University attribs in real life

[Major Guz]

I wanted to say something about the real life attributes of the University of Planet. In specific the -2 Probe:
I am a student at the University of Twente in The Netherlands. Last November we had someone deliberately set fire on the heart of the computer center of the university shutting down the entire network and computer facilities for at least a week until they were fully functional : Damage $50 million. (This was a release of a sabotage virus, which destroyed our Network Node).
3 days later, someone from outside of the university showed up in our building (Chemical engineering) with a canister of green explosive chemicals, but that guy was intercepted by the security (probe team action failed).
Now yesterday someone sent a powder letter to a conference hotel where the local shopkeepers had their annual meeting (biologic warfare atrocity). Police and firefighters were immediately here and the whole area was sealed off.
Later on it turned out to be a wild goose chase, but now questions are rising about security at our campus.
But we cannot choose "fundamentalism" as social choice so I think we might have a problem here.
Well, the +2 research speaks for itself. The +1 efficiency, would be the efficient manner in which we use our equipent or something(?) i guess.

In short: From events in real life, I can say that the attributes for the University are adequately chosen.

Just wanted to share this "useful" piece of info with you guys

Maybe some of you have some comments on the other social choices (from real-life perspective that is).

Anyways, have a nice weekend!

[Lazerus]

Damn talk about disruption, is your university killing kittens for fur coats or something?!

[Ivellios]

*makes a mental note: try to avoid Twente as much as possible*

[Mongoose]

UoP does not have +1 EFFICIENCY.

[BustaMike]

Come on Mongoose, you're killin' his analogy . Knowledge social choice does have +1 effic.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Funny. I was thinking the same thing. When my strict but diligent father is at home, we end up with a +1 Industry - brutal serfdom, +1 Growth - rapid population growth (people grow tired, weary, and desperate pretty quickly, anyway), and -2 Economy - paternal stinginess.

The only thing that our family faction is missing is a free Punishment Sphere facility.

[The Vagabond]

IMHO the University faction attributes should realistically be the following:

+3 Research
-1 Economy
-1 Industry
-2 Probe

But instead of one drone per four citizens, there should be one talent per four citizens.

Wealth should be an additional aversion (or instead of Fundy).

Edit: Besides, Network Nodes should not be available for free.

[Fazdaar]

IMO, wealth and research go somewhat hand-in-hand, so I don't think it should be an aversion. Your SE settings are more realistic though.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Fazdaar
IMO, wealth and research go somewhat hand-in-hand, so I don't think it should be an aversion.

When you were running Wealth, didn't Zak tell you that your shameless pursuit of wealth was offensive to the thinkers like himself?

Seriously though, it seems to me that pursuit of pure research, research per se, which is the ideology of the University faction, is somewhat contradictory to Wealth. If you are obsessed with wealth, you'd hardly pursue just pure research. Practical applications of research are more in line with the Morganites than the University.

[Alinestra Covelia]

I agree with the extra drone for Zak. Scientific research in most fields are done on a tightrope between scientific discovery and ethical practices. If somebody like Zakharov focusses on science exclusively to the neglect of ethical standards AND implements an elitist social structure to boot (which is mentioned in the instruction manual) it is all too easy to imagine that the populace is a jointed one, of a privileged cognoscenti and masses of drones/workers.

[Kirov]

But he'd have better tools to calm any riots and to impose mind control.

[Alinestra Covelia]

That remains for the player to implement as he or she sees fit.

I always thought that certain faction leaders would have a higher tolerance for your nerve staplings and other atrocities. Yang and Zak are two that I think would probably still continue commerce with you if you nerve staple citizens (as long as they're not former Uni or Hive citizens).

[Kirov]

That reminds me of another question - is foresting good or bad to the Planet, especially when you destroy fungus that way? Would Deirdre forest as mad or rather leave the specific ecosystem of Chiron unspoiled?

[Mr. President]

In a purist interpretation, I think Deirdre wouldn't plant large-scale forests because they destroy native plant life. She likes Hybrid Forests, though (voiceover).

[Frankychan]

good thread!

