Early Landing Comparison Game #2

[La Fayette]

I landed in 1698AD.
Details later on.

[La Fayette]

I spent over an hour writing a rather detailed log... then it disappeared somewhere between my computer and Apolyton .
Yet I knew I had to post before 24.00...(finally managed to send a short message at 23.52).

Well, here are the major events:

Monarchy: 1650BC
Republic: 125BC
Democracy: 700AD

Marco: 275BC
Colossus: 200BC
Copernicus: 25BC
Isaac: 500AD
Darwin: 800AD
Apollo: 1610AD

SSC size 8: 160AD
ssc size 12: 240AD
SSC size21: 540AD
Max size: 35

Trade: 825BC
Invention: 600AD
RR: 780AD
Automobile: 1140AD
Computers: 1570AD
Space Flight: 1590AD
Launch: 1650AD
AC: 1698AD

This is more than 5 centuries behind solo or SG2

Yet I hope it makes me #1 among those who played without helper programs

My major frustration in this game is about the techtree: it took me over a millenium to get presented with Republic and Medicine (even with Marco completed in between ).

Later on, my game was a clear demonstration of the snowball effect of bad timing: IIRC solo manages to acquire 1 tech/turn before 1AD, ... I never managed that in this game, even after 1500AD (otherwise than by a mix of freights and research).

I was so upset in the endgame that I decided to plan the worst possible launching, just for the fun of it:
I was about to launch in 1650AD with Fusion Power, but I kept one city in unrest and my government collapsed
Consequence: no Fusion and 48 years flight time

Anyway, I'll play game #3 without helpers (and try to make better use of my brains ).

[La Fayette]

...and the save

[solo]

La Fayette,

Thanks for the message, since you got your summary posted in time to be included in the comparison table, which I hope I have improved upon for this game.

All,

This game I think everyone improved upon what they did in the last, and SG(2) deserves special credit for proving that his opening strategy is equal if not better than my "official" one in the guide, which I am afraid has already become obsolete. SG(2) was first to Space Flight, which I consider being too close for comfort! I enjoyed reading his post game analysis and was happy that he "colonized" the home continent since if he hadn't he would have arriced first on AC.

This game featured a weird wrap-around continent #1 which caught me and many others off guard! I think the many excellent helper locations helped all of us improve our dates. Most helpers and colonies were very good producers.

The table format has been revamped a bit. It was too late to include the key civ statistic, but this will be added onto the next game's table. Note that 5 columns per player are used, so that some names had to be abbreviated to fit. If you do not like the one I have chosen, let me know and I may change it. Also note that BC dates are shown with a minus and that the record holder(s) for each satistic are highlighted in blue. Every player managed first place in at least one category, so congrats to all!

This game we also welcome Zenon to the comparison table.

Now I will try to attach it and see if it fits here:

[Elephant]

After squeaking in GOTM26 and taking a look at GOTM27 I have decided to punt the latter to finish ELCG2 and start on #3. I should post a finish by the end of the week. Sorry I did not make the listing.

[Scouse Gits]

Thanks solo compiling such a clear table of our fortunes.
Two years ago Arii's 1076 (or around that date) was considered a great result with huts! So I guess we are still rolling back Civ's frontiers! Great fun.

--------------------------

SG(2)

[Elephant]

Update from the (done Lumbering) Elephant:

Monarchy: 1900BC
Republic: 325BC (discovered 750BC)
Democracy: 460AD (discovered 360AD)

Marco Polo: 900BC
Shakespeares: 300BC
Colossus: 50BC
Copernicus: 80AD
Newtons: 260AD

SSC sz 8: 175BC
SSC sz 12: 75BC
SSC sz 21: 120AD

Trade: 1150BC
Invention: 320AD (delayed: Celts got in 260!)

Exhaustive To-1AD log follows: good bedtime reading...

[Elephant]

EARLY LANDING COMPARISON GAME #2

Pre-Game Analysis:
One hut (13,63): Hutfinder: seed=30
MapEditor: 4-special groups west, southwest,north, northeast
All are 2-whale/2-fish
so (12,62) is 3-special,
(8,64) is 4-special (west)
(10,68) is 4-special (southwest)
(13,55) is 3-special (north)
(11,51) is 4-special (northwest)
(15,49) is 4-special (northeast)
(4,66) is 3-special (west west)

MOVE PLAN:
_1st settler moves west to check closest 4-special site;
_try to plant early cities close, prefer Whales...

TECH PLAN OPTIONS:
Earliest Monarchy:
=Bro-Cer-Alp-CoL-MON-Wri-Cur-TRA-Lit-Mys-Phi-
=Bro-Cer-Alp-CoL-MON-Cur-TRA-Wri-
=Alp-Cer-Wri-CoL-MON-Bro-Cur-TRA-
Delay Monarchy for Write:
=Bro-Alp-Wri-Cer-CoL-Cur-MON-TRA-Lit-Mys-Phi-

Earliest Republic:
=Bro-Alp-Wri-CoL-Lit-REP-Cer-Cur-Mys-Phi-TRA-
=Alp-Cer-Wri-CoL-Lit-REP-Mys-Phi-Bro-Cur-TRA-
Slightly later Republic:
=Bro-Alp-Wri-Cer-CoL-Lit-REP-Cur-Mys-Phi-TRA-

