The Sweetness and Light Game - Page 5

Bloody Monk · April 5, 2003, 16:31

Someone earlier (I won't say who) remarked that they had changed build orders from libraries to markets. Please look at the 1060 save and notice that Beggarsville and Green Meanie are gaining nothing from their markets, whereas, libraries would have been additive to beakers.

Received wisdom is to build markets where taxes bring in at least four gold. Otherwise, the annual maintenance makes them a waste.

FYI

Monk

Scouse Gits · April 5, 2003, 16:53

Hi Monk!

1) We have Navigation so disbanding Triremes into Caravels makes sense as they will move 4 and carry 3.

2) No chance of swapping with the Babylonians whilst their "great minds work on Leo's."

3) No gifts from Indians. On balance we didn't want to lose the alliance as they are the key civ. Your point about the air ticket home is well taken. Try it!

4) We are at war with the Americans as they demanded 150g tribute when we attempted contact.

Good Luck with your turns.

-------------------

SG(2)

SCG · April 5, 2003, 16:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Received wisdom is to build markets where taxes bring in at least four gold. Otherwise, the annual maintenance makes them a waste.

FYI

Monk

actually a city only needs to bring in 2 gold for a marketplace to pay for its maintenance (2*150%=3). Also keep in mind that a marketplace means 50% more luxuries in the city, so will celebrate at a much lower lux rate. I notice both cities are at least size 7, meaning they probably were celebrated up in size? If so, the marketplaces accomplished their goals.

One other note, Green Meanie only has 4 luxuries (3 +1 from marketplace). with 1 less luxury, we would need an entertainer, or to move a worker from the forest to the sea to prevent disorder = we are getting 2 extra production towards caravans each turn.

Bloody Monk · April 5, 2003, 17:50

Quote:

Originally posted by SCG

actually a city only needs to bring in 2 gold for a marketplace to pay for its maintenance (2*150%=3). Also keep in mind that a marketplace means 50% more luxuries in the city, so will celebrate at a much lower lux rate. I notice both cities are at least size 7, meaning they probably were celebrated up in size? If so, the marketplaces accomplished their goals.

One other note, Green Meanie only has 4 luxuries (3 +1 from marketplace). with 1 less luxury, we would need an entertainer, or to move a worker from the forest to the sea to prevent disorder = we are getting 2 extra production towards caravans each turn.

Actually, neither had a market when they both got to size eight. It was done with 80% Lux. See the 480 save. The markets came later.

Your point about the breakeven cost misses my point (which I did a poor job of stating.) Until you can get four gold as "base tax" (which will = six gold with a market) a market does not add to tax collections, net the maintenance. Anything less than four is spinning your wheels and has an opportunity cost in terms of what you could have built instead. That's why I say it is a waste; a waste of time, shields, and opportunity

Even now, Beggarsville generates only one gold from taxes. Far below breakeven. A Library would have brought in +4 beakers per turn. Your point in favor of Green Meanie is valid if you are willing to give up +7 beakers for +2 shields per turn. I lean to greater science and don't mind hiring entertainers.

Much later, when we finally get to Fundy, libraries will be unimportant, as we will run with zero science slider. At this time, our emphasis is on science so we can get to Fundy sooner.

Not saying you are wrong; just offering this for your consideration.

Monk

Bloody Monk · April 5, 2003, 17:54

SG(2),

Happy weekend!!

Thanks for the quick response.

Based on your experience with the American AI, I am inclined to think the Indian alliance won't last long anyway.

Monk

Bloody Monk · April 6, 2003, 00:27

Looking at this situation, I like what I see. There are many possible paths from here and some good suggestions from the previous contractors.

We are about to get sanitation and ST completes on hitting enter. This suggests a sewer and cranking Lux for WLMonkD. But our other cities are not ready to celebrate; they need many harbors, markets, ducts, and some land improvement. Let's see if there are other options.

The Greens have Invention and are building Leo's...but they are Receptive. I decide to swap them for Invention and start a race for Leo's Shop. This will solve the trireme/caravel dilemma and give the usual benifits as we get better mil-tech. Then we can scoop up Sir Ike and thenbuild the sewer and helper improvements.

Game Log

--Contact Greens. They are happy to trade us their Invention wisdom. Such rubes.