My school is
-1 Industry
+1 Research (biological research done here)
-2 Efficiency (what little funding we have is squandered and mismangaged)
-3 Economy (everything on campus costs too damn much! )

I'd prefer a Human Hive approach to our campus but we seem to be using a quasi-Peacekeeper social setting here.

What-evers!

[Jethro83]

Kudos to the starter of this thread.

The high school I used to go to would probably be:

+4 Economy (high fees and yet record number of enrollments every year)
-1 Support (both students and teachers have expensive tastes )
Needs Hab Complex to exceed size 4 (Expensive, state-of-the-art facilities, yet not enough for everyone)

-3 Planet (redirected water course on school site, and most of the ground has been torn up for construction of buildings. Much more clay and dirt than grass and trees)
-5 Police (Unruly students who despise authority of staff are difficult to control)

+2 Probe (Paranoid security measures in computer networks)

No wonder I disagreed with the way things are run on that campus. They are Morganites running a Free Market (apart from the +2 Probe).

[MrWhereItsAt]

Shouldn't all this be in the "You know you've played too much SMAC when... " thread?

[Xian]

Morgan should realistically be -2 for everything - totally unplanned laisez-faire capitalism would destroy any economy in real life and people who study history would know what i mean

As for my high school...

+ 2 Industry - musical talent, technical talent, willing to work students (you should see our plays and talent shows)
+ 1 Growth - astounding ly high enrollment every year
- 1 Economy - cafeteria food costs too much and nobody can afford lunch; teachers way underpaid
+ 1 effic - fantastic improvisers
- 3 Police - students extremely resistant to police state
- 2 Morale - Massive racial tension

Cannot run Democracy or Fundamentalist (Fascist and Liberal at the same time)

Most likely Knowledge, although the football team is obviously running power

Somewhere between Cybernetic, Though Control AND Eudiamonic - you can see examples of all 3

PS the New York Physics Regents Board sucks

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Xian
Morgan should realistically be -2 for everything - totally unplanned laisez-faire capitalism would destroy any economy in real life and people who study history would know what i mean

People who studied history will note that the few periods of laissez-faire capitalism saw the greatest periods of growth and prosperity in human history. If you want to see rampant corruption, hideous waste, and brutal oppression, I can point you toward hundreds of despotisms with state-run economies, both today and in the past.

Capitalism is not perfect by any means, and many industries require attentive regulation to keep them from becoming as bloated and inefficient as government's default state, but no other economic system has been successfully implemented which has better met the needs of its society.

Both Russia and (to a lesser extent) China are even now in economic ruins _because_ of the systematic depredations of 30 years of wasteful planned economies and oppressive corrupt governments.

/flame off

[Alinestra Covelia]

Ideal capitalism is where all competitors serve themselves and their buyers by raising quality and lowering prices. This may be considerably more likely to occur in a completely unbridled economic state than it is in an oppressive state-controlled economy, but I still view a lack of all controls with extreme scepticism. Left unchecked by an elective government, a truly free economy will allow power to devolve naturally to the companies and entities that have the greatest economic clout. These companies will not be subject to the same democractic checks as an elective government, and therefore will have no onus to satisfy the commoner, apart from competition. Such an economy quickly becomes a monopoly and therefore ceases to be free. Under a monopoly, there is no longer any impetus to improve quality/price as competition has been eliminated. So a balance between the two needs to be found, plus I like to roll in the mud.

The Enixine household (such as it was) would probably fall under the following:

Efficiency +2 (recycle everything, including 20th generation used teabags)
Economy -2 (the reason why we recycle everything is because we have no money)
Growth +2 (considerable amount of sexual activity going on in the bedrooms, living rooms, over dining tables, against kitchen sinks, in the bathtubs, in the shower stalls, leaned up against the stairwell with your soles flat on the opposite wall, on the ironing board, and across both layers of the bunk beds. To name but a few.)
Police -1 (We stole a policeman's cap and several traffic roadsigns as well as some supermarket trolleys and a traffic cone so you probably couldn't call us disciplined)
Probe -3 (We were naive and feckless and easily impressionable, as the amount of hours we spent arguing over Chumbawumba cover quotations proves)
Support -5 (We were so anti-war that we protested war even when there wasn't one, taking the stance that protest should be 'proactive, not reactive')

Of course, we were very silly back then. Nowadays obviously we are much more intelligent and well balanced.