AND BEGIN:
4000BC- 1S: southwest; 2S: west- Silk!
3950BC- 1s: ZIMBABWE(12,62) 2F,3T(1g2b),1Sh: start Warrior
...2S: south- Wheat!
(expecting Fish/Buffalo? seed is wrong...)
(TOP5: #5/Cyan=Chinese, #7/Pur=Sioux, #1/Whi= Celt)
start Bronze
3900BC- 1g,2b,5t/10b
...2S: south to Road Wheat
3850BC- 2g,4b,5t
...2S: start Road
(TOP5: #3/Blu=German)
3800BC- 3g,6b,5t
...Road done
3750BC- 4g,8b,5t
...2S heading west: 2nd special focus is GS
BRONZE; start CerBur
3700BC- 5g,0b,11t/22b
...Roading GS
3650BC- 6g,2b,11t
...2nd Road done
3600BC- 7g,4b,11t
...2S to 4-sp focus
...PRB 1r 6g
3550BC- 2g,6b,11t
Warrior in ZIMB
...Warrior moves north
...ULUNDI(8,64)+2F,2T(1g1b),2Sh: start Warrior
...(wipe hut(7,63) with worker switch)
...res now 8t@3b
...switch ZIMB to Silk to slow growth till 2nd Warrior
3500BC- 4g,9b,8t
3450BC- 6g,12b,8t
...(13,55) is grass! (3-sp)
(TOP5: #4/Yel=Spanish bumped ZIMB off list)
3400BC- 8g,15b,8t
...(10,54) is Pheasant
CEREMONIAL BURIAL; start Alphabet
3350BC- 10g,0b,11t@3b/33b
2nd Warrior in ZIMB
...ZIMB FBF, fortify 2nd Warrior
...(11,51) is grass too! (4-sp); Fish at (14,52)
3300BC- 13g,3b,11t
1st Warrior in ULUNDI
...ZIMB sz 2, working Silk & Wheat for Settler
...Warrior heads west, reveals (5,63) Silk
3250BC- 16g,6b,11t
...(4,66) is GS (3-Sp)
...(8,50) is Silk, not Pheasant?
...PRB 1r ZIMB 4g
3200BC- 15g,9b,11t
...(7,67) is Whale! switch ULUNDI worker, res now 9t@4b
...(12,48) is Whale!
(SSC looks like ULUNDI: 1xWhale,3xSilk/Wheat)
3150BC- 18g,13b,9t
...land sw of Wheat is separate island (sz 1, 3-sp)
...PRB 2r ZIMB 4g
3100BC- 17g,17b,9t
2nd Warrior in ULUNDI
...Hut(5,69): 25g/25g/Chariot (disband-argh!)
...(3,69) should be hidden special
3050BC- 20g,21b,9t
...ULUNDI FBF, return 2nd Warrior
3000BC- 24g,25b,9t
...ULUNDI sz 2, switch to Silk just wastes extra Tr/Sh
...PRB 1r ULUN 8g
=================================
3000BC STRATEGIC REVIEW
got 2 cities, 2 defenders, 2 explorers; producing 2 settlers
got 2 techs (Bro,Cer); doing Alph
making 4 beakers=9turns; got 25b,need 33b
terrain looks like grass & forest, no hills
ULUNDI is 4xWhale (3 land) site; other is 2-Whale, 2-Fish (2 land)
Resource Seed is wrong...
Already heading for Monarchy, better for no-hills
get 2 more cities,Monarchy, then Trade and MarcoPolo
======================================
2950BC- 20g,29b,9t
Settler ZIMB
2900BC- 23g,32b,11t@3b (forgot about settler drop!)
...Settler heads north
...ZIMB stuck with no production till settler builds
...PRB 2r ULUN 4g
ALPHABET; start CodeLaws
2850BC- 22g,1b,16t@3b/48b
BARB ARCHER EAST OF ZIMBABWE!
2800BC- 25g,4b,16t
BARB ARCHER & LDR HEADING NW
2750BC- 28g,8b,12t@4b
2700BC- 31,12b,12t
Settler in ULUNDI
2650BC- 33g,16b,12t
2ND BARB ARCHER TO NE!
2600BC- 35g,20b,12t
2550BC- 24g,24b,12t
...PRB ZIMB 2r 22g
2500BC- 4g,28b,12t
Phalanx in ZIMB
...BAPEDI(11,51)+2F,3-1T(1g1b),3-1Sh: start Warrior
2450BC- 7g,33b,10t@5b
...ULUNDI FBF
2ND BARB ATTACKS ZIMB, LOSES TO PHALANX-VET!
2400BC- 11g,38b,10t
...ULUNDI sz 2
1ST BARB KILLS WARRIOR FORT IN FOREST, YELLOW
2350BC- 15g,43b,10t
CODE LAWS; start Monarchy
2300BC- 19g,0b,12t@5b/60b
...PRB ZIMB 1r 13g
BARB KILLS 2ND WARRIOR, RED
2250BC- 10g,5b,12t
BARB ADVANCES ON FORT PHALANX IN FOREST
2200BC- 14g,10b,12t
...HLOBANE(13,55)+2F,3T(1g2b),1Sh: start Warrior
BARB LOSES TO PHALANX, LDR RETREATS
2150BC- 19g,17b,9t@7b
2100BC- 24g,24b,9t
...Warrior captures LDR-150g!
...PRB ZIMB 1r 16g
...PRB ULU 1r 4g
...PRB BAP 1r 8g
2050BC- 151g,31b,9t
...(16,56) hidden special (whale?)
...disband Warrior in ZIMB, PRB 2r 8g
...ZIMB FBF
...PRB ULU 2r 13g
2000BC- 136g,38b,8t@7b/55b
...ZIMB sz 2
...BAP FBF, PRB 2r 13g
...PRB HLO 1r 13g
POP>100K
1950BC- 116g,45b,9t@7b/60b
...BAPEDI sz 2
1900BC- 123g,63b,8t@8b
...PRB 1r BAP 13g
MONARCHY; start Currency; REVOLT-MONARCHY T30S70
1850BC- 117g,0b,7t@12b/78b
...reorg workers for more trade
...PRB 2r BAP 13g
===============================
STRATEGIC REVIEW - MONARCHY
got 4 cities, 5 techs, 3 defenders, 4 explorers (2 east, 2 west)
got 2x 4-special sites, 2x 3-special (piggy-backing)
2 hidden specials need work
need road connecting northern cities to ZIMB, plus 2 more cities
doing 6t@13b/78b, got none, going to drop for settlers
still no contact?
prep 4 settlers after Currency to make Caravans at Trade
want MarcoPolo ASAP after Trade!
================================
Settler ULU,ZIMB
1800BC- 108g,9b,9t@9b
(maxing food in ZIMB,HLO till size 2)
...(21,51) is grass (2-sp)
...ULUNDI FBF
...PRB HLO 1r 11g
