RED FRONT 1.4 Demogame? - Page 2

Pap1723 · March 10, 2003, 12:41

I just did an exhaustive (sp?) search through the forums, and i can find no map from Captain Nemo. I saw him talking about it many times, but I found no map. But at the same time there is good news. He said the map was made by Harlan, who I am pretty sure is still active on these boards with Civ 3. So we might possibly be able to find out from him...

Pap

Paul Hanson · March 10, 2003, 12:54

Count me in for this too, providing there's space left for me.

H Tower · March 10, 2003, 13:03

FMK and I were talking last night, I believe he wants to start with 5 german fronts, a finnish front, a marshal, a science minister, tax advisor, a labor brigade minister, an unknown number of regional governors in charge of city production, etc, etc...

Of course new fronts can be commissioned later on by the Marshal. I was just joking around last night, but he liked the idea having generals at teh front being "recalled for consultations at the Kremlin" in case they do a bad job, and shifting the brilliant generals to areas of danger being overrun.

And if for some reason we end up with so many people that there is not a position for everyone, they can be part of the "general staff" back in moscow, helping the front comanders plan their strategy and ready to take over whenever a general gets shot from behind by a "german: sniper

curtsibling · March 10, 2003, 14:34

This is how CIV should be, team cooperation!
It's going to be a lot of fun!

our_man · March 10, 2003, 16:16

I just bumped the thread (New website, LotR, etc... by Harlan) with the discussion of the new map for Red Front for anyone who's interested...

greeny · March 10, 2003, 17:30

Should we play this as a traditional (democratic) demogame or realy get into character and play it as a Stalinistic dictatorship? Simulating power stuggles within the politburo and the stavka with the constant risk of being sent to the gulag if you pissed the marshal off. With the only way of removing him being persuading him to step down, or plotting a cu-de-ta!

Not sure if it would realy work (or wheather it would be any fun), just tossing some ideas around. It might be fun to try and replicate the actual power structure at the time.

H Tower · March 10, 2003, 17:39

well, all the styles of democracy games that i've seen, (and i've seen just about all of them) wouldn't work too well with this scenario.

greeny: read my post where i list all the people signed up right now, i was talking a little bit about the stalinist style government we could have, and I think it's a good idea too

Shaka Naldur · March 10, 2003, 17:59

it would be different
I´ve also played the 1rst democracy game here
he won´t need a foreign minister but the defense minister will have to be divided in a lot of little minister
and instead of playing 20 turns and ask the people we´ll have to play one turn and post screenshots and that

klesh · March 10, 2003, 18:33

Hi everyone. Its cool to see that people are so keen to this idea. I have this ongoing developing idea of what this is going to be like organization-wise. I think it will give people the freedom to control more than just one city, but still require the group effort to acomplish anything on a larger scale.

I have been thinking of some of the house rules we might be able to decide on now, which would be pretty much aplicable throughoput the game. Are there any more you can think of?

Red Front 1.4 Demo Game Rules: (incomplete)

No disbanding Red Army units en masse during opening months. (as the events need them to be killed to fuel Wehrmacht expansion)
No Airlifting UK convoys to anywhere on the continent.
No building cities over, or moving of fortification units.
No 'airfileds as railroads' techniques.
.... anymore to be added?

These pretty much allow for the game to be played as it was intended, removing any civ-related loopholes.

With regards to the 'Front' (Soviet name for an Armygroup-ish sized force) Commanders in the game, as HTower mentioned I see 5 Fronts vs the Germans and of course the Karelian Front vs Finland. Thats 6 Generals right there, plus more Armys in rear areas.

As new units become available, they either are massed behind the lines and given to a new Commander as a newly commisioned Army or sent to the Fronts to reinforce where needed. This way, when someone needs to leave the game, or take a vaca we can have new Generals come up the ranks, perhaps even switch around masterful Genrals to areas in dire need of saving etc.

I envision making some various Soviet medals to award for Labour achievements, Military actions, Capaigns etc. Real dorky-fun stuff.