Moves tech rate to 5 turns.
--Contact Indians and give them everything but Theory of G-spots. Moves tech rate back to 4 turns. Get Maps. Ask for gift --> they bust the Alliance. This sends our boat home for us.

--Contact Romans. Give a few and get new map. These guys have been busy.
--Change build orders for caravels to camels (which will make our triemes caravels with Leo's Shop)
--Shakespeare's Theatre builds overnight. Amer, change to Magellan, Germs to Leo...could be interesting.

1080 food vans HG/Green

1100 food vans Beg/Big/Bad...Sanitation --> Chemistry

1120 food van MeanC

1140 food vans Max; Silk in Sticky...Complete Leo's Shop Others change to King Rich.

1160 Greens build King Rich, Rom/Ger switch to Magellan.

1180 Harbor in Pool

1200 food van HG

1220 food van Green; Gems in Beg; Gems in MeanC. Boston builds Magellan; Rome learns Physics; Chemistry --> GunPowder

1240 Harbor BadLeRoyBrown.

1260 Harbor Sticky Meanie... send out ship with three good vans to Amer. Sir Ike's is half done with the needed vans arriving soon.

The Monk slips out the back, being thankful this game has no Institute.

Bloody Monk · April 6, 2003, 00:35

And the save...

Bloody Monk · April 6, 2003, 01:04

SCG,

--I left the sliders at 424, as I think we will need some cash to fund the huge white goods project ahead. The vans at sea will help, but the Americas are far away.

-- If Mean City gets a sewer right after Sir Ike completes, the food box will not be wasted. We can get size 13 without changing Lux.

--Manipulating the tech choices by swaping the Romans for Physics will allow us to select Explosives next. It won't be available without the swap. Demo or Metal will be available without a swap, however.

--Some selective tech gifting may be in order. The Germans are working on Sanitation and the Indians, Medicine, among others. Might be able to move then on to something we can swap for. Also, we have four more techs than our key civ, though I don't recall what the start was.

--I suggest we get a few key techs before Fundy causes our tech rate to fall. The SG's suggested going all the way to Spys first; if not that far, at least Explosives, Railroad, Corporation, IMHO.

--Our little Republic is about to take off. Have fun.

Monk

SCG · April 6, 2003, 01:17

have the game now, will look over it tomorrow. I don't forsee switching to Fundy for a while longer as its only 1260ad, and we can't depart for another 6 centuries, one of which will have 50 turns (1750-1850); we should hopefully have most of the techs we need by then and still be able to build up an army

Bloody Monk · April 6, 2003, 01:42

Perhaps SG[1] will clarify. As I read the rule, we are restricted from going to war until both 1850 and a hard Fundy. But, we can research and change to Fundy sooner.

Monk

SCG · April 6, 2003, 10:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Perhaps SG[1] will clarify. As I read the rule, we are restricted from going to war until both 1850 and a hard Fundy. But, we can research and change to Fundy sooner.

Monk

Quote:

originally posted by SGs in concert
Before 1850AD and Hard Fundamentalism

* No attacking except on Holy Home Continent - may repulse invasions
* No military land units or Settlers or Engineers may leave the Holy Home Continent
* Any goverment at any time, BUT once Fundamentalism is discovered we MUST take it at the next oedo year and stay in it thereafter
* All Wonders except SoL - only the except SoL part is mandatory

I read that saying we change on the first available oedo year, reguardless of whether its before or after 1850. Therefore, since its still quite a ways away, I won't be researching fundy

We have more important techs to get.

And on a side note, i do read the rules as saying we are to start building an army before we depart, and it would be handy to be in fundy at that point (maybe around 1820-1830), as the support costs are much lower and we have the tithes.

Scouse Gits · April 7, 2003, 04:15

Yes there are several possible world views -- we felt that growth was of higher importance than Leos - after all we will eventually be building a modern army and anticipate that Leo will be dead long before 1850 - hence our lack of enthusiasm for that WoW - we had thought to bypass it and go for Ike's. Similarly, we have no need of Poly - no one had Mono when we were playing - once it pops out we can get it and win the race to Mike's.
Only the Romans are within realistic trading range, so we had discounted any other trading partners.
We agree that getting fundy early would be shooting ourselves in the foot.
The glory of this game is that there are so many different ways of skinning every cat.