1750BC- 102g,18b,8t@9b/66b!(keyciv got one?)
...ULU size 2, PRB 1r 13g
...HLO FBF, PRB 2r 16t
...found more huts to west, none on gr/pl
1700BC- 79g,30b,6t@12b/72b(keyciv chg?)
Phalanx in HLO
...HLO size 2, reorg for 5-shield
...(18,50) is whale,not fish!
...PRB ZIMB 1r 13g
...PRB ULU 2r 11g
Settler BAPEDI
1650BC- 58g,38b,9t@8b
...chg BAP worker to Whale
...PRB HLO 1r 11g
BARB LAND NEAR BAPEDI - 2 ARCHER+LDR!
1600BC- 51g,48b,7t@10b/66b
...chg HLO to Phalanx, move own north
...move Settler back into BAP
...(24,50) is Whale!(hmmm...)
...PRB BAP 1r 16g
...PRB ZIMB 2r 13g, switch to Silk (only need 1 food)
BARBS SEPARATE,NEXT TO BAP
1550BC- 26g,60b,6t@12b/72b
...put HLO Phalanx in Pheasant as decoy?
...ISANDL(7,59) +3F,1T(1b),2Sh: start Warrior
...PRB BAP 2r 16g
...ZIMB FBF
1ST BARB DIES, PHALANX VET,YELLOW; 2ND DIES TOO,PH RED->YELLOW!
BARB LDR ON SILK
Settler ULUNDI
1500BC- 14g,70b,8t@10b/72b (COULD HAVE DELAYED SETTLER!)
...chg ULUNDI Temple
...2 Phalanxes chasing Barb Ldr
...PRB HLO 1r 11g
CURRENCY; start Trade!!!
1450BC- 7g,8b,9t@10b/84b
...Barb Ldr captured! 150g
...Hut(95,67): HBR/100g/Horsemen-disband(supported)
...BAP FBF; disband Warrior at eastern tip
...PRB HLO 2r 11g
1400BC- 151g,19b,9t
...BAP sz 2, chg worker; PRB 1r 11g
...RB Temple ULU 72g
...reorg workers to slow production, increase research
1350BC- 74g,31b,7t@12b
1300BC- 80g,43b,7t
...ULUNDI FBF
Chinese start Pyramids
1250BC- 86g,56b,7t@13b
...ULU sz 2; PRB ULU 1r 8g
...INTOMBE(16,58)+3F,2T(1g1b),2Sh: start Phalanx
1200BC- 86g,72b,6t@16b
...PRB ULU 2r 13g
...ISANDL FBF; PRB 1r 11g
TRADE!; start Maps
1150BC- 68g,0b,7t@15b/104b
...ISANDL sz 2
...PRB ZIMB 4r 4g
...PRB BAP 4r 11g
...PRB HLO 4r 4g
...PRB ISA 2r 13g
1100BC- 41g,13b,8t@13b
...PRB INT 1r 8g
Wool HLO, Silver BAP, Silver ZIMB
1050BC- 39g,26b,8t
...Hut(26,50): AT/50g/100g/AT/Horse-disband(NONE!)
...Hut(97,61): Barb/Horse-disband(NONE!)
1000BC- 45g,39b,8t
...PRB ULU 4r 8g
Livy WEALTHIEST: #7-Zulu
975BC- 43g,52b,8t
...PRB INT 2r 8g
950BC- 40g,65b,8t
...PRB BAP 2r 11g
...INT FBF
2 BARB ARCHERS BETWEEN ISANDL & HLOBANE (NO LDR?)
Settler ISANDL, Hides ULUNDI!
925BC- 35g,78b,8t
...ULU FBF, chg to MarcoPolo,4 caravans
...Warrior finds Cordoba(1): Uncoop Span: 4Sp,peace,Neut
...Zulu is Mighty=Orange/Carth
1ST BARB LOSES TO ISANDL PHALANX (YELLOW,VET); 2ND GOES SE
MARCO POLO IN ULUNDI!
900BC- 41g,92b,8t@14b
=====================
Cord Celt: Desp,337g,5cities,9techs,res Constr,peace Carth
Unco Germ: Desp,173g,3cities,7techs,res Rep,WAR Span
Neut Span: Desp,165g,4cities,8techs,res Iron,WAR Germ,pe Zu,Sioux
Unco Chin: Desp,182g,4cities,7techs,res Horse,no contact
Neu Carth: Desp,224g,3cities,7techs,res PolyTh,peace Celt
Icy Sioux: Desp,226g,4cities,8techs,res WarCode,peace Span
=======================================
Cord Celt have Bro,Cer,Cur,HOR,MAS,MYS,POT,WAR,WHE; res CST
Unco Germ have Alp,Cer,CoL,LIT,MAP,MAS,WRI; res REP
Neut Span have Alp,Bro,Cer,Cur,MAP,MYS,POT,WAR; res IRO
Unco Chin have Alp,Cer,MAP,MAS,MYS,POT,WRI; res HOR
Neu Carth have Alp,Bro,Cer,HOR,IRO,WAR,WHE; res PT
Icy Sioux have Alp,Bro,Cer,Cur,HOR,MAP,MYS,PT; res WAR
=======================================
Alp- all but Celt
Bro- all but Germ,Chin
Cer- all
CoL- only Zulu,Germ
Cur- Celt,Span,Sioux
HOR- Celt,Carth,Sioux
IRO- only Carth
LIT- only Germ
MAP- Germ,Span,Chin,Sioux
MAS- Celt,Germ,Chin
Mon- only Zulu
MYS- Celt,Span,Chin,Sioux
PT- only Sioux
POT- Celt,Span,Chin
Tra- only Zulu
WAR- Celt,Span,Carth
WHE- Celt,Carth
WRI- Germ,Chin
=========================
I want MAP,MYS,WRI,LIT and maps!
Start with Cordial Celts; want MYS,WHE; offer Alp,CoL,Tra,Mon
=Cord Celt: 6Sp, dem Alph for peace, Enthus; exch Tra for MYST,
=offer CoL, no want Mon for WHEEL,Worshipful,no more time!
Next try Span; want MAP,POT; offer CoL,Tra,Whe,Mon
=Neut Span: 4Sp, exch Whe for MAPS, CoL for POTTERY to Recep,
=gift Tra to Cord, share maps
(Span have Archers out,no settlers, found Germans!)
Try Uncoop Chin next: want WRI, offer Bro,CoL,Cur,Tra,Mon
=Uncoop Chin: 1Sp, exch Tra for WRITE,Neut,peace; gift Bro,
=Cur,CoL to Cord, share maps; ally? gift Mon-YES,Worsh;gift?100g!
(Chin south of Germans,2 settlers,irrigating Plains)
OK,now tough one- Germans: want LIT, offer Bro,Cur,Mys,Whe,Pot,Tra
=Uncoop Germ: 0Sp, exch Tra for LITERACY, peace, Neut; gift Pot,
=Bro to Cord, share maps; gift Myst,Cur to Worship,tribute?100g!
(Germans have some roads,irrig,1 settler)
Who's left? try Carth,just want maps,tribute?
=Neut Carth: 2Sp,skip exch,dem Map for peace,Neut; gift Myst to
