Spies...who needs them?????

BigDork · March 9, 2003, 20:06

Hi everybody...

badams gave me the idea for this thread, so thanks.

Sorry if this is an idea that has already been brought up. I quickly looked back in the strat forum to about Oct. and didn't see anything about this. Just a quick thread about propoganda. So us newer players really haven't had a discussion about this.

Is it worth researching espionage? I think the last time I actually researched espionage myself was a long, long time ago when I tried to research everything. Now I just kinda get it if it comes up and the deal is good.

So what does everybody use their spies for? My most common use for spies is getting opposing civs to declare war on me. I believe that I read somewhere that this reduces war weariness. Please, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, it'll save me some money. My only real other use is to know just how big the other militaries are.

I think I've stolen two or three techs in my time. I only tried propoganda once and it failed. But I was trying to start a war, it wasn't to actually try to get a city to flip. I've tried to sabotage production a few times but not too many. Usually just important stuff.

As always, any and all help is appreciated. Thanks

BigD

Dominae · March 9, 2003, 20:36

The problem with Espionage is that there are too many better options at the start of the Industrial age. So, no, I do not think it is a good idea to research Espionage yourself. The AI seems to pay a pretty penny for it, but in my games it always ends up researching it before me.

But this is not to say that Espionage is not useful. It is not a good idea to sit on a huge treasury. The obvious option is to rush improvements like Courthouses in your distant towns, but I think you can do better with spy missions. Stealling a tech from the AI is really quite useful, since you're essentially buying it from them for nothing, at the same cost if you choose "Safely". In some games I've exposed enemy spies because they were stealing techs right from under my nose, but this does not happen very often. The same goes with the other mission types. Steal tech is definitely the most useful.

You usually want to use spy missions in those games where you're relatively close to the AI in power, or weaker. AU206 comes to mind as a great opportunity for Espionage. Unfortunately, most games are "decided" by the Industrial age, meaning that you're ahead at this point and are just looking to finish things off. In these frequent cases bypassing Espionage is not a big deal.

Dominae

BigDork · March 9, 2003, 20:49

Dom...

Is there any hints as to if there is an enemy spy stealing techs and such or were you just guessing?

BigD

Dominae · March 9, 2003, 21:00

Guessing. When the Germans obtain 3 techs every 10 turns, I know something is wrong. Plus I've learned that if the AI has a big treasury, it is coded to use some of it one spy missions if these are available. An easy way to avoid this is to make sure they never get rich, which is easier said that done.

Dominae

Konquest02 · March 9, 2003, 21:01

@BigD: Was this thread up because of my AU 204 experience?

I usually research other techs as I have more important things to do in the early industrial times. I try to get it from the AI either by extorsion or trade...

I've used espionnage 1 time and I found it overpriced for what it gave me; I don't use it much anymore. I try to have spies in big civs to get an idea of their military, but that's about it...

--Kon--

BigDork · March 10, 2003, 00:05

Kon...

Yeah, actually it is because of that. Made me start thinking about spies and espionage, so I started this thread. Just trying to pick everyone's brains as much as possible.

BigD

Theseus · March 10, 2003, 01:53

I don;t know jack about it. Never even really try, although I'd love to add it to my bag 'o tricks if someone lays out some guidelines.

The one thing I remember was a screenshot Catt put up from one of the AU games, where the AI civs just went insane with espionage...

Jaybe · March 10, 2003, 02:31

Having a spy in an opposing civ so you see their army strength in the F3 is usually not necessary, but it IS interesting and "entertaining". I prefer to do it that way, though I rarely use the other espionage functions.

player1 · March 10, 2003, 07:50

Getting tech much cheaper then normally is great feature.
(it can happen in industrial and modern era)

And spying enemy cities in times of war too.

badams52 · March 10, 2003, 12:48

I don't usually like to repeat myself, but...Aside from getting spies, I don't see the advantage of espionage and I'm usually racing to war/building type techs with my UP game to get to the end game faster...spaceship, tanks, etc. Espionage is a dead end. If the AI researches it, I might grab it from them when I'm trading techs to syphen-off their gpt.

Dominae · March 10, 2003, 15:12

badams52, since you repeated yourself, I may as well repeat myself too! The games when you're either at UP or at least clearly in the (tech) lead are not the ones where Espionage will be useful. But the ones where there are still a few KIAs giving you some trouble, you can definitely make good use of spy missions.

Dominae

Jaybe · March 10, 2003, 15:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
... But the ones where there are still a few KIAs giving you some trouble, you can definitely make good use of spy missions.

But ... but then I would be too fearful of starting a war by trying (and failing) to plant a spy!!

(I know, underneath it all, if I am not ready I'm sorta spineless

)
What do you think this is, some kind of GAME or somethin'?

Catt · March 10, 2003, 16:19

This is purely anecdotal, from a much too small sample size -- certainly no testing or other experiements fo any kind and not even having a gander at the editor (don;t think there's anything it could tell us anyway):

Does anyone get the sense that attempts at planting a spy in PTW seem to succeed more often than they did under vanilla Civ 3? Just the "plant spy" mission, not any of the actual espionage missions.

Catt

Dominae · March 10, 2003, 16:24

I would not know, I rarely use spies!!

Catt · March 10, 2003, 16:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
I would not know, I rarely use spies!!

Me either

But when I have done so under PTW (generally after the game is "won") it seems to me that I succeed more often than I expect to. Maybe I was just so scarred by the repeated war declarations spy planting would produce under Civ 3 when I (perhaps?) planted spies more often, that my current judgment is out-of-whack.