SG[1]

Old n Slow · April 7, 2003, 10:40

In my defense,

Noting the fine line between cheating, sleazing & good play I opted for the ‘whatever isn’t explicitly denied is permitted’ sense of rules -- most of the succession games I’ve seen don’t allow restarts, so that was OK by me. I’ve seen some examples of good play (Xinning, use of oedo years) which are now taken for granted. Other techniques, say black clicking, may be considered taboo by some, but might be OK by others. I opted to rehome the camels seeing no prohibition -- so with the adjusted rules, no more rehoming for this game for me. (We will, of course also ignore the comment about the “rehoming of the Salt caravan in SG’s post -- it must’ve been a typo.)

Regarding the switch of Libraries to Markets -- I had three choices -- a) leave the builds as libraries, knowing that upon their completion, they were going to be worthless (at zero science) for the while; b) switch to camels & lose 50% of the shields invested to date; or c) switch to markets, were they would produce under the high tax rates imposed & add thereafter. Would have switched them to camels if the shield boxes were only somewhat filled, but there was considerable investment to date at the time & I rushed a couple of them anyway to switch them over.

One can only wonder if the extra coins from those markets led to a rushed camel that brought in beakers greater than the beakers that would have been produced by those same investments in the form of libraries.

Point of clarification -- we don’t want the Statue of Liberty (and if correct, does this also imply that we walk around the city that has it until the very end, or do we raze that self same city for their construction of a pagan idol?)

Otherwise -- great work guys -- with good management of the tech tree will we be able to postpone Fundy until future tech?

Bloody Monk · April 7, 2003, 10:59

Hi SG[1]!!

You could be right about favoring growth of the SSC first. I thought about it from both points of view and decided it was likely a push. I came down on the side of upgrades and delaying the bump of Lux slider until more cities are ready. But, having Sir Ike and a fatter SSC sooner would also be very

for our research rate.

I don't understand the comment about Poly/Mono/Mike's. You say we have no need of Poly, but we already have Poly

If you mean, we have no need of hurrying to act on having Poly to get Mono for Mike's, well

We already have Mike's.

I'm sure you had a solid point that I am missing. Maybe the statement was a bit sparse and the unstated details would be helpful...please.

I will submit to Institute retrainning if you insist.

Monk

Bloody Monk · April 7, 2003, 11:06

SG[1],

One thing that comes through from the post by Old n Slow is that we need a SXN Game version of rah rules, for the benifit of newer players.

Monk

Bloody Monk · April 7, 2003, 11:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Old n Slow
In my defense,

Noting the fine line between cheating, sleazing & good play I opted for the ‘whatever isn’t explicitly denied is permitted’ sense of rules -- most of the succession games I’ve seen don’t allow restarts, so that was OK by me. I’ve seen some examples of good play (Xinning, use of oedo years) which are now taken for granted. Other techniques, say black clicking, may be considered taboo by some, but might be OK by others. I opted to rehome the camels seeing no prohibition -- so with the adjusted rules, no more rehoming for this game for me. (We will, of course also ignore the comment about the “rehoming of the Salt caravan in SG’s post -- it must’ve been a typo.)

You correctly point out the need for a set of rules for SXN Games.

I don't think that was a typo. Read it as, 'we just delivered a van that had been rehomed by someone previously,' and it is very, very clear.

Quote:

Originally posted by Old n Slow

One can only wonder if the extra coins from those markets led to a rushed camel that brought in beakers greater than the beakers that would have been produced by those same investments in the form of libraries.

I think you miss the concept of annual maintenance. Except for special situations, science will be the prominent slider, until Fundy. With science at 70%, those markets are a drain of 1g/turn. One wonders, what extra coins??

In the long run, we will need those markets. It is just a question of sequence and remembering the Big Picture while making decisions with long term effects. Science at zero was a special situation and should not have influenced the decision, IMHO.

"Future Tech"...that's a good one.

Monk

Scouse Gits · April 8, 2003, 03:33

Yes - rah rules for Succession Games are a must...

Seems I got some games confused

with my blithering about Poly, Mono & Mike - will spend a term at The Institute.
No harm done with the rehoming - we just don't do it again - nice to see the newer members of the Institute giving a robust defense to our olf fartish robust criticism

SG[1]

-Jrabbit · April 8, 2003, 10:43

Preliminary dubbing = Scouser Rules.