=Enthus,share maps; gift Pot to Worsh,tribute?ignore,no more time
(Ah- Carth is off eastern tip! lots of roads,2 settlers)
Finally, Sioux: just maps,tribute?
=Icy Sioux: 3Sp,dem Lit for peace,Neut;gift Whe,Tra to Enthus,
=share maps;gift Pot to Worsh,tribute?ignore,no more time
(Sioux north of Span, spread out,1 ship,1 settler,roads)
SO: got MYS,WHE,MAP,POT,WRI,LIT; 200g, all maps but Celt
=======================================
STRATEGIC REVIEW
got 6 cities, 2x 4-specials, 2x 3-specials (piggy-back)
got 3 Settlers,1-2 building; 6 Phalanx (3 vets!) & 4 Warrior
location SE extension of Cont#1, could RD/RR to Spanish for SSC?
ULU supplies Hides & Copper, demanded by Cordoba,Seville,Madrid
ship route to Carth easy, they want Dye,Wine,Silk,Hides
Celts up there somewhere too
Sioux,Chinese,Germans further away
should get Philosophy option next,freebie Rep (or Med?)
Celt res Constr, could tech-bomb Sioux to help
time to build some caravans & ships!
time to start building SSC too...
====================================
...res now 224b
BARB HEADING EAST TOWARD INTOMBE
start Philosophy
875BC- 225g,106b,16t@14b,Mi=Carth
...Celt res Cst,Germ Rep,Span Iro,Chin Hor,Chin PT,Sioux War
...Cord Carth: 1Sp,dem Mon,gift Lit to Enthus,nomore
...Cord Span: 3Sp,dem Lit,gift Mon to Worsh,trib?ignore
...Cord Sioux: 4Sp,dem Mon,gift Wri to Worsh,nomore
...res now 15t/210b
...RB Lib 150g
...more PRBing...
...ISANDL FBF
(shift HLOs vet Phalanx to INT?)
Carth gov othro
Settler BAPEDI
BARB NEXT TO INTOMBE
850BC- 45g,123b,13t@17b,Mi
...ISANDL sz 2
...Enthus Carth: 2Sp,dem Cur,gift Tra,Wri,to Worsh,ally?no;trib?no
...Enthus Sioux: 4Sp,have all but CoL,nomore
...Enthus Germ: 0Sp,tribute?no,Cordial
(dont want to dump on Celts cause they are doing Constr)
...slip HLO's vet Phalanx into INT,fortify; Elvis in HLO
...BAP FBF
Chin gov othro
Carth Monarchy!
BARB LOSES TO INTOMBE(yellow,no vet)
Silk ZIMB
POP>200K
825BC- 38g,142b,11t@19b,Mi
...return HLO Phalanx, fire Elvis
...Worsh Chin: 1Sp, no exch,gift?dont press luck,goodbye
Span gov othro
Chin gov Monarchy
Celts get Iron from Carth for Mason
Dye INTOMBE
800BC- 24g,160b,11t@18b/196b
...first ship is loaded to go!
...Enthus Sioux: 3Sp,dem CoL to Worsh,tribute?ignore,nomore
Span gov Monarchy
775BC- 15g,179b,11t,Mi
...Enthus Chin: 2Sp,no exch,gift?patience thin,Cord,nomore
...Cord Germ: 0Sp,no exch,gift Whe to Enthus,nomore
German-Sioux war!
Celt gov othro
PHILOSOPHY; freebie Republic; start Medicine
750BC- 12g,0b,14t@19b/256b
...(16,56) is Pheasant,not Silk!?!
...Enthus Celt: 6Sp,dem Maps(duh!),gift Rep,exch maps,nomore
...Enthus Germ: 0Sp,gift Rep (pres res) to Worship,nomore
...Enthus Span: 2Sp,no war Germ,Cord,dem Rep,Enthus,sh maps,nomore
...Cord Chin: 3Sp,no exch,gift Rep to Enthus,goodbye
...Enthus Carth: 1Sp,dem Rep to Worsh,share maps,nomore
...Enthus Sioux: 4Sp,no exch,no war,dem Rep to Enthus,sh map,nomore
(I NEED SOME CASH!)
Celts start HangGdns, gov Monarchy
725BC- 8g,20b,13t@20b,Strong=Chinese
...Enthus Chin: 3Sp,gift Lit,nomore
...Enthus Germ: 0Sp,gift Philos(pres res),nomore
Dye ISANDL,Hides ULUNDI
700BC- 12g,40b,13t,Stro
...(28,48) is Whales!
...Worsh Chin: 1Sp,gift?50g,goodbye
...Enthus Germ: 0Sp,gift Mon(pres res),tribute?50g,nomore
Sioux gov othro
Celts get Math! (hut?)
675BC- 94g,60b,13t,Stro
...Germ res Bank, Carth Constr; rest war stuff
Carth gov othro (Rep?)
Sioux Monarchy!
Hides BAPEDI
650BC- 48g,80b,13t,Stro
...(30,52) is Fish!
...wait on Carth deliveries till Rep
CARTH REPUBLIC!
Sioux start GreatLib
Settler INTOMBE,Dye HLOBANE,Dye ZIMBABWE
625BC- 36g,100b,13t,Stro
...Carth disorder!
...INTOMBE FBF
Germans offer 50g to war Spanish:no
600BC- 24g,121b,13t,Mod=Spanish!
...Enthus Carth: 5Sp,dem Philos to Worship,share maps,nomore
...WHY IS CARTH STILL IN DISORDER?!
German gov othro (finally!)
Celts dev Constr!(finally!)
575BC- 18g,142b,13t,Mod
...Enthus Span: 2Sp,bluster,dem Philos,gift Write to Worsh,nomore
...Enthus Celt: 6Sp,exch Philos for CONSTR,sh maps,nomore
...ZIMB Silk to Carth(5/Dye/Wine/Silk): 207g,+1
Carth now (Silk)/Wine/Salt!
...RB Temple BAP 50g,ZIMB 60g,HLO 60g
German gov Republic!
Celt gov othro
Celts get Med (hut?)!@#$%&*!!!
MEDICINE; start Engineering
Salt ISANDL,Dye ULUNDI
550BC- 58g,20b,16t@21b/324b,Mod
...INTOMBE Dye to Utica(3/Dye/Hide/Silk): 104g/b,+1
...RB Temple INT 50g
Utica now Silk/Hides/Silv
Chin dev HBR(finally!)
Celt Republic!
525BC- 114g,145b,15t@21b/306b,Stro=Chinese
...ULUNDI Hides to Utica(3/Silk/Hide/Silv): 206g/b,+3
