Spies...who needs them?????

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by minke19104
Except for Americans. They converted to Monarchy in my game instead. Which is pretty damn funny when you think about it.

They seem to do that often, actually... perhaps emulating their real-life affections?

Does anyone here ever sabotage production?

[minke19104]

I've done it once or twice for wonders. Mad expensive though... It can go up to 7000-8000 or higher when they are near completion...

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by minke19104
I've done it once or twice for wonders. Mad expensive though... It can go up to 7000-8000 or higher when they are near completion...

But did it work?

[The Mad Monk]

I just use spies to see what the AI is doing. I don't even use them strategically, much. I'm just really nosey.

[player1]

I don't know... I'm just not willing to spend 2453 gold on Sanitation... especially if there's a dim chance I might not even get it, and start a war...

Actually I could get same price for let's say Computers, while buying it from AI would be 5000gp minimum.

[epics]

I used Espionage in one of my games.
I had RoP with a civ and gathered my units near their cities so when RoP expired I started a war. I wanted to smash the civ within one turn so I had to know how many units do I need to counqer each city. So I used "Investigate City" about 30 times. It worked
Iroquois was kicked out of the planet in a SINGLE turn

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

player1: re: computers...

wow! that cheap? maybe I should give it a shot again...

epics: 30 TIMES?!? Didn't that cost you a pretty penny?

[epics]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

epics: 30 TIMES?!? Didn't that cost you a pretty penny?

I think 2000-2500. But I'm sure not more than 3000

I had 1000 per turn so...

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

And, um, how did you get 1000 per turn? Were you selling all your valuable techs or what?

Oh well, I guess that's a subject for a different thread. Since in most of my games by the espionage era I'm averaging about anywhere from 150-450 gpt, and new techs every 4 turns (except Ato. The. and Electron. of course), I'd hate to blow my hard-earned money on simply investigating. I'd rather use it to buy temples and courthouses in my annexed cities (democracy for me, thanks!)

[theNiceOne]

In my current emperor difficulty game, I have a net income of 600-700 gpt, before having built any stock exchanges or the Wall Street (I've just got the tech), while researching a tech every 4th turn, and selling off a tech only every 10th turn or so. I expect the income to pass 1000gpt when I get stock exchanges around everywhere.

So it is not too difficult to rack up large amounts of gold when you get a good empire up and running. The only problem is that this is when you don't need espionage missions.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Hmm, well, I guess I need to balance the books a little better, but this is a topic for another thread.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Jaybe
Having a spy in an opposing civ so you see their army strength in the F3 is usually not necessary, but it IS interesting and "entertaining". I prefer to do it that way, though I rarely use the other espionage functions.

This is normally the only reason why I get myself a spy. Or to provoke the AI to declare war. But I don't put espionage high on the priority list when deciding the research path.

[Odin]

It seams to me that spiess are useless; It seams like I can never plant a spy in a civ I am with war with, and with the civs i'm at peace with I can only plant a spy successfully about 25% of the time.

[Verto]

Bounty hunters...we don't need their scum.

I mean, er, spies. Yes, don't need them spies.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Of course, I just came to realize recently that in the 2-4 turns after a failed spy mission, any mission you launch against the same target civ is bound to fail.

Well OOPS.

[VJ]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=81355

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Arrian
I have stopped researching espionage in my games. The only espionage option I feel is worth it is the F3 info you get from successfully planting a spy.

My Industrial Age tech route goes like this:

Steam Power, Industrialization, Medicine, Electricity, Theory of Gravity, Replaceable Parts, Atomic Theory + Electronics from ToE, Nationalism, Communism, Sanitation*, and then beeline for Motor Transport, Radio, Flight (to preserve Colossus as long as possible, unless I don't have it, of course) and on to the Modern Age (also skipping Adv. Flight & Amphib War).

* - I have also put Sanitation in front of Nationalism... it depends. If I have the happiness wonders and luxuries to support my pop growth easily, I'll do Sanitation earlier. If I don't (and am perhaps preparing to engage in a little expedition to go get some extra luxuries), I will go for police stations first, and then double back for hospitals.