On the related research point, since I usually bypass Nationalism if the circumstances allow, it should go without saying that I basically never research Espionage. On the other hand, I can't remember the last time I made it through the "Industrial Corridor" to Mass Production without finding at least one AI that had researched Espionage (and then traded it around).

Catt

Jawa Jocky · March 10, 2003, 16:38

AU needs an esponiage course. Then again everyone might skip class.

Yahweh Sabaoth · March 10, 2003, 19:01

Hi everyone. I've got a tip or two, and one question.

The question is this: does distance from your enemy dictate the cost of various espionage actions?

In my games, the cost of most espionage actions is prohibitively expensive. I see a few posts here referring to getting techs cheaply, and effectively, using espionage. In my games, a "safe" operation on this scale generally costs upwards of 3000. By the time I get Espionage (mid-late Industrial era), I might have that kind of money, but I'm saving it for upgrades, either to Infantry or Mech. Inf.

So in other words, I hardly ever use steal technology, steal map, enemy troop position, expose enemy spy, etc. It's just too pricey. In the late game, I would consider it, but if I make it to the late game, I'm at least somewhat ahead in terms of tech.

Here's the tip:

Use propaganda, or rather, don't be afraid to try, when you are at war with a large communist empire. Say the Zulus, in the industrial-modern era, conquer Britain, which borders you. If your culture is sufficiently greater than Zululand, throw around a few hundred to subvert those border cities (which ought to be resisting, unhappy, or tiny at this point). They will join you, at least 75% of the time.

As far as I can tell, for a propaganda mission to succeed, you must at least be adjacent to the city you wish to subvert.

Propaganda has proved useful at times for me in large modern war, though I wouldn't rely on it... it's just an option if I have a large treasury.

But almost all other espionage options are too damn expensive!!!

minke19104 · March 10, 2003, 19:36

Locate Troop position might be useful for locating civ's last roaming galley with settler in Conquest games..

Konquest02 · March 10, 2003, 19:53

I've had a couple of times the AI initiate propaganda in my capital or FP city, which has really little chance of flipping...

Other than that, I usually can buy techs roughly the same amount of gold it would need to steal them... The only disadvantage is that the gold is going to the other civ when buying, but who cares!

--Kon--

Yahweh Sabaoth · March 11, 2003, 10:46

I don't know... I'm just not willing to spend 2453 gold on Sanitation... especially if there's a dim chance I might not even get it, and start a war...

Arrian · March 11, 2003, 12:28

I have stopped researching espionage in my games. The only espionage option I feel is worth it is the F3 info you get from successfully planting a spy.

My Industrial Age tech route goes like this:

Steam Power, Industrialization, Medicine, Electricity, Theory of Gravity, Replaceable Parts, Atomic Theory + Electronics from ToE, Nationalism, Communism, Sanitation*, and then beeline for Motor Transport, Radio, Flight (to preserve Colossus as long as possible, unless I don't have it, of course) and on to the Modern Age (also skipping Adv. Flight & Amphib War).

* - I have also put Sanitation in front of Nationalism... it depends. If I have the happiness wonders and luxuries to support my pop growth easily, I'll do Sanitation earlier. If I don't (and am perhaps preparing to engage in a little expedition to go get some extra luxuries), I will go for police stations first, and then double back for hospitals.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · March 11, 2003, 12:42

I never bother with adv. flight or amphib. war either. However, I also never bother with Police Stations. I thought that Universal Suffrage was supposed to make life easier in this sense. But I do note that I can build Police Stations even after US... how often would you say you build police stations, and how helpful are they?

Arrian · March 11, 2003, 12:48

I always build PS's. They not only lower WW (on top of what Universal Suffrage does), they lower CORRUPTION too, cumulative to a courthouse. It's the corruption reduction I'm after mostly, with WW being a lesser consideration.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · March 11, 2003, 12:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
I always build PS's. They not only lower WW (on top of what Universal Suffrage does), they lower CORRUPTION too, cumulative to a courthouse. It's the corruption reduction I'm after mostly, with WW being a lesser consideration.

-Arrian

Good God. I had no idea. Now I will build them in (almost) every city. Oy vey. And all this time I thought they were just a puny happiness wonder.

Yahweh Sabaoth · March 11, 2003, 12:52

Er, excuse me, I meant "improvement," not "wonder".

...if only there were a global corruption-reduction wonder...

minke19104 · March 11, 2003, 13:14

exactly how much corruptions do they lower??

Is it the same amount as courthouses?

Arrian · March 11, 2003, 15:01

I think it's the same as courthouses. So they're pretty powerful improvements, all in all.

Plus, if you beat the AI to communism (given all the stuff I do first, that doesn't happen all that often) you can sell it to them. They love it, of course, and then if they go to war, they will almost certainly go commie.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · March 11, 2003, 15:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
I think it's the same as courthouses. So they're pretty powerful improvements, all in all.

Plus, if you beat the AI to communism (given all the stuff I do first, that doesn't happen all that often) you can sell it to them. They love it, of course, and then if they go to war, they will almost certainly go commie.

-Arrian

And might I add, it seems much easier to subvert the bastards when they're commie bastards.

(I'm referring to propaganda, during wartime)

badams52 · March 11, 2003, 15:10

My research is similar to Arrian's though I have come to the point where I don't even research communism. Polica stations are nice, but at that point in the game, I'm too powerful for the other AIs and am beelining for spaceship win or MA domination, whichever I'm in the mood for. I'll buy communism from them when they get it.

Using ToE for atomic theory and electonics is a very good strategy cause those techs are high priced. If my ToE is taking too long to build, I'll research sanitation, corporation, etc. in the meantime.

minke19104 · March 11, 2003, 15:15

Except for Americans. They converted to Monarchy in my game instead. Which is pretty damn funny when you think about it.