Utica still Silk/Hide/Silver!
...RB Temple ISANDL 70g
...RB Mktplace ULUNDI 146g
Sioux get Philos fr Spanish for PolyTh
BARB SHIP NEXT TO ULUNDI! no unload
ENGINEERING; start Sanitation
500BC- 74g,28b,13t@28b/342b,Mod
...move ISA Phalanx into ULUNDI,block shore with Settler,ZIMB Ph
...PRB Chariot in ZIMB
...Enthus Span: 2Sp,dem Constr,gift Med to Worsh,nomore
...Enthus Chin: 1Sp,gift Constr to Worship,gift?patience thin
Chinese near Pyramids
BARB SHIP DOESNT MOVE
475BC- 7g,56b,12t@28b/323b,Mod
...Chariot in ZIMB,pull Settlers,Phalanx back
...Enthus Span: 2Sp, gift Eng to Worship,tribute?100g!
Pyramids in Beijing; Chin chg to GreatLib
2 BARB ARCHERS LAND,NO LDR!
450BC- 59g,84b,12t,Weak!=SELF?
...Chariot kills both Barbs,no vet
...Enthus Chin: 3Sp,no exch,req gift: 100g!
Germans dev Banking!
425BC- 70g,112b,13t,Inad=German!
...Enthus Germ: 0Sp,gift Cst,Eng,Med to Worship,tribute?100g!
...res now 323b
...BAP Hides to Utica(4/Silk/Hide/Silv): 144g/b,+2
Utica now Silk/Silv/Hide
...ISA Dye to Malaca(2/Dye/Hide/Wool): 104g/b,+1
Malaca now Hide/Wool/Silk- OH FOR SOME SILK PRODUCERS!
...Enthus Celt: 6Sp,share maps,nomore
(take last Dye to Caralis)
Celts awakened two Barb swarms in far north,used NP to get to #1
SANITATION; start Seafaring (#20!)
Beads HLO,Hides BAP
400BC- 348g,30b,18t@30b,Weak=SELF again
...HLO FBF
Carth dev PolyTh
Celts get Eng
Wool INTOMBE,Hides ULUNDI
375BC- 327g,61b,17t@31b,Inad=Germans again
...HLO size 3
...switch HLO,INT to more Triremes
...Enthus Celt: 6Sp, exch San for MATH,nomore
...Enthus Germ: 0Sp,gift San to Worship,nomore
(CIV2PLAN: get Bank too...)
...Celts res Astron,Span Iron,Chin Sea,Carth Bank,Sioux War
Hides ISANDL,Salt ZIMB
350BC- 319g,92b,18t@31b/546b!,Inad
...Enthus Germ: 0Sp, exch Math for BANK,nomore
...ZIMB Dye to Caralis(3/Dye/Cop/Bead): 104g/b,+1
Caralis now Silk/Cop/Bead
...ZIMB FBF
...ULU FBF,hire Elvis for Revolt(no surplus!)
REVOLT
Celts near HangGdns
REPUBLIC- T20S80!
POP>300K
325BC- 423g,196b,12t@50b,Mod=Spanish again
...ULUNDI size 4,chg to Shakes,6 caravans
Germ get Horse fr Chin for San
Carth start GreatLib
HangingGdns in Kells
Civil Disorder in HLOBANE (expected)
SHAKESPEARES IN ULUNDI!
300BC- 365g,239b,14t@43b,Stro=Chin again
...MPONDO(21,51)+3F,6-1T(1g4b),3Sh: start Phalanx,rehome HLO War
...chg T0S70L30 for WLTCD
Enthus Sioux: 2Sp,dem Math to Worship,ally?war Ger?no,ALLY!
Sioux dev WarCode(finally)
Enthus Celt: dem Write to Worship,ally?no,share maps,nomore
WLTCD in ULUNDI!
275BC- 279g,289b,13t@50b,Mod
...RB Aquaduct ULU 148g
Celts start KingRich
250BC- 68g,331b,11t@52b/572b,Mod=Span
...ULU sz 5
...Enthus Span: 2Sp,dem San,gift Bank to Worship,goodbye
...Enthus Carth: 5Sp, gift Math,Eng,San,Bank(pres res),sh maps
...Enthus Sioux: 4Sp,gift Cst,San,Bank(pres res),sh maps
...Celt res Astron,Germ,Chin Sea,Span Iron
Chin gov othro
POP>400K
225BC- 5g,387b,11t@56b,Mod
...ULU sz 6
Chin gov Republic
POP>500K
200BC- 4g,437b,12t@50b,Mod
...ULU sz 7
...chg T10S50L40
...ULU Dye to Seville(4/Dye/Cop/Spi): 132g/b,+3
Seville now Spi/Gem/Wine
SEAFAR; start University
Beads HLO,Hides BAP
175BC- 88g,52b,11t@55b,Mod
...ULU sz 8
...Trireme in INTOMBE, heading toward ULUNDI
...Salt fr ISA to Carth(6/Dye/Wine/(Silk)):96g/b,+2
...Enthus Germ: 0Sp,gift Sea(pres res),sh maps,nomore
...Cord Chin: 2Sp,gift Sea(pres res),sh maps,goodbye
...Enthus Span: 1Sp,dem Sea,sh maps,goodbye
...res now 598b
...RB Harbor 66g
...BAP FBF
Hides ISA, ZIMB
POP>700K
150BC- 47g,207b,11t,Stro=Chin!
...ULU sz 9, BAP sz 3
...Enthus Chin: 2Sp,gift Bank,goodbye
...chg T50S10L40 to help PRBing
Celts dev Astron!
Celts get Bank fr Carth for Astron
POP>800K
125BC- 55g,217b,56t,Mighty=Carth!
...ULU sz 10
...Cord Carth: 4Sp,dem Sea,exch Med for ASTRON,nomore
...MPO FBF
POP>900K
100BC- 54g,228b,53t,Mi
...ULU sz 11, MPO sz 2
...Enthus Carth: 4Sp,dem CoL,sh maps,nomore
...HLO Dye to Kells(7/Dye/Cop/Bead): 384g/b,
Kells now Silk/Silv/Bead
...RB Sewers 198g
Sioux gov othro
Celts near KingRich
UNIVERSITY; start TheoGravity
Hides ISA
POP>1M!
75BC- 133g,10b,55t,Mi
...ULU sz 12
...start COLOSSUS, 4 caravans
...ack - Caralis doesnt want Beads anymore!@#$!
Sioux gov Republic
KingRich in Cardiff!!!
COLOSSUS IN ULUNDI!
50BC- 118g,24b,43t,Mi
...ULU sz 13
...Enthus Carth: 3Sp,dem Univ to Worsh,ally?no,sh maps,nomore
...chg T60S10L30
...INTOMBE FBF
Beads MPO
25BC- 102g,39b,40t@15b,Mi
...ULU sz 14, INT sz 3
...larger island to southeast is #1 too!!!
Copper ULU
1AD- 89g,54b,40t,Mi
...ULU sz 15

