Thread Tools
Old March 7, 2003, 02:42   #151
DinoDoc
Civilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
DinoDoc's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I believe the civil case that establishes that you can only use deadly force if you are threatened with deadly force comes from Mississippi. South enough for ya?
Civil case? Since when do they effect criminal law?
DinoDoc is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 02:45   #152
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
Torts and Crim Law flow together very often. And the people that write the Restatement of Torts are the same people that write the Model Penal Code (the American Law Review).

It ain't like there are different higher courts for criminal cases and civil cases.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 02:50   #153
SuperSneak
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
SuperSneak's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: In the land of the one-eyed
Posts: 3,262
I'm sorry to hear that. Violence of any kind was really no solution to the problem you faced. Flight was the best choice--and you did that well. That was very lucky--not many people could take that shot.
As for retribution, that would be very foolish.
I'm sure you running around the Projects with some broadsword reproduction would be pretty ineffectual and probably fatal.
I'd just be more aware of my surroundings (the immediate area anyhow) and stear clear of the usual suspects. The average person (of color or not) is not going to Pearl Harbor you as you toodle by on your bicycle.
It's obvious you're one of those people who is buffeted by the whims of fate, not one who wrestles them into submission...in your case, a good defense is the best offense, I think.

***
As for the whole DEATH TO INTRUDERS debate, I'll have to side with the "poetry of force" group. You espousers of the Queensbury Rules approach have obviously never been physically threatened, or don't have children, or are simply deluded. I'm sorry, but the last thing I'm prepared for if someone strange is in my home, is a speech.

I don't have a gun here because of my son, but I would beat the living **** out of anyone I found here. And if I had a gun, I would point it and shoot based on their response. I'll give them that fraction of a second.
It's a jungle out there.

__________________
Life and death is a grave matter;
all things pass quickly away.
Each of you must be completely alert;
never neglectful, never indulgent.
SuperSneak is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 02:51   #154
Sikander
King
 
Sikander's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Posts: 1,417
Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You can't use deadly force, unless you are threatened with deadly force yourself. So, while you could shoot someone who carjacked you or broke in, if you have a reasonable suspicion that they will try to kill you, you cannot shoot a guy who is, for example, running away when he sees you have a gun.

HOWEVER, if you shoot someone that has broken into your house just because he is creeping around your house (and you don't say "I got a gun"), then you are guilty of at the very least manslaughter, but depending on what jurisdiction, probably murder
You are a bit fuzzy on the law Imran, specifically the "make my day" laws that are in place in a lot of Western and Southern states. You are allowed to shoot people who have entered your home illegally if you feel that you are in imminent danger. They don't even have to be armed, nor do you have to supply proof that you couldn't get away from them. In some states this also applies to your place of business.

Che: I'm glad to hear that you are more or less OK. Time to refocus your street smarts to pick up on this sort of thing again (it sounds like you were pretty aware in Chicago). You'll probably scare most of the bad guys away due to your increased intensity. If you decide to arm yourself, make sure that you take the time to do it properly, ie give it a lot of thought and be sure to train yourself well enough that you gain some confidence. That is usually enough to be left alone. I never carry a weapon myself, because it's a lot of responsibility, and I live in a fairly mellow city. But I certainly would carry in some places in the U.S.
__________________
He's got the Midas touch.
But he touched it too much!
Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!
Sikander is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 02:54   #155
Mr. President
MacSpanish CiversNationStatesNever Ending StoriesCivilization II Democracy Game: ExodusApolyton Storywriters' GuildACDG Planet University of Technology
Emperor
 
