RED FRONT 1.4 Demogame?

[EZRhino]

What else do you mean?

I meant what the cities are producing, I didnt notice that under the charter for the Armaments minister, but now I see. It looks fine.
Im betting the Economic Minister is gonna have his hands full.

[klesh]

Illustration of the chain of command:

[Case]

Originally posted by DarthVeda
am I the only one that saw the map nemo was going to use with v1.942?

I've actually got a copy of that map. Harlan Thompson made it, and sent it out to interested parties about 18 months ago.*

It's very nice. I think that Harlan's still around, so you can probably send him a PM if you're interested.

*I think. My memory of how I actually got the map is a little hazy. I was working on finishing off Harlan's Vikings 2.0 at the time, so he may have sent it to me as part of a bundle of uncompleted stuff. [I never did get around to finishing Vikings - I simply didn't know enough about the Dark Ages to make a credible scenario]

[Case]

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh
The game *should* be hard enough of Diety to give us a run for our money, especially with all this coordination going on, it is sure to be less efficient than playing the scen by yourself. I guess we'll see.

The problem with playing RF on diety level is that the max units limit gets reached several times in the game with the result that Soviet production vanishes...

IMO playing on Prince would be best. We can either apoint a German sub-commander to 'push' the Germans in the right direction, or fiddle with the stats to give the Germans a bit more of an advantage.

[H Tower]

isn't there a patch that extends the number of units possible?

[Ben Kenobi]

Couldn't we just disband obsolete units?

[curtsibling]

@Is the unit limit based on difficulty level?

Now that is interesting!

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh
Illustration of the chain of command:

Nicely envisioned!
Well done, FMK!

[Pap1723]

What about this crazy idea...?

What if we had a coordinated effort to change Red Front around to be played as both the Germans and the Soviets to allow for a multiplayer game. But instead of the regular PBEM games that we all play, we could have a Demo vs. game. I was poking around the archived forums yesterday and Nemo actaully seemed interested in the idea of someone converting this to be played by both sides, or in multiplayer. What do you guys think?

Pap

[curtsibling]

Even though I like fighting the AI, I think having human foes is possible!

I always thought it would be interesting to play RF from the axis perspective!

[Case]

Originally posted by curtsibling
@Is the unit limit based on difficulty level?

I don't think so - I think that the factor here is that at Diety level more German units survive combat then at easier levels.

[greeny]

Additional rules suggestion: No building refugees in cites east of the Volga! Or mabe only in frontline cities.

Suggestions for possible aditional positions:

Commander of the Red Navy: Contols all naval units, responsible for Murmask convoys and all other naval duties. Also have direct contol of all naval infantry units.
Amphibius landings to be co-ordinated with approprate front commander.

Head of the NKVD: Has direct contol of all NKVD units (and citeis producing NKVD units) and resposible for putting down civil unrest: Decides on methods for quelling riots in cities.

Leader of the Partisans: once the marshes are surrounded, resposible for all partisan operations including any units that get trapped behind enemy lines.

Just suggestions, all these people would slow the game down abit but would allow more people to partisipate.

[greeny]

Playing at Deity level means that the Germans can produce untis more quickly but it doesnt have an effect on combat results does it? Anyway most German units are created via events are they not. I think we should play diety: it is beatble with experiance, we want a challange right?

I didn't get the too many units thing when I last played it (on Diety). The only time I got it was once when I tried retreating all my Red army units at the start rather than leaving them to die.

[Paul Hanson]

The strength of enemy units is increased at higher difficulties. Try playing the X-COM scenario on deity, then give it a go on chieftain and see how much better you do.

[Dr. Nick]

Yes, we need a sprawling bureaucracy that makes the game unplayable in the truest Soviet fashion!

[atomant]

count me in on this one...... probably not as a minister/general, the time factor is a killer

[our_man]

I think greeny's idea of having a seperate NKVD command is brilliant - in the war the NKVD operated with complete impunity, the ability of military commanders to order these units around was extremely limited. NKVD units should only be under the control of either the Chief of the NKVD or the Marshal himself. Having them quell internal 'dissent' would also be fun.

I'm of the opinion that the more positions we have for people, the more disorderly the game will become and the harder it will become to coordinate tactics - which is a good thing (historically accurate)!

We all know what a shambles the Soviet command structure was at the beginning of the war, hopefully as we progress further into the war we will gradually become better at cooperating!

Commander of Red Navy - another interesting idea. Would he have direct control over the cities of Leningrad, Sevastopol etc., or just the units under his jurisdiction? Similarly a separate commander of the Soviet Air Force will add to the confusion and carnage. It also gives us the options of later on in the war of removing these positions and streamlining the administration more efficiently.