[Elephant]

Some self-criticism:

I panicked when I saw all the trees and abandoned the thought of Early Republic. I relied too much on the HutFinder resource seed at the start. I started lean, but got nervous after sweating the first Barb attack and built more Phalanx than I probably needed. The Chariot was probably not necessary either. I was not ready with pre-built settlers when I got Trade (mostly due to another Barb attack), so it took 5 turns to build Marco Polo. I probably should not have taken Pottery; Salt bedeviled my commodity lists later on, and only one size 2 city was interested in it. I could have started WLTCD earlier for the SSC; partly I was trying to get a bit more gold in the bank for rushbuying. Once I started, though, I added a pile of white stuff pretty smoothly. The one sweaty moment was when the Celts discovered Astronomy just as I was about to build Colossus, with no other caravans nearby and desperately needed Sewers. Luckily they stuck with KingRichards; I built Colossus, traded for the tech, and rushed several half-way to Carthage caravans back to build it in 80AD.

Compared to Solo, I've been pretty close in techs (beside his Early Republic...) because I'm leveraging my AI tech slaves, and my SSC topped out at 21 in 120AD, beating his 260AD. I don't have the overseas colonies he does, though; in fact I'm still working with only 7 cities, finishing a road link to my 2nd SSC (the 4-special site on the northern peninsula) with settlers that are about to be superceded by Engineers born from another WLTPD round. I hope to move the settlers out on my new Galleons for colonies in Celt-land next. My next goal is to try to beat his 740AD date for Auto...

[solo]

Elephant,

Looks like a good game, and thanks for all of the interesting details. I think this game is among many proving the benefits of building Marco Polo's. You are making the most out of it. I look forward to see how it goes from here.

[Scouse Gits]

Forgot to post the full log for this game! Here goes ...

BC YEARS
4000 - Found Zimbabwe (13,61)
3800 - Ulundi founded (8,64)
3750 - Ceremonial Burial
3450 - Horseback Riding
3050 - Alphabet
3000 - Zim builds settler
2950 - Ulu builds settler
2650 - Bapedi (13,57)
2600 - Hlbane (13,65)
2450 - Code of Laws
2100 - Monarchy
2050 - Revolution to Monarchy
Meet Spanish and swap Bronze Working. Give them Monarchy for Alliance. Rating Supreme.
2000 - After 40 turns it was time to take stock of things. In my haste to put down four cities I had already created something of a sleaze! It seemed a tempting prospect to see how a semi-ICS approach would work on this map.
1950 - Madrid located at 84,52
1800 - Meet Sioux: Peace and swap for Currency
1600 - Isandhlwana founded on the four special site at 11,51
1500 - Intombe founded at 17,57
1450 - Map Making Convincing myself this is working up to a Semi-Sleaze - Map making is swapped with the Spanish for Pottery ...I'll just have to put up with salty caravans.
1350 - 50g Tribute from Sioux
1000 - 100g Tribute from Sioux
0975 - Mysticism
0925 - Meet Germans - Peace, swap Writing and get 100g Tribute
0900 - Trade swapped with Spanish
Mpondo founded as first colony at 24,64
0875 - 150g Tibute from Sioux
0850 - Hanging Gardens in Ulundi; 50g Tribute from Sioux
0800 - Ngome founded at 20,56; Swazi at 27,51
0750 - Literacy; 50g Tributes from Sioux and Germans
0725 - 25g Tribute from Germans
0700 - Colossus in Ulundi; 50g Tribute from Sioux
0675 - Meet Carthaginians - Peace/Maps; Germans donate Seafaring as tribute.
0625 - 25g from Germans
0600 - Philosophy + Medicine; Tugela founded at 17,61
0575 - Umtata founded at 4, 64; 100g gift from Spanish (about time )
0550 - Gift of 100g from Spanish
0525 - Gift of 50g from Spanish. Meet Celts peace.
0500 - Masonry; Give Philosophy to Spanish and receive gift of 100g
0475 - Gift of 100g from Spanish
0450 - Republic; Barb Leader 150g Silver to Ulundi 70g; Maps from Celts
0400 - Umfolozi founded at 0,66
0375 - Salt to Utica 184g
0350 - Banking
0325 - Dye to Carthage 128g; 50g Tribute from Sioux
0300 - Iron Working from Spanish + Gift of 50g.
0275 - Ibabanago founded at 21, 51; 50g Tribute from Germans
0250 - Meet Chinese - Construction Peace/Maps/100g Tribute
0225 - Revolution to Republic Wool to Utica 128g
0200 - Mathematics + Shakespeare's Theatre in Ulundi; 50g Gift from Spanish
Isipezi founded as second colony at 27,67
0175 - Dye to Malaca 414g
0150 - Ulundi size 8; Gift of 50g from Spanish
0125 - University
0075 - The Wheel swapped with Spanish + gift of 50g. Maps from Sioux.
0050 - Beads to Toldeo 76g; Dye to Caralis 72g
0025 - Ulundi size 12;

AD YEARS
0001 - Wool to Malaca 104; Hides/Salt to Utica 112/76; 50g Gift from Spanish
0020 - Dye to Madrid 116
0040 - Engineering, Copernicus' Observatory; Dye to Ulundi 62g
0060 - Monotheism swapped with Celts. Maps Spanish Chinese
0080 - Maps from Cartaginians;
0100 - Dye to Panormus 200g; Beads to Utica 56g
0120 - Sanitation
0140 - Ulundi builds Sewer System; Dye to Utica 84g; Size 13
0160 - Size 14
0180 - Market - Ulundi; Wine to Carthage 190g; Size 15
0200 - Economics; University in Ulundi; Beads to Valencia 396; Silver to Utica 300; Size 16
0220 - Theory of Gravity; Salt to Utica 124; Gold to Toledo 52
0280 - Isaac Newton's College + Bridge Building; Size 17; Copper to Malaca 597; 50g from Spanish
0300 - Chemistry Silk to Utica 384;
0320 - Invention; Zimbabwe builds Michelangelo's Chapel; Coal to Ulundi 92; Gift of 100 from Spanish
0340 - Wool to Carthage 148; Dye to Utica 128; Size 18
0360 - Navigation; Gift of 100g from Spanish
0380 - Physics; Size 18
0400 - Courthouse in Ulundi; Gold to Madrid 310; Beads to Panormus 68;
0420 - Atomic Theory; Size 19
0440 - Magnetism; Dye/Copper to Malaca 404/92; Silk to Utica 198;
0460 - Democracy + Revolution to Democracy; Granary in Ulundi; Wine/Salt to Carthage 254/108;
0480 - Gunpowder; Size 20;
0520 - Explosives; Size 21; Copper to Malaca 108; Gold to Utica 52;
0540 - AmatikuluDarwin at 7,59; Beads to Kells 100; Silver to Utica 200; Size 22;
0560 - Steam Engine; Gems to Malaca 636; Salt to Ulundi 26;
0580 - Metallurgy; Size 23; Gold to Madrid 45; Silk to Carthage 180; Dye to Utica 236
0600 - Electricity; 50 gift from Spanish; Coal to Ulundi 82;
0620 - Railroad; Size 24; 75 gift from Spanish;
0640 - Darwin's Voyage = Industrialisation + Conscription; Coal to Ulundi 72; 75 Gift from Spanish
0660 - Corporation; Beads to Ulundi 31; Gold/Dye/Hides to Utica 163/60/31;
0700 - Steel; Hides to Carthage 282; Silk/Hides/Dye/Beads to Utica 120/244/64/78; Gems to Malaca 210; Wool to Panormus 84; Size 25
0720 - Refining; Dye to Utica 98; Gems to Caralis 594; Gift of 100 from Spanish
0740 - Combustion; Coal to Carthage 150; Silver to Caralis 145; Embassy with Carthaginians
0760 - Automobile - Feudalism from Spanish; Start on Superhighways and more Libraries.
0780 - Mass Production; Gems to Malaca 936; Hides to Carthage 516; 150 Gift from Spanish;
0800 - Nuclear Fission; Oil/Salt/Dye to Carthage 129/66/516; 150 gift from Spanish;
0820 - Electronics + Chivalry; Gems to Caralis 174; Beads to Carthage 516;
0840 - Nuclear Power; Dye to Carthage 507; Oil to Ulundi x 2 = 511/99; Gift of 100 from Spanish
0860 - Leadership;
0880 - Tactics + Machine Tools; Oil to Isandhlwana 156; 150 Gift from Spanish; Beads/Oil/Salt/Beads to Ulundi 62/378/116/116; Salt to Carthage 516;
0900 - The Laser; Salt to Carthage 516; Dye to Ulundi 168;
0920 - Miniaturisation + Computers; Wine to Carthage 516; Dye to Isandhlwana 168; Oil to Ulundi x 2 = 315/215; Copper/Gems/Salt x 2/Dye to Ulundi /116/75/100x2/146; Dye to Caralis 174;
0940 - Flight + Radio; Beads to Cardiff 120; They want Nuclear Fission. Dye/Salt to Ulundi 53/62;
0960 - Advanced Flight Gems to Caralis 564; Swap Warrior Code with Celts; Silver to Carthage 170; Bribe Spanish Explorer blocking railway lines!
0980 - Rocketry; Gold to Ulundi 53;
1000 - Space Flight; Gems/Copper to Caralis 564/70; Wool to Bapedi 116; Swap Polytheism with Spanish in the hope that Superconductor is offered.
1020 - Plastics; Gems to Caralis 564; Start to sell some improvements ... I'm broke
1040 - Superconductor; Gems to Carthage 270;
1060 - Apollo Program; Silk/Gems to Carthage 282/270; Gift of 100 from Spanish; Dye to Ulundi 32;
1080 - Fusion Power; Gems to Carthage 268;
1100 - Spaceship Building ...
1140 - Launch 15-1-1-1-1-1 ship