Mr. President's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:04
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: You can be me when I'm gone
Posts: 3,640
Quote:
You espousers of the Queensbury Rules approach have obviously never been physically threatened, or don't have children, or are simply deluded. I'm sorry, but the last thing I'm prepared for if someone strange is in my home, is a speech.
Quite right. The intruder wouldn't fight clean. Why should you?
__________________
Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.
Mr. President is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 02:54   #156
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
Quote:
You are allowed to shoot people who have entered your home illegally if you feel that you are in imminent danger.
I've never said otherwise, but Spencer wasn't aruging that. Spencer said he could shoot the bastard even if he didn't feel he was in imminent danger. Just take pot shots at them.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 02:58   #157
Sikander
King
 
Sikander's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Posts: 1,417
Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I've never said otherwise, but Spencer wasn't aruging that. Spencer said he could shoot the bastard even if he didn't feel he was in imminent danger. Just take pot shots at them.
Well if he kills the guy he's right, as long as he isn't stupid enough to testify that he wasn't scared.
__________________
He's got the Midas touch.
But he touched it too much!
Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!
Sikander is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 03:01   #158
KrazyHorse
Deity
 
KrazyHorse's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 138% of your RDA of Irony
Posts: 18,577
By the way, if somebody had a gun in their hand and broke into my home then I'd probably shoot them without warning too.

If they didn't have a gun they'd get a chance to either freeze or run out the door. I wouldn't particularly care which...

Shooting an unarmed man from cover seems to be a bit beyond what's reasonable for self-defense...
__________________
04-06-04 Killdozer NEVER FORGET
Stadtluft Macht Frei
In Memoriam Adam Smith: a brilliant man, taken too soon
Get Rich or Die Tryin'
KrazyHorse is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 03:01   #159
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
Of course. All ya gotta do is say that you thought you'd be killed. There are always ways around murder when you are the only witness.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 03:01   #160
Ramo
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
Ramo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: of Fear and Oil
Posts: 5,892
Sorry about that, che. I haven't been seriously assaulted myself, so I suppose I can't really relate to what you're feeling. I wouldn't recommend a gun, and I'd recommend going with what Spencer suggested and take another route to work.
__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Ramo is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 03:12   #161
Sikander
King
 
Sikander's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Posts: 1,417
Quote:
Originally posted by Frogger
By the way, if somebody had a gun in their hand and broke into my home then I'd probably shoot them without warning too.

If they didn't have a gun they'd get a chance to either freeze or run out the door. I wouldn't particularly care which...

Shooting an unarmed man from cover seems to be a bit beyond what's reasonable for self-defense...
I'd do the same thing. Just because I could get away with shooting someone down doesn't mean that I want to. The hard thing is working up enough resolve to shoot someone if necessary without going over the edge. I'm good at scaring people away when I have enough time to do so, but working up the courage to take a life isn't so easy when the situation doesn't unfold so rapidly that you are merely reacting.
__________________
He's got the Midas touch.
But he touched it too much!
Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!
Sikander is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 03:21   #162
Sten Sture
Emperor
 
Sten Sture's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: SF, CA don't call it frisco... Striker!!
Posts: 3,617
Quote:
Originally posted by Frogger
Shooting an unarmed man from cover seems to be a bit beyond what's reasonable for self-defense...
Being able to prove, beyond any doubt, that someone who has broken into your dark house in the middle of the night is completely unarmed, and no threat, seems a tad bit unreasonable. How many UN inspectors does that take??


Now who am I kidding. In San Fran, I would probably get sent to San Quentin if I didn't give a robber a hot meal and a full time job. And the closest thing to a gun I carry is a cell phone.
Sten Sture is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 03:59   #163
Dis
ACDG3 SpartansC4DG Vox
Deity
 
Dis's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
drive a big SUV past that neighborhood
__________________
Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
Dis is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 03:59   #164
The Mad Monk
Emperor
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 4,659
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. President
You have a sword, Che?

Seriously, sorry about that. It's never happened to me but I sympathize.
Swords are easy to be had.