Don't know about the partisans; they don't fall under the control of any of the positions FMK suggested, do they?

What about 'political officers' attached to each front - the scourge of every general!

Great idea with the medals FMK! Naturally whoever is Marshal shall have awarded himself every distinction possible at the start of the scenario. Just like dear old Joe.

[Henrik]

So, when are we starting?

[greeny]

I've just posted a link over at Civfanatics to try and drum up some more interest.

[oedipus]

Damned ,i have to ask the site administrator to rename this account to TheDuckOfFlanders.

You can sign me in ,i always wanted to play a scenario demo game.And i know about anything there is to be known about demo games ,since i played about 4 of them including the very first one (as first president ) ,and been on the very base of it's creation.

One particular to start with is youre domestic minister (the man that control's the city's etc).He will have to devide the newly builded troops among the generals.How he will decide what to build and what to give to who will be a first matter of discussion.There is another thing to this ,mainly that in civII you can't queue build order's.That's a problem because at the start of a new turn the game will poppup several city's where construction is complete ,and the person playing at the moment will have to decide.Since you are deviding city's under several leader's this will lead to problem's.Also the person ending the turn will have to decide what tech to research next if one is discovered.Basicly that mean's the one ending the turn will have to know all this information ,so it's best that the people deciding on the queue's post their queue's on the forum so that the one completing the turn's can implement this if a city production poppup apears.

In any case ,this game will progress very slow.i don't know how many turn's this scenario has ,but i can predict that this game might take years if you will play it like this.

TheDuckOfFlanders

btw. sign me in as TheDuckOfFlanders ,not as Oedipus plz.

[Henrik]

The duck should read the initial post again methinks
The turn play procedure is there

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh
Order of Play
The Marshal begins the game and has the duty of reporting what happens during the AI's turn. moves reinforcements to the front from rear cities

Everyone else plays their part, each time posting the new save to the forum in a designated thread for the next person to play his part.

Once everyone is done, the Marshal ends the turn. Makes German counterattack report. (perhaps to published in the Red Press)

[oedipus]

Heh ,sorry ,must have missed a whole page.
But now i read it again and edited my post ,wich you may re-read anyway ,as i stated an other point in it.

Anyway ,you have some experienced demo gamers in this game already.But if anyone has some question's ill be happy to answer them ,if i can anyway.

The Marshal begins the game and has the duty of reporting what happens during the AI's turn. moves reinforcements to the front from rear cities

Hmm ,i wonder if the marshal will be quite fast enough to
write down the about potentialy 50/100 Ai moves every turn.

TheDuckOfFlanders

[Dr. Nick]

I also think that we should seriously consider a very tight schedule for playing turns, to reflect the pressing time in making decisions. It's not like they had weeks and months to decide what was going to happen each day of the war.

[Shaka Naldur]

I like fmk rules, it would be nice to make all the changes you guys are saying but it will take a lot of time
so let's play with fmk rules

[H Tower]

Obiwan18: "Couldn't we just disband obsolete units?"

The units we would end up disbanding trigger events to create more german troops, so i'm going to reccommend against disbanding.

Pap: "What if we had a coordinated effort to change Red Front around to be played as both the Germans and the Soviets to allow for a multiplayer game."

That would be a lot of work, including play testing and we want to play soon, not in a couple months


As for additional positions, I strongly reccommend against it in the begining, people will drop out because it is going slow, be busy with exams or on vacation for a while, etc, etc. It's not a good idea to have every single person with a position, it will slow the game down to less than one turn per week, which is all we can really hope for. With 10 positions plus and less than 25 people wanting to play so far, I think we need to keep the number of initial positions down. And while it might seem like fun to have all of these special positions, it isn't going to work in my opinion.


Duck: "Anyway ,you have some experienced demo gamers in this game already" Not so many as you would think, you, me, Shaka and Obiwan, although obiwan is a bit green still

[The_Newbie]

Can I join?

[Shaka Naldur]

I aggree with H Tower,
we can´t have ten people, the fewer we have the better,
at the begining will be a lot of people but they will start to disapear.
I think that at the democracy game they are having problems to fill the whole cabinet

[klesh]

where would it end? 1 guy for NKVD, one for the Naval troops/ ships, one for the planes, one to move tanks only and one for the infantry? I think we need to keep it as trim as possible as it will flucuate as it goes on. New Fronts will most likely get commisioned, requiring more commanders, and as has been said, people will be commin and going.