AC Arrive 1176

______________________

SG(2)

[Zenon]

SG (2)

an excellent game. If we take Solo as a reference for early republic games this was the best monarchy approach in all of the games so far.

ImO Monarchy should be considered on big Continents with many AIs giving tribute, on medium or large maps and with less than average SSCs, using an expansive strategy like in your game. Under difficult circumstances we may still see a monarchy approach on the first place in one of the next games.

ELCG 3 was a good example for not going for Monarchy.

Zenon

[solo]

Zenon,

I've asked SG(2) to add a section to my strategy guide detailing an early Monarchy strategy, which both of you have used quite effectively so far in EL comparison games. Perhaps you would like to contribute something and/or collaborate here as well.

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by Zenon

ImO Monarchy should be considered on big Continents with many AIs giving tribute, on medium or large maps and with less than average SSCs, using an expansive strategy like in your game. Under difficult circumstances we may still see a monarchy approach on the first place in one of the next games.
ELCG 3 was a good example for not going for Monarchy.
Zenon

Those are also my thoughts on the case for Monarchy in these games.

In ELG3 (Medium Map) I did have a brief spell in Monarchy which I managed to achieve in 2450 (I hate being in Despotism) but formed a Republic in 825 - far sooner than in Games #1 and 2. When time allows I may replay the early part of game#3 and compare the result going directly into Republic. What we have to consider is the trade off between a prolonged period of Despotism for early Republic against the extra carrying cost of Monarchy.

-------------------------------

SG(2)

[solo]

What we have to consider is the trade off between a prolonged period of Despotism for early Republic against the extra carrying cost of Monarchy.

Exactly, since it all comes down to how many turns one will have to wait to learn the extra pre-requisite needed by Republic, and whether one can trade for any on path techs along the way. This probably overweighs the carrying costs of just one "off path" tech.

Another good argument for early Monarchy is that it is not really as "off path" as some others, since it is needed before Feudalism can be researched. When I skip Monarchy for early Republic, and give Republic to the AI, they usually delay going for Monarchy, which in turns delays Feudalism later on. If Monarchy is acquired and traded earlier, the AI will usually research upto at least Chivalry before techs along that path must be learned later on. Being able to trade for Chivalry later avoids the carrying costs of Feudalism (and perhaps Warrior Code, too), not a bad trade off for carrying Monarchy all game long.

In the ELG3 large map game, I went to Trade first, but decided on Monarchy next, because there was not a direct research path to Republic after the Trade first route through the tech tree. Once in Monarchy, and considering the lack of trade in my helpers, I stayed in it until I needed Republic to start celebrating my SSC. In Monarchy, MPE helped considerably in picking up techs normally acquired under a faster Republic. Since I was using a lot of triremes, Monarchy helped reduce unit support costs, too. Smaller delivery payoffs were compensated by quicker caravan builds and by the ability to make a few additional trades.

[Elephant]

Giving away Monarchy also gets a few Militaristic civs out of Despotism when they refuse to go to gifted Republic. And trading for Chivalry avoids having to get Horseback Riding too. I am researching Nuclear Power right now, there are three civs researching Chivalry but it looks like I may have to do it myself. Another lesson in Solos warning about too much tech gifting...

[Zenon]

Solo,

I think you asked exactly the right person to contribute on the early Monarchy approach. SG (2) has a very good opening under Monarchy and I am looking forward to read his advice. If I can contribute anything I´ll be happy to do so.

Solo, SG(2), Elephant,

I agree with everything that has been said here. I´d like to add that I think that the main problem in early Monarchy is the delay to trade (and MPE), not the tech pace in general. Celebration is also no problem. Like SG(2) I went to republic in 825 in my last game, plenty of time to grow the SSC. But trade is the key to everything. If there are reasonable trading opportunities early Republic will get an advance that is likely to hold throughout the game.

Trading opportunities should also be added to SSC quality, map size and home continent size to determine the right approach. They are just difficult to forsee at the start.

Zenon

[solo]

Zenon,

I agree 100% about your observation about the importance of trade, which is why the section on Trade dwarfed all others in my guide.

It's interesting to note that when comparing our games in #3, my discovery of Trade and my landing date preceded these events in your own game by about the same number of turns.

Also, when comparing #3 to the first two games the main reason for a much better date in my #3 game was the discovery of Trade so many turns earlier.

I think a little black clicking at the start will tell you if you are isolated (as was the case in #3), which should be enough info to base one's choice on which early government type to go for.

I also eagerly await SG(2)'s words about early Monarchy. He has mastered the art of extracting all possible tribute, and produces the the most impressive and well-developed empires in the short time span alotted, making my minimal group of cities look anemic!