-Arrian

I agree with you as far as espionage is concened, F3 info is typically the best use of spies, although I do attempt the occasional propoganda mission (and you do not have to be adjacent to the city to be successful, but the city culture has to be low with a small garrison)

As for the tech tree I start off with Steam Power, Industrialization, Electricity, Corporation, Nationalism*, Medicine, TOE, Atomc Theory, Replaceable Parts, Communism*, Espionage*, Steel, Combustion, Flight, Mass Production, Motorized Transportation, Radio*, Sanitation*, Amphibious Assault*, Advanced Flight*

* denotes that these are usually bought off of Allied or friendly AI's before being researched.

I like to research flight before mtorized transport so that I can organize my airforce before hand and focus on buildibng tanks after the discovery of motorized transport.

Yahweh:

Have you played around with the lux slider? Most or your tiles have RR's? Do you have a big enough empire? 400 gpt in the late industrial is Iraqiesque.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber

Yahweh:

Have you played around with the lux slider? Most or your tiles have RR's? Do you have a big enough empire? 400 gpt in the late industrial is Iraqiesque.

Largest empire in the world, every tile railroaded, mostly every city complete with everything money can buy (and pay for).

Maybe that's the problem: most of my cities - in fact, all of them - have 3 defenders, and I'm a democracy. Additionally, I have a fighting force of anywhere from 20 to 50 cavalry.

Taxes set at around 30% or less, depending on what I can get away with. I prefer to lead with tech. Generally a gold reserve of more than 5000.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth


Largest empire in the world, every tile railroaded, mostly every city complete with everything money can buy (and pay for).

Maybe that's the problem: most of my cities - in fact, all of them - have 3 defenders, and I'm a democracy. Additionally, I have a fighting force of anywhere from 20 to 50 cavalry.

Taxes set at around 30% or less, depending on what I can get away with. I prefer to lead with tech. Generally a gold reserve of more than 5000.

Well, 3 defenders is quite excessive in SP (although a good idea in MP) try garrisoning your cities with a single defender (those that are not on the front line) this should free up about 50 units or so for offensive purposes or 50 gpt for your economy. Next, Do you trade much? Try tech brokering if you don't already do so, its not necessary to keep a huge tech lead, parity is what you should seek. Selling luxuries and resources is also a big cash cow. Finally look at your FP placement, experiment with moving your palace also; a good palace move works wonders for moderately corrupt cities. You have a moderately good gold reserve but you should be making more than 400gpt by the time you hav your territory RRed (should be at least 750gpt by this time)

One last point- Do you place your cities on land or on the coast? remember that coastal cities typically bring in far more commerce than landlocked cities (esp after commercial docks are built)

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I think one problem is that my poor neighbors can rarely afford to buy luxuries from me. Sure, I can net about 300 gpt late in the industrial era from the wealthier ones (total). But nearly half the civilizations offer me a piddling sum for my luxuries, even several at once.

As for a tech lead... well, I have found that selling techs brings in a pretty penny. I found that out as the Spanish not too long ago, when I was earning around 600 gpt... with 0% taxation.

But I still prefer less money and NO CHANCE OF SURVIVAL should the enemy attempt to screw with me.

Even with all that money, I still rarely use it for espionage missions, although I agree that knowing troop info is great, a big step up in terms of late-game offensives.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

Maybe that's the problem: most of my cities - in fact, all of them - have 3 defenders, and I'm a democracy. Additionally, I have a fighting force of anywhere from 20 to 50 cavalry.

Interior cities should have few, if any, defenders. With RoPs, you need to protect interior cities from "in range" potential combatants -- without RoP's (and pre-RR) there is no reason to have even one defender in an interior city -- it drains 1 gpt, and serves no purpose (unless you're a Monarchy or Communist State . . . but then you're marching ahead anyway, right, or you don't care about contentedness?).

Pre-RR, a decent mobile force (like your cavs) is a great defense. Post-RR, a fortified infantry per city (and a second unit for a particularly valuable interior city) is generally all that is needed. There is absolutely no reason for the shield and gpt investment in a large defensive force of 3 infantry per city. You're killing your economy with 3 infantry in every city.