With regards to editing of the scenario prior to play. What do you think? HTower asked me as well, and I first thought we might do some gfx facelifts, perhaps add in some new units or somesuch, but then I realized that that is simply out of the question. Sacreligious to be sure. The game *should* be hard enough of Diety to give us a run for our money, especially with all this coordination going on, it is sure to be less efficient than playing the scen by yourself. I guess we'll see.

Markos, Daniel, what say you? A new forum for this? Subforum perhaps, within CivII Demogame forums? Psst, I even made a little civgroup icon for us.

The Demo Forum cats seem to be less than enthused with this idea, so perhaps we will have to get a forum for ourselves after all. C'mon 20, c'mon 20!

-FMK.

greeny · March 10, 2003, 18:48

Additional Red Front 1.4 Demo Rules (suggestions):

No pilliging of roads (industry destrustion should be allowed "scorched earth")

A more subjective one: useing unrealistic knowlage of events.txt e.g. building defences around the as yet non-esistant pontoon brigde over the don, holding off against attacking units due to knowlage of respawning. Preparing against forthcoming german offensives should be allowed I think.

No massive use of specialists in soon to be captured cities

EZRhino · March 10, 2003, 18:49

Intentionally razing cities bypasses some create unit events too I think.

greeny · March 10, 2003, 18:57

no airlifting of any units other than infantry

Caspian · March 10, 2003, 19:42

Hey, why not go all the way and have players for the German Army groups and the Finns?

curtsibling · March 10, 2003, 19:45

That might unbalance things...

I prefer to fight the faceless, evil Wehrmacht AI!

Paul Hanson · March 10, 2003, 19:58

Are we going to have someone specifically in charge of the UK-Murmansk convoys, or is that going to fall under the jurisdiction of one of the other commanders?

Iron Chancellor · March 10, 2003, 20:01

I think that a Minister for Lend-Lease is in order, unless you wish to place it under the jurisdiction of a Minister for Finance or for Development

greeny · March 10, 2003, 20:08

Wouldnt the murmansk convoys come under duristiction of the head of the Soviet Navy? I think someone shound take charge of the navy and without the convoys there isn't much else to do.

The scenario was intended for play only as the Russians against the German A.I. and is very heavily balanced towards the Germans to make up for the studid A.I. . If a human/s contolled the Germans it would be a walkover without a major resdesign of the events.
So I stay stick with playing just as Soviets.

Iron Chancellor · March 10, 2003, 20:21

I concur with you, the use of the Lend-Lease trucks should be the decision of the Development/Finance Ministry working in cooperation with military needs. Meanwhile, they should be escorted and transported by the Navy, who should probably have control of the Naval troops as well and perhaps should have oversight (or at least give orders to) the Governor(s) of Odessa and Sevastopal.

klesh · March 10, 2003, 21:13

Yes, control of the Lend-Lease trucks should fall to that of the economic/ trade finance minister. He would direct their flow on roads in conjunction with Front Commanders (who may or may not get priority of road use, depending) but nly after having landed at Murmansk. Untill then, they would be yes, under control of the convoys which would fall to the Red Navy Commander. Delivering them to Murmansk would indeed be his most srdous task in-game, as I would think we might use many of our ships (Black Sea Fleet) for scrap to build other things elswhere.

Honestly I dont know if it is worth having an additional player to command for instance the Red Airforce. Any planes in a commander's front would simply be under his jurisdittion to command. The Murmansk Route is a private little War all its own though, I have no problem with having a Naval Branch.

I always thought pillaging the roadways was a viable strategy? Both the Germans and the Soviets have settler units to rebuild roads (though the german ones will never be at the frontlines).

My mother could beat the scenario by dec '41 playing as the Germans. Simply out of the question. Try it, you'll see.

Minefield at Stalingrad. Though a tasty trick, no dice. It thwarts the entirety of the AI attack. Just takes the fun away. Same goes for blocking events at Kursk, or intentionally occupying unit generation spots and so on.