Thank goodness he spends just enough extra time concentrating on these things!

Elephant,

Some more good points I forgot. Thanks for adding them in.

[Elephant]

I finally finished over the weekend: launched a 15-6-3 in 1580AD, landing 1596AD. I got very sloppy in the late game; I was so fascinated with the tech-a-turn from only 8 cities I neglected to prepare my cities for building spaceship parts. I'll prep my summary and log for posting this evening.

Thinking about #3 also was a distraction... I start tomorrow!

[DrSpike]

Haven't finished this game yet so I've not read everything.......but I'll stick my oar in about the Monarchy/Republic debate.

I remain eminently suspicious about Monarchy openings with the sort of land usually picked for these EL games. I think what attraction it may have is predominantly a result of the no huts rule, since this removes the incentive to explore in republic and makes more tech trading desirable given no freebies from huts.

However I think republic can be tweaked to be nearly always the best choice given great land. More on this soon.

[Scouse Gits]

DrSpike ... I think a period of Monarchy is desirable on some maps. It works better on big landmasses and large maps.

--------------------

SG(2)

[DrSpike]

Don't get me wrong.........I don't like early republic. It's just that these maps are picked in such a way that they favour early republic.

I agree that monarchy is relatively more desirable on big maps and maps with large landmasses........but I think so far (after only 1 and a half no huts games though - half of what others have played) that "Sololiquy" Republic can be tweaked to make it the percentage choice even under those conditions.

I'm sure others have made tweaks to the classic approach as well......it is clear that no huts has consequences slightly more subtle than just requiring a few additional techs.

[solo]

Dr. Spike,

I don't quite get what you mean about how the maps used so far favor early Republic. Maps are randomly generated, and the first one found with a a decent SSC site is used for a comparison game. So far, 2 out of the 3 medium map starts have been on large continents, one map having two AI and the other having 4. If anything, these maps should favor early Monarchy. Only the map for #3 seemed to really favor early Republic.

Perhaps I do not understand the criteria you are using to judge map selections. If not, please elaborate.

Perhaps it is the no hut rule that acts more to favor early Republic than the starting position players find in comparison games. The no hut rule was implemented to level the playing field, by reducing the amount of luck and forcing players to rely more on their skills. A side effect of this rule is the lack of NON units, which may be more valuable to an early Monarchy for extracting tribute. Another side effect is that Trade becomes more important and early Republic benefits more than Monarchy when there is more early trade.

In spite of these advantages for an early Republic, I do not think a strategy of using early Monarchy should be discarded quite yet. I thought it was the better choice in the large map game for #3, but failed to take full advantage of some possibilities I noticed after my game had been completed. I have thought up a new way of using early Monarchy that I may try in a future game. Much depends on how the openings go, and which techs are available from the AI.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by solo
Dr. Spike,

I don't quite get what you mean about how the maps used so far favor early Republic. Maps are randomly generated, and the first one found with a a decent SSC site is used for a comparison game. So far, 2 out of the 3 medium map starts have been on large continents, one map having two AI and the other having 4. If anything, these maps should favor early Monarchy. Only the map for #3 seemed to really favor early Republic.

Perhaps I do not understand the criteria you are using to judge map selections. If not, please elaborate.

Well perhaps it was just the way it turned out but map 1 had a SSC with good specials and another few sites on whale and fish + a bagload of rivers. I was impressed with Monk's Monarchy, but I believe if the same player played that map in a skilled manner with the 2 openings the republic would win every time. If you played my 1AD from this game you would land around 1200 or even earlier.

Perhaps it is my prejudice, and after studying SG's monarchy opening after playing games 2 and 3 I will change my mind.

Reading the rest of your post I can see we view the effect of no huts slightly differently, which worries me given your pedigree.

To me the sololiquy early rep. is the best way to play with huts. Without huts there are no/less exploring units finding civs in republic, partly because of no units from huts, and partly because there is less incentive to explore without huts. I see the Monarchy/Republic debate as a choice between aggressive exploration and expansion with attempts at getting a lot of tribute in Monarchy and what I believe will become the standard no hut Republic with MPE and no early exploration. I have 2 MPE openings I tried whilst replaying the start of 1 a few times.......I have selected 1 for map 2.

It is my belief that the MPE republic will beat the monarchy opening most time there is good land, which there nearly always will be because you select the maps so that there is a good SSC. I may well be wrong on this, but that is my thought so far.

[DrSpike]

In contrast to my closing thought above think of a situation where you play the first map bar none. Now you have no guaranteed SSC and a Monarchist aggressive expansion and exploration becomes far more alluring.

[solo]

I agree about MPE, and believe it's very powerful when used with early Republic.

I think terrain, good or bad, has an equal effect on both Monarchy and Republic.

Maps with adequate SSC sites are chosen for comparison games to give each one at least a nominal chance to produce the next record. I think players would lose interest if lousy starts were used.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by solo
I agree about MPE, and believe it's very powerful when used with early Republic.

I think terrain, good or bad, has an equal effect on both Monarchy and Republic.

Maps with adequate SSC sites are chosen for comparison games to give each one at least a nominal chance to produce the next record. I think players would lose interest if lousy starts were used.

Well point 3 may well be true but in making that choice you are removing the main scenario in which a Monarchy opening is most attractive. It may well be that it is still attractive......but right now I'm sceptical.

I disagree with your second point........bad terrain affects an early monarchy strategy less IMO than it does an early republic strategy. With no clear SSC site one should IMO add more cities and explore/expand more aggressively (probably in Monarchy, maybe with HG) at the start.

[solo]

You could be right about Monarchy being the better choice for poor sites, and if enough players agree, a future game may be played using the first start generated, in order to limit the chances of a having a good SSC site.

[DrSpike]

Hehe its a tricky one. For now the games should probably focus on maps where the 1000AD barrier with no huts is beatable. I for one wont rest until I have beaten it.

But I do believe complete ELG mastery includes getting good times on maps where there may be no SSC. When the game is slowed down in this manner I think different approaches would be necessary. I could even see two distinct monarchy variants here........one that bails out early into republic and another that expands much more and attempts to catch up in the late game with many turns with multiple techs.

Of course if I am wrong about the balance of strats on map 1 say then there is no real need to jeopardise getting good times.

I wonder what others think.

[Elephant]

I think we have identified Early Republic as the most common strategy for the best games (which is why I am struggling to learn it), but I do think that Early Monarchy has its place if you have determined, say by 3000BC, that you are on a large continent, likely with other civs, or if you find another civ nearby. The other situation that I may have overgeneralized from the first two games was that Early Republic may have been a better choice for the first game, since there were several rivers and hills, allowing more shields, while Early Monarchy seemed like a better choice for the second, with no rivers or hills around unless you moved westward.