The criminalization of opinion in Britain. - Page 2

TheStinger · March 7, 2003, 10:45

There is more chance of Greece handing over power to the Turks than of this man being arrested for being in possesion of books. Opinions likewise do not get you arrested unless those opinions incite violence/racial hatred and are published

DinoDoc · March 7, 2003, 10:46

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
Is having books and an opinion enough to get you arrested in Britain?

Is engaging in a hobby enough to get you arrested in Greece?

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:46

Quote:

Originally posted by TheStinger
There is more chance of Greece handing over power to the Turks than of this man being arrested for being in possesion of books.

Yet this is exactly what happened. With the added ingridient: an opinion which doesn't comform with the British gov.

Lancer · March 7, 2003, 10:47

paiktis, a while back I watched on the news an interview with a Palistinian family. The mother had already given one son for the Jihad, he had blown himself and some Isrealis in Israel. She wanted to raise the other son up for the Jihad as well, so he could kill more Israelis. The kid was a yound teen, but serious as a heart attack, he wanted to strap on a bomb and go kill Israelis like his brother.

That's his opinion on the matter.

Now, should Israel take that video from the US news and use it to hunt that family down and kill them first?

TheStinger · March 7, 2003, 10:48

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22

Yet this is exactly what happened.

no it isn't it is what has been reported, there are very servere restrictions on what can be reported following the arrest of someone.

MrBaggins · March 7, 2003, 10:48

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22

Yet both British and Greek sources confirm that they are: books.

Is having books and an opinion that doesn't agree with the established British one enough to get you arrested in Britain?

Yes... possessing books which could be perceived to facilitate criminal acts, by you or by others, IS enough to get you arrested.

Whether it will or not, is a matter of

a) if the government can find out
b) if the government cares enough to bring a case

In this case, they did.

MrBaggins

Jack the Bodiless · March 7, 2003, 10:49

Membership of a terrorist organization would be sufficient (due to a law designed to deal with the IRA).

If he is deemed to be a member of N17, he will go to prison.

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:50

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins

Yes... possessing books which could be perceived to facilitate criminal acts, by you or by others, IS enough to get you arrested.

Whether it will or not, is a matter of

a) if the government can find out
b) if the government cares enough to bring a case

In this case, they did.

MrBaggins

So, in Britain, having books which describe the acts of militant groups is enough to get you arrested and face 10 years in prison.

Is this what you're saying?

TheStinger · March 7, 2003, 10:52

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins

Yes... possessing books which could be perceived to facilitate criminal acts, by you or by others, IS enough to get you arrested.

Whether it will or not, is a matter of

a) if the government can find out
b) if the government cares enough to bring a case

In this case, they did.

MrBaggins

Yes you are right, my post was a little simplistic.

If you have books on how to make bombs and keep expressing your opinion on why terrorism is good you are asking for trouble. Even then you will probably be released.

MrBaggins · March 7, 2003, 10:53

If the books have enough specificity to facilitate or encourage criminal acts, then yes, on their own, they are enough.

The books may, at the very least be supporting 'intent' with regards to other undisclosed pieces of evidence.

MrBaggins

lightblue · March 7, 2003, 10:54

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22

Yet both British and Greek sources confirm that they are: books.

Is having books and an opinion that doesn't agree with the established British one enough to get you arrested in Britain?

It still depends on the kind of books as well. I'd say having something like an Al-Qaeda training manual, without it being granted to you via legit channels, would more than likely imply something dodgy, especially if you have previously expressed sympathy with known terrorist organisations.

I know for a fact that all classified information access has been taken away from students and the like in the build up to the Iraq war (a girl i know can no longer access the files she needs for her thesis on ritual serial killers).

In Germany IIRC "Mein Kampf" is illegal to posess without some kind of clearance. It is also illegal to posess other kinds of Nazi items, so if england does similar things with terrorist organisations, there's at least an European precedent for it.

Ozz · March 7, 2003, 10:55

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
Ozz, how is his arrest legal on the first place?

A judge was presented with enough evidence to sign a
search warrant, The police executed a search and
found enough evidence to charge and arrest him.

This evidence will be tested and revealed in court tuesday.

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:55

So bottom line, and taking away that bomb books unsubtstantiate argument, having books which express opinions which do not please the British government is enough to get you arrested and thrown in prison in Britain?

Jack the Bodiless · March 7, 2003, 10:59

Quote:

So bottom line, and taking away that bomb books unsubtstantiate argument, having books which express opinions which do not please the British government is enough to get you arrested and thrown in prison in Britain?

No.