I would like to see that Kursk is well prepared for. The Soviets knew all about it.

Anyway, tired of typing now... more to come...

-FMK.

H Tower · March 10, 2003, 22:01

Positions

Marshal In charge, defines the different fronts of battle and who commands them. Controls where reinforcements go. Selects all members of the government and defines the regions to be commanded by the governors. He is the first and last person to play the game in a turn..

Front Commander In charge of defending his particular area of the front. The immediate superior is the Marshal.

Internal Affairs Officer In Charge of the Science, tax, lux rate. Oversees the regional governors and must give approval for use of the rubles in rush buying by the regional governors. Controls the movement of freight once they land in murmansk and wonder building (assigns a wonder to a region, possibly reccommending a city site). Controls refugees Reports to the Marshal.

Regional Governor In charge of a specified geographic area of cities and controls what is produced, what tiles the workers use and labor brigades within the region. Must gain the agreement of teh Internal Affairs Officer to spend money out of the national treasury. Reports to the Internal Affairs Officer.

Historian/Cartographer/Newspaper Editor Creates a map of the current war, records historical events and is the chief editor of the newspaper.

1 Marshal
5 Front Commanders
1 Internal Affairs Advisor
5 Regional Governors
1 Historian/Cartographer
13 Total

I'm not real sure on how to define the regions, and of course the number of governorscan very. Also I'm wondering about how the labor brigades and refugees fit into the command structure.

Army Fronts from North to South

Murmansk Front Streches from Viipuri to Murmansk and includes convoy duty from the U.K. to Murmansk

Baltic Front Defends Riga, Pskov, Tallinn, Novgorod,Narva, Luga and Leningrad

Daugavpils Front Defends Daugavpils, Vilnius, Velikiye Luki Kholm.

Belerussian Front Defends Brest-Litovsk, Minsk, Bialystok, Vitebsk

Ukranian Front Defends Kiev, Lvoy, Kirovgrad

Black Sea Front Defends Odessa, Kishinev, Nikolaev, Kherson, Perekop, Kerch and Sevestopol

Order of Play
The Marshal begins the game and has the duty of reporting what happens during the AI's turn. moves reinforcements to the front from rear cities

Everyone else plays their part, each time posting the new save to the forum in a designated thread for the next person to play his part.

Once everyone is done, the Marshal ends the turn.

Government Changes
I'd like to see our first Marshal elected, but am unsure whether the position should be up for re-election everyso often or if it would require a coup, (generals voting in secret to overthrow the marshal. both have their own advantages and disadvantages.

Iron Chancellor · March 10, 2003, 22:17

Looks great, you could split the role of the Internal Affairs Advisor into several parts (give one the freight/treasury, another the science).

Perhaps the roles of regional governor and front commander can be merged the create military governors of cities, in charge of several cities, over which would be several regional governors who would then report to the Marshall.

H Tower · March 10, 2003, 22:22

the problem with having the military commanders in charge of cites too is that i envision the governors to have power over 30-40 cities, and the military leaders should really only be worried with the fronts. and in regards to splitting IA is that we already have 13 positions or so, which is an ungodly number of ministers forthe game

klesh · March 10, 2003, 22:40

v1.1?

Positions

Marshal In charge, defines the different fronts of battle and who commands them. Controls where reinforcements and labour brigades go. He is the first and last person to play the game in a turn. Reports enemy movements upon new turns.

Front Commander In charge of defending his particular area of the front. The immediate superior is the Marshal. In charge of production in cities under his control, basically for resupplying his Front immediately, makes total Ruble request to Economic Minister for approval.

Economic Minister In Charge of the Science, tax, lux rate. In charge of assigning specialists to all cities. Controls the Caucauses Oil Fields. Must give approval for use of the rubles in rush buying by the Front Commanders and Armaments Minister. Controls the movement of Lend-Lease Program freight once they land in Murmansk. Reports to the Marshal.