Qualtiy swords are little more difficult.
__________________
"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work...After eight years of this Administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started... And an enormous debt to boot!" — Henry Morgenthau, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Treasury secretary, 1941.
The Mad Monk is offline  
Old March 7, 2003, 05:29   #165
TheStinger
Civilization III Democracy Game
King
 
TheStinger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 22:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: International crime fighting playboy
Posts: 1,063
A brtish tourist got shot in the US when asking for directions i presume that is the case talkes about here.

If he had shot the local high scholl football captain instaed of a stupid tourist I bet he wouldn't have got off scot free.

Common law in England( and i guess the US) says you can kill only if you have a reasonable belief that your life or the life of someone else is in danger, of course some juries are more inclined to beleive this than others. The result of a self defence plea often hangs on the character of the accused and the skill of the lawyer. Rich middle class people have more chance of succeding.
__________________
Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
Douglas Adams (Influential author)
TheStinger is offline  
Old March 9, 2003, 07:36   #166
Gibsie
Civilization IV: Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Gibsie's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: all over the proverbial shop
Posts: 5,453
British tourist? I heard it was Japanese- I guess this has entered into Urban Legend now...

I think it would be handy if gun-owners could register their houses with the police, and have a sign put up saying "Trespassers will be shot". This would give trespassers more than adequate warning, and if they get shot breaking into someone's house they have no-one to blame but themselves.

Remember, when defending yourself: aim for the body or the head. You get em there, they're going down.
Gibsie is offline  
Old March 9, 2003, 11:46   #167
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:04
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
I heard it was a Japanese student trying for trick or treat on Halloween.

It seems to be a real event
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
Urban Ranger is offline  
Old March 9, 2003, 14:08   #168
Pekka
Emperor
 
Pekka's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:04
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Xrr ZRRRRRRR!!
Posts: 6,484
Ah, I didn't consider the possibility of the attackers being gang members.. you have it hard in the US guys .

I wouldn't risk it, there are very little ways to win that situation. Just put it in the past and look for the future..
And if you have to shoot attacker, remember to shoot straight and put one in the ground too, so you can say you even gave warning shot. That's if there are no eye witnesses, then they can't tell if you gave it first or not, so it should go you gave it, and that's always a good thing. Of course it's always good thing to give warning for real too, if you have the time.
But don't go on a crusade here, or you need an army to back you up, but I guess they could add Apolyton rules for members 'you have to fight for your fellow member to death' part .
Just let it go..
__________________
In da butt.
"Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
"God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.
Pekka is offline  
Old March 9, 2003, 15:45   #169
Jack the Bodiless
King
 
Jack the Bodiless's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Converted underground reservoir tank.
Posts: 1,345
Glad you're OK, Che.
Quote:
I wanna grab my baseball bat or my sword and go back and **** these guys up.
A cycle-by decapitation would be so much more stylish than a drive-by shooting.
Jack the Bodiless is offline  
Old March 9, 2003, 16:03   #170
Az
Emperor
 
Local Time: 00:04
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
I just imagined a cycle-by decapitation.
__________________
urgh.NSFW
Az is offline  
Old March 9, 2003, 16:44   #171
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:04
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
My sword's not that sharp. It's very pointy though. It's an old dress sabre that my great-great grandfather had from when he was a German noble in the principality of Hesse. It would still do some nasty damage from a chop, though. However, seeing an enraged man scraming toward you with a sword would probably put the fear of God in you and make you think you ****ed with the wrong mutha****er. One of the ways to avoid being messed with is to make would be attackers think you're crazy.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
Old March 9, 2003, 18:34   #172
Alexander's Horse
Civilization II MultiplayerApolytoners Hall of Fame
Deity
 
Alexander's Horse's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:04
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: In a tunnel under the DMZ
Posts: 12,273
There was a psycho kid in my neighbourhood who used to shoot passing children with an air rifle.

So glad I still have both my eyes.
__________________
Any views I may express here are personal and certainly do not in any way reflect the views of my employer.

Look, I just don't anymore, okay?
Alexander's Horse is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 17:04.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team