As for the level of play/too many units thing. The level of play will not really effect this much at all. Note my screenshot in the 'playing RF' thread of the single kill of a stack of 93 German units in the middle of the Ukraine. Even if the German AI built one unit in every city it owned, it cannot produce 93 units in one turn. The cause of the issue is the ludicrous events which generate hundreds upon hundreds of German units. At the time of the screenshot, I am sure there were several 93+ unit stacks for the germans all about the map. The max in the game is what, 2,500 or so? I believe the 'too many units' problems occurs mostly around the december 41 area, after the huge event help for the German summer blitz. During this first winter, about all you can do is disband Red Army units WAY in the rear (Urals and non- fighting cities) and hope to kill off lots German stacks of 5+ units.

Diety my good man, its the only honourable way to play this!

One particular to start with is youre domestic minister (the man that control's the city's etc).He will have to devide the newly builded troops among the generals.How he will decide what to build and what to give to who will be a first matter of discussion.

The Armaments minister builds the units, he is told by the Marshal or Font commanders what is required, he then makes the decisions on his own where to build what. The Marshal moves units to the front. He know who needs what and when he starts the turn, he 'resupplies' each Front. He leaves any remaining movement points on the reinforcements up to the Front commanders to use.

There is another thing to this ,mainly that in civII you can't queue build order's.That's a problem because at the start of a new turn the game will poppup several city's where construction is complete ,and the person playing at the moment will have to decide.Since you are deviding city's under several leader's this will lead to problem's.

The game only pops up city completion orders if you have it set to do so in the game options choices. The marshal will simply choose not to 'view city' after hearing if, at all, any civII reports. Front commanders have control of builkding in the cities they are holding, whilst all other cities are under the jurisdiction of the Armaments minister.

Also the person ending the turn will have to decide what tech to research next if one is discovered.Basicly that mean's the one ending the turn will have to know all this information ,so it's best that the people deciding on the queue's post their queue's on the forum so that the one completing the turn's can implement this if a city production poppup apears.

New tech path selection is made by the Supreme Soviet. New techs are selected at the start of the turn and will be physically selected by the marshal, as directed by the Supreme Soviet.

At least thats the simplest/ most efficient way I can think of handling it. Thats basically from the set up on the first post , page 1.


Partisans, yes forgot about them. Traditionally they were directed by the Stalin. So I guess by the Marshal then.

I don't think the more positions the more chaos the more fun. Not at all. Take a look at some of the PBEM games going. We havent played an AOW turn in about a month. With every college kid out there having to ask permission 6 times over to fire his cannon at a Fritz, we'd never finnish this game.

I have recieved confirmation that Markos and Daniel are discussingh the merits of granting us our own forum. Let us all hope! There is officially 22 of us raring to go, 'Poly don't fail us now!

1)FMK
2)Henrik
3)curtsibling
4)Shaka Nuldur
5)FiGu
6)fairline
7)Pap1723
8)EZRhino
9)H Tower
10)The Anzac
11)El Awrence
12)Case
13)techumseh ?
14)greeny
15)our_man
16)iron chancellor
17)DarthVeda
18)yop73
18)Paul Hanson
19)obiwan18
20)atomant
21)TheDuckOfFlanders
22) The_Newbie


-FMK.

[Ben Kenobi]

although obiwan is a bit green still

HTower,
At least I'm young and flexible, not old and brittle.

[oedipus]

Hmm ,i must confess ,you plan's make perfectly sense.And i think it's well organized like that.

The folowing is just an idea: (does not relate much to this game ,rather a request to scenario maker's)

I thought about scenario demo game's before.
And i came to the conclusion that ,for reason to avoid red tape ,speciliazed cooperative scenario's may be made that "split's up" a civilization in multiple playable civilization's ,but theoreticly forming one country.Human civ's could be set allied to eachother by default ,and the scenario would be for ex. to face an outside threat ,like a hughe horde of barbarian's.Or a cooperative Conquering.
I thought of scenario's like The first Crusade's ,where a number of crusader's group's could be seperated from eachother and givven theire own maybe unique unit's like leader's ,to each try to establish a country in the Holy land's.And maybe fight it out later against eachother.
Or civil war scenario's.
You could also for ex make city map's of famous siege's ,like a city map of Stalingrad and split up the unit's in different civ's.That way you could have army group's with different leader's with unit's of their own ,gotten by the scenario event's or setup.You could make the airforce a seperate civ to.
This doesn't nessecarely mean it apply's to the current game ,it's mainly a thought about Cooperative scenario's ,that later may be used in demo game's ,but could be very fun in plain mp to.Most scenario's are about war against eachother anyway if they are played in Mp ,but i don't know if i ever seen a scenario ment to be played fully cooperative before.

Anyway ,it's just a idea ,i like to brainstorm.