[Xian]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron


People who studied history will note that the few periods of laissez-faire capitalism saw the greatest periods of growth and prosperity in human history. If you want to see rampant corruption, hideous waste, and brutal oppression, I can point you toward hundreds of despotisms with state-run economies, both today and in the past.
[/b]
When has there ever been lassaiez faire capitalism? America most certainly has never seen it, with massive state expenditures, corporate welfare, and Homestead access for cheap land. This is just as true in the 1880's as 1980's, and you can look it up in any textbook

Where excactly can you point out communist inefficiency? Certainly not Russia, where the entire country was modernized in a single generation. Certainly not China, where industry has boomed and Famines have been succesfully contained. And certainly not Cuba, where the state run economy has survived brutal terrorism and economic sancion.


Capitalism is not perfect by any means, and many industries require attentive regulation to keep them from becoming as bloated and inefficient as government's default state, but no other economic system has been successfully implemented which has better met the needs of its society.

The needs of society have always been and always will be met by massive state spending and protectionism. Imagine what would have happened if The united states in 1870-1900 had allowed for equal land access? There would be no railroad industry! Imagine what would have happened if Ronald Reagan had not instituted more protectionist measures since ALL PRESIIDENTS COMBINED since Roosevelt. The Japanese and German Industries would have swallowed us alive!
[b]
Both Russia and (to a lesser extent) China are even now in economic ruins _because_ of the systematic depredations of 30 years of wasteful planned economies and oppressive corrupt governments.

/flame off

The opposite is true, where Planned economies have been MOST implemented, literacy rates, childcare, health etc. have been the BEST. As extreme United States terrorism and economic interference and eventually the fall of COmmunism occured THEN AND ONLY THEN did their economies fail. Now thanks to Capitalism Russia is in ruins and becoming the htird world

[gwillybj]

Alinestra Covelia wrote:
The only thing that our family faction is missing is a free Punishment Sphere facility.

Alinestra Covelia! Young Lady, Go Straight To Your Room This Instant And Don't Come Out Until I Say So!

[Alinestra Covelia]

Oh no, not another spanking session!

[Kirov]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia

The Enixine household (such as it was) would probably fall under the following:

Efficiency +2 (recycle everything, including 20th generation used teabags)
Economy -2 (the reason why we recycle everything is because we have no money)
Growth +2 (considerable amount of sexual activity going on in the bedrooms, living rooms, over dining tables, against kitchen sinks, in the bathtubs, in the shower stalls, leaned up against the stairwell with your soles flat on the opposite wall, on the ironing board, and across both layers of the bunk beds. To name but a few.)
Police -1 (We stole a policeman's cap and several traffic roadsigns as well as some supermarket trolleys and a traffic cone so you probably couldn't call us disciplined)
Probe -3 (We were naive and feckless and easily impressionable, as the amount of hours we spent arguing over Chumbawumba cover quotations proves)
Support -5 (We were so anti-war that we protested war even when there wasn't one, taking the stance that protest should be 'proactive, not reactive')

Of course, we were very silly back then. Nowadays obviously we are much more intelligent and well balanced.

Where are those times now? *sigh*

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Xian
The opposite is true, where Planned economies have been MOST implemented, literacy rates, childcare, health etc. have been the BEST. As extreme United States terrorism and economic interference and eventually the fall of COmmunism occured THEN AND ONLY THEN did their economies fail. Now thanks to Capitalism Russia is in ruins and becoming the htird world

If their economy was so sound, why was the United States able to reduce them to such a state of economic and social collapse with absolutely no direct military action? How can a nation with a robust economy and as ample natural resources as the Soviet Union had be unable to feed its own people? For _years_ before its collapse, they were suffering shortages of almost every concievable commodity, and in those conditions, corrupt party officials with criminal connections that are in existence _to this day_ reaped untold wealth profiteering off of the systematic mismanagement of their nation. The remnants of that corrupted system is the burden under which Russia is now foundering, not the horrors of a free market system gone awry.