Catt

[badams52]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
I like to research flight before mtorized transport so that I can organize my airforce before hand and focus on buildibng tanks after the discovery of motorized transport.

Not to mention the airport improvement which makes transports obsolete.

[badams52]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
I think one problem is that my poor neighbors can rarely afford to buy luxuries from me. Sure, I can net about 300 gpt late in the industrial era from the wealthier ones (total). But nearly half the civilizations offer me a piddling sum for my luxuries, even several at once.

Actually, several at once is not the best way to sell your luxuries, especially if you're trying to sell 4 or 5 luxuries. You want to sell each one individually and to the largest empires (on the other continent is always best since they don't have any of the luxuries on your continent). This will get you the maximum value when you want to renegotiate (and when you do renegotiate each one in turn while keeping the other deals in place).

If you have 5 luxuries to sell, the price gained for the 4th and 5th ones will be twice as much as the first one you sell.

I've gotten 24-26 gpt per luxury for all 5 luxuries I was selling on renegotiation before. That's 125 gpt from one civ! And this is on a regular map...should be better on the huge map.

As for a tech lead... well, I have found that selling techs brings in a pretty penny. I found that out as the Spanish not too long ago, when I was earning around 600 gpt... with 0% taxation.

But I still prefer less money and NO CHANCE OF SURVIVAL should the enemy attempt to screw with me.

Actually, I would love to run a test. Take one game at exactly the same point and one time, do as you prefer, don't sell any techs. The other time, sell your techs and see which one grants you a bigger tech lead. Of course, multiple attempts for each would be a more accurate test.

I wonder which way would grant you a bigger tech lead? The latter would certainly grant you a faster game as you'll be able to research techs faster.

In the AU206 game, I only had to sell 1 or 2 techs every 20 turns to drain the other civs of their excess cash flow that I didn't get from the luxury/resources extortions. I ended up with MAs before they had fighters and tanks.

[BigDork]

I don't think airports make transports totally obsolete. Usually when I'm getting a foothold on another continent later on in a game when most of my territory is mostly developed I'll send over some workers to help with the new territories. Also I'll build settlers on the old continent and send them over allowing the new cities to focus on growth and building improvements. And there are other units that can't be airlifted. But I usually won't keep around more than 2 or 3 transports. More than that is just a waste.

BigD

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by BigDork
I don't think airports make transports totally obsolete. Usually when I'm getting a foothold on another continent later on in a game when most of my territory is mostly developed I'll send over some workers to help with the new territories. Also I'll build settlers on the old continent and send them over allowing the new cities to focus on growth and building improvements. And there are other units that can't be airlifted. But I usually won't keep around more than 2 or 3 transports. More than that is just a waste.

BigD

Unless you don't have a foothold and you are forced to make an Amphibious Assault.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I have gotten 32 gpt for luxuries before, and over 60 gpt for strategic resources... but on a huge map, rarely do other foes a. need my resources enough to buy them, and b. achieve enough prosperity to afford them! I think that's the main problem...

...but this is way off-topic, so I digress.

[badams52]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
I have gotten 32 gpt for luxuries before, and over 60 gpt for strategic resources... but on a huge map, rarely do other foes a. need my resources enough to buy them, and b. achieve enough prosperity to afford them! I think that's the main problem...

or c. their gpt deals are tied to other civs. You just have to keep contacting them each turn. I know it's a pain, esp. with so many other civs, but once in a while, their gpt will be freed up.

@ MB and BD, maybe I should have mentioned that my obsolete transport comment was said with tongue in cheek, or given you a better smiley.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by badams52
or c. their gpt deals are tied to other civs. You just have to keep contacting them each turn. I know it's a pain, esp. with so many other civs, but once in a while, their gpt will be freed up.

Some dedicated programmer ought to come up with "autodiplomacy" add-on to Civ, that does routine deals for you each turn... it could work like the city governor (which, admittedly, I never use... but I would use an autodiplomacy function!)

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by badams52

@ MB and BD, maybe I should have mentioned that my obsolete transport comment was said with tongue in cheek, or given you a better smiley.

Thought I was missing out on some grand strat or somethin'