Armaments Minster In charge of the Ural Mountains Industrial Complex of cities and the production of those not directly under control of a Front commander (these western cities like Tula and Orel etc will eventually be occupied by Commanders, negating duty). Controls what is produced. Controls workers and labor brigades within the region for maximum output. Must gain the agreement of the Economic Minister to spend money out of the national treasury. Reports to the Marshal.

Propaganda Minstry Consists of a Minister position (editor) and and newspaper (Pravda). Creates a map of the current war, records historical events and human intrest/ patriotic stories. These are several open positions for those who would like to be various types of journalists, though there is the chief editor of the newspaper, as Minister of Prop. Reports to the Marshal.

STAVKA Council of the Marshal and all Front Commanders for deciding Grand Manouvers. Ability to oust the Marshal with a coup vote. Partcipation from entire non-playing goup here.

Supreme Soviet Council of the Marshal and Economic and Armaments Ministers to organize all non-military affairs and Wonder building, assigns a wonder to a region, reccommending a city site, allocating funds. Declares the tech path for new research. Partcipation from entire non-playing goup here.

1 Marshal
6 Front Commanders
1 Economic Minister
1 Armaments Minister
1 Propaganda Minister
+? Pravda Journalists
+? STAVKA
+? Supreme Soviet
10 + Total

Army Fronts from North to South

Murmansk Front Streches from Viipuri to Murmansk and includes convoy duty from the U.K. to Murmansk

Baltic Front Defends Riga, Pskov, Tallinn, Novgorod,Narva, Luga and Leningrad

Northwest Front Defends Daugavpils, Vilnius, Velikiye Luki Kholm.

Belerussian Front Defends Brest-Litovsk, Minsk, Bialystok, Vitebsk

Ukrainian Front Defends Kiev, Lvoy, Kirovgrad, Kharkov

Black Sea Front Defends Odessa, Kishinev, Nikolaev, Kherson, Perekop, Kerch and Sevestopol

Order of Play
The Marshal begins the game and has the duty of reporting what happens during the AI's turn. moves reinforcements to the front from rear cities

Everyone else plays their part, each time posting the new save to the forum in a designated thread for the next person to play his part.

Once everyone is done, the Marshal ends the turn. Makes German counterattack report. (perhaps to published in the Red Press)

Government Changes
I'd like to see our first Marshal elected, changes would require a coup, (STAVKA votes to overthrow the marshal.) basically for unworthy leadership abilities.

-FMK.

Iron Chancellor · March 10, 2003, 22:45

Newbie question:
Aside from the Marshal, are ministers elected by STAVKA, or appointed by the Marshal, and if the latter, on what basis?

H Tower · March 10, 2003, 22:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Iron Chancellor
Newbie question:
Aside from the Marshal, are ministers elected by STAVKA, or appointed by the Marshal, and if the latter, on what basis?

we'e all new with this, FMK and I both seem to want to have the marshal appoint the military commanders, but the economic and armanents minister could be elected. FMK and I are hashing things out over AIM right now if you want to join in on our talks.

klesh · March 10, 2003, 22:52

With so few coveted slots, its prolly best to have a vote, methinks.

EZRhino · March 10, 2003, 22:58

I suggest another position dedicated to overseeing the economic development of the far east.

Iron Chancellor · March 10, 2003, 23:01

Red Press, like Izvestia? Or more like Pravda?

Ben Kenobi · March 10, 2003, 23:04

Looks like I'm the first 'recruit' of HTower's.

Count me in.

You need 1 more for the list.

BTW, I have 2 months experience as the SMC under a democratic gov't for the Civ2DG, so hopefully, I'll be able to contribute.

*holsters lightsaber*

Carry on Field Marshal.

klesh · March 10, 2003, 23:06

Quote:

Originally posted by EZRhino
I suggest another position dedicated to overseeing the economic development of the far east.

The Armaments ministery goes to the Urals, thats as east as it gets. What else do you mean?

Red Press, more like Pravda prolly, I would imagine.

-FMK.