I will never suggest that the Free Market is the perfect system for the real world, however I _will_ maintain that a state controlled economy is an express ticket to corruption and widespread poverty. In any economic system, there are going to be impoverished people. In a planned economy, however, EVERYONE is impoverished.

Alinestra Covelia: I certainly agree with your opinion on the need for regulatory controls on monopolistic markets. Certain industries, such as power, telecommunications, and perhaps even software are of such importance and offer such stiff barriers to effective competition that the only way to keep them balanced is through goverment regulation. If a free market ecoomy _does_ have a flaw (it does, it has several), its that in our current _political_ system, corporations are able to exert undue influence on government through political contributions. I don't think this is an indictment on capitalism so much as an indictment on political campaign finance.

[Xian]

"For _years_ before its collapse, they were suffering shortages of almost every concievable commodity, and in those conditions, corrupt party officials with criminal connections that are in existence _to this day_ reaped untold wealth profiteering off of the systematic mismanagement of their nation. "

^^ youve just described America under Reagan bush and Clinton to tee

We have Hundreds of thousands starving, are underproducting many VITAL commodities and are in a MASIVE RECESSION according to Unicef! Our government has many more ties to illegal dictators and international terrorist groups, so much so that weve been denounced by the world court! Are you going to say capitalism is "inneficient"?

"If their economy was so sound, why was the United States able to reduce them to such a state of economic and social collapse with absolutely no direct military action? "

You cannot possibly be serious. The United States has been responsible for overe 15 brutal wars in direct confrontation with Russian Imperialism. Vietnam, Nicaragua, Cuba, Cambodia, Korea, Practiaclly ALL of Latin America - the list of violent confontations goes on forever.
Of course the USA was far to cowardly to face the Communists directly, but imagine what would have happened if the Soviet Union Brutally invaded our friends inn Pakistan, Denmark, Mexico, the Phillipines, Southern Africa without ever firing a bullet at us? Would the certain economic collapse that follwed be considered "not directly confrontational"?

"I _will_ maintain that a state controlled economy is an express ticket to corruption and widespread poverty. In any economic system, there are going to be impoverished people. In a planned economy, however, EVERYONE is impoverished."

What you call "curruption" is the type of thing that is not only allowed but ENCOURAGED under lassaiz-faire capitalism - looking out only for one's self. So when a soviet oficial takes bribes to allow say - the russian mafia - to use land for drug harvesting its "curruption" but when the US government cheats normal people selling land only to railroad buisineses at 3$ an acre thats not an "express ticket to curruption."

And of course, you can complain all you want abouo Communist party "despots" - ignoring the fact that most are ELECTED, MASS SUPPORTED, and at least ARE SUPOSED to serve the public initerest ...

your average CEO cant say that

And my challenge still stands : name ONE human development that has risen from a "free-market" - id LOVE too see one

[Lazerus]

Humanity isn't perfect, therefore no economic system will ever be perfect.

Just bored the amount of communist vs capitalist arguements ive heard

[Markus The Mighty]

Yea, it's really senseless to me to discuss two economic models that
a) never were implemented in their ideal conception
b) were therefore "distorted" by "average" human needs and desires and
c) aren't all too different when it comes to their treatment of the environment, ressource depletion, social needs etc.

To get this thread back on topic again, my University (Vienna/Austria) seems to have very much the same stats as the Peacekeepers:

• UN-style bureaucracy (or even worse)
• more people before Habitat Complex is needed (extremely overcrowded in some disciplines)
• cannot select Police State policy (still too many liberals/democratics/free thinkers around...)

Only two things that seem missing are the free talents ( ) and the voting power (Uni-Vie doesn't have very much political say... )

[Uchuu-kun[SM42]]

It was interesting that in the thread I started in alt.games.firaxis.alpha-centauri about a faction I was making, the discussion turned into a "What kind of attribs would a Dubya faction have" discussion. It was cool, but I wish my faction had gotten more attention...

[CPU Vox: "Drone Riots..."]

[Frankychan]

It's the AECCP vs. the CPA!

Bush would implement

+3 Economy
+3 Industry
-5 Planet
+3 Police
-1 Support
*Every base gets 2 extra Drone's.