TheStinger · March 7, 2003, 10:59

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
So bottom line, and taking away that bomb books unsubtstantiate argument, having books which express opinions which do not please the British government is enough to get you arrested and thrown in prison in Britain?

you are intent on using the term books, it is far more likley there is a collection of articles that support a case that this chap supports or facilitates terror.

If he is released and then goes on to organise an attack in Greece what would you say then.

Does Greece allow terrorists to organise in their country.No it doesn't, France, Italy and Spain have all arrested hundreds of terror suspects over the past 18 months and do we here a peep out of you no.

DinoDoc · March 7, 2003, 10:59

Here's a nice blast from the past for Zorba:

Quote:

And if you bring this up in other threads or start a new one... you are toast.

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 10:59

Quote:

Originally posted by lightblue

In Germany IIRC "Mein Kampf" is illegal to posess without some kind of clearance. It is also illegal to posess other kinds of Nazi items, so if england does similar things with terrorist organisations, there's at least an European precedent for it.

Yes I agree with that.
Both are lesser forms of democracy though aren't they? Since they curtail the freedom of expression?
But Germany has at least a reason.

In Greece the media were absolutely free to publish 17N declarations. This is what democracy is all about, freedom of thought and freedom of expression wouldn't you agree?

DinoDoc · March 7, 2003, 11:00

Quote:

Originally posted by TheStinger
Does Greece allow terrorists to organise in their country.

Not anymore.

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 11:02

Quote:

Originally posted by TheStinger

you are intent on using the term books, it is far more likley there is a collection of articles that support a case that this chap supports or facilitates terror.

So books expressing opinions are deemed "dangerous" and must be stopped in the British "democracy"?

MrBaggins · March 7, 2003, 11:02

No... thats not bottom line.

Posssessing a book is only grounds for a prosecution IF it can be viewed to facilitate or encourage a criminal act. Its nothing to do with 'an opinion agreeing with the British government'; its about the application of an existing law.

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 11:04

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins
No... thats not bottom line.

Posssessing a book is only grounds for a prosecution IF it can be viewed to facilitate or encourage a criminal act. Its nothing to do with 'an opinion agreeing with the British government'; its about the application of an existing law.

And it is the British government that decides what a book should and should not say, is that what you're saying?

MrBaggins · March 7, 2003, 11:05

BTW... paiktis... stop using the term Democracy when talking about the UK... its not a Democracy, although it has some Democratic behavior....

Its actually a Parliamentary Monarchy

TheStinger · March 7, 2003, 11:05

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22

And it is the British government that decides what a book should and should not say, is that what you're saying?

No its a Jury.

Ozz · March 7, 2003, 11:06

Wait til Tuesday, then we'll know, til then we're just
guessing.

Better to persume BOTH parties innocent until Wednesday.

I would guess IF GUILTY he was using his "Terrorism
for Dummies" book to tell other dummies how to make
bombs and maybe recuiting einsteins like that shoe
bomber to use them.

Edit: spelling

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 11:06

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins
BTW... paiktis... stop using the term Democracy when talking about the UK... its not a Democracy, although it has some Democratic behavior....

Its actually a Parliamentary Monarchy

So in your parliementary monarchy a book is enough evidence to arrest a person and throw him in jail IF the book's opinions do not comform with what the British government deems "appropriate"?

MrBaggins · March 7, 2003, 11:07

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22

And it is the British government that decides what a book should and should not say, is that what you're saying?

Nope... British law, not the British government decide what books are viewed as illegal...

The legality of SPECIFIC books is determined by a judicial process, interpretting said laws.

Ozz · March 7, 2003, 11:09

Child Porn is a book that will get you arrested.
(and rightfully so)

MrBaggins · March 7, 2003, 11:11

and bringing a prima facia case has less strict standards than bringing an actual conviction.

You don't need absolute proof that a crime has been commited to arrest someone, and put them on trial... merely a reasonable perception that they could be in violation of a law, given a broad interpretation. Its up to the court to decide whether an actual crime has taken place.

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 11:11

The laws then.

Do these laws allow the British government to arrest a person based on wether his books' opinions please or do not please the "laws" of your parliamentary monarchy?

Your "laws" have the power to determine what one can and cannot read and if he does he is to be arrested and face the propability of 10 years in jail?

Bereta_Eder · March 7, 2003, 11:13

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBaggins
You don't need absolute proof that a crime has been commited to arrest someone, and put them on trial... merely a reasonable perception that they could be in violation of a law, given a broad interpretation. Its up to the court to decide whether an actual crime has taken place.

Another interesting matter then: In Britain you can be arrested for not having done anything? And that is perfectly ok?
Don't you think it leaves your country wide open for arbitrary prosecussions of opinions? (which are a democratic right in most european countries).