But that doesn't mean that the faction with the best research (University or Cyborgs) will automatically be the best tech.
Research is not only controlled by the basic settings of Your factions, but far more by the lab enhancements You have, and these have to be build.
So, on long time, the factions with production bonuses will have the best tech, and this will be
the Drones and the Hive, who can build labs much faster than everyone else.
Other factions can pass the research factions in tech as well. Morgan simply can buy the labs, the Peacekeepers can build labs faster because they have more workers with their increased hab limits,
and the Cult can run through the tech tree with Alien Artefacts popped with its native life.

For my experience (this is valid only for blind research), the best research factions are (surprisingly ?) 1. Drones 2.Hive. 3. Peacekeepers.

Ogie Oglethorpe · May 25, 2001, 08:55

Quality vs. quantity is what we are talking about here. We also can be talking play style as well Builder vs. Hybrid vs. momentum style. ewach has its pros and cons and each is well suited to particular game environments.

For example:

A momentum (read low tech quantity style play) is best suited for high land mass and small world setting where other factions are within early striking distance. Impact speeders then become a fearsome weapon whilst others try to build infrastructure and forget arming and or defending themselves. This usually is effective during the first 75 turns of play. Factions with built in advantages like beleivers fanaticism or Spartans morale bonusses (and default speeder tech) make these factions ideal for this approach. Similarly native life factions (read cha dawn) is ideal as well. The downside is that if the momentum stalls wo be the faction as the house of cards can easily come tumbling down.

Builder (read high tech infrastructure builders with limitted but high quality units) is best suited for worlds where contact is going to be limitted. So the opposite applies huge worlds with lots of water to prevent early overruns. Left to themselves the techies will aquire an insurmountable tech lead and after aquisitionof fusion, choppers and shard weapon start to feel frisky and lookd to dominate the world.

Hybrids are somewhere inthe middle but end up sacrificing a little of the best of both.

All in all I don't think it appropriate to say one is better than the other it all depends primarily on game set up and then secondly seeding inthe world.

Og