SCG · April 8, 2003, 15:35

again, we have lots of units on goto? and with as little as our island is, why??? last save also had units on goto as well from the SGs. make note of where units are headed towards and take off goto.

A couple of items will be finished this turn - harbor in SM, caravan in PoG, Harbor in BV might not be the best choice with aquaduct and library still needed, 3 other caravans in build and of course INC in MC with 3 vans en route. we probably could use a few more roads - beggarsville still only has the roads i built millinia ago and is using unroaded grasslands

we have 1 aquaduct and 1 uni, 2 libraries, 4 marketplaces, 3 harbors, and all cities have temples.

1260: get units off goto, tour of workers
1280: start silk towards romans, gems towards americans, minor worker adjustments, will need 132 gold instead of 3rd caravan and can get Ikes 1 turn earlier
1300: deliver 2 food and finish ikes, minor worker adjustments. take another glance at AI techs, only tech AI has that we don't is bridgebuilding and physics. germans have great library, so try a couple trades with the germans. see that they are hostile so speed along harbor in Maxwell's Hammer. they demand sanitation, but still icy... chemistry and theory of gravity get them to neutral, but out of techs... contact romans - gift invention to get to receptive, trade for physics (sanitation) and bridge building (horseback riding), enthusiastic so share maps

they tire of the conversation.
Romans now taking econ, Deutsch decide to play hookie from school, Babs experimenting with gunpowder..., spanish surveying bridgebuilding, Yanks exploring concept of higher education, indians dying to learn about medicine. contact indians, gift all techs to indians and share maps, they ignore concept of alliances and break off talks. beakers started at 1155 and end at 1050 with 2 tech gains, indians now not researching anything
1320: Isaac Newton's College in Mean City. americans discover university, indians start and abandon Ikes. everyone but spanish and Yanks researching gunpowder atm. indians drop from enthusiastic to hostile on the turn change... rush harbors in both beggarsville and maxwell's hammer. hope babs discover gunpowder soon to speed research as germans are back to hostile as well. of course germans revolted so they could talk to me so prob a ways away now. need 226 gold to finish sewer next turn, so raise taxes slightly, dampen science a little more for celebration in Mean City.
1340: rush sewer in Mean City, side effect is celebration in Pool of Grace, which is building a food caravan and needs an aquaduc, not enough gold for its aquaduct this turn. several more cities could celebrate with 40% lux... many cities need marketplaces too... start tickling caravans and rush harbor.
1360: Sewer System in Stickie Meanie, more finishing of caravans. Getting all of the AI to revolt from the rep govts, plus all the tech gifting, plus my lowering of science to start celebrations has caused for a general slowdown. only the AI i didn't contact has gained techs, and by trading with each other...
1400: Silk (d,231) stickie meanie to Antium, Gems (xd, 60, Beggarsville) Gems (xd, 105, Mean City) to Antium, finish bank in Mean City, Aquaduct in pool of grace and beggarsville, marketplace in stickie meanie. considered continuing on to Americans, but was still 14 turns away...
1420: Gunpowder choose Explosives (debated between that and Econ, but econ should get discovered by someone sometime hopefully). rush harbor in Green Meanie
1440: Coal (d,42) to Maxwell's Hammer from Heaven's gate (it replaced a route with Mean City???), rush marketplace in Maxwell's Hammer.
1460: Germans discover gunpowder - oops, meant to gift that to them so they could make another discovery...

notes to successor: Veii demands gold (Big Bad Bill), and a delivery from Green Meanie should be produce well, even undemanded. Bill will celebrate with a marketplace, but needs a harbor to grow - should be able to make that gold delivery really worth it

Stickie meanie is celebrating but needs the aquaduct. Pool of Grace will need sewer to grow past 12 next turn, Beggarsville also needs one to grow in 2 turns. Maxwell's hammer needs aquaduct to grow after next turn. Heaven's Gate also should be able to celebrate with just a marketplace, but needs the aquaduct to grow... Mean City should be able to grow to 22 a couple turns after hitting 21 (18 now, and when at 19 should not have any specialists to keep growing) as i saved the food supply. A complete lack of white goods did hamper initial growth as most cities only had temples. I would liked to have had more ships and more caravans, but there was only so much that could be done, so i put the emphasis on growth. Now that we are getting a few more harbors and marketplaces, libraries should be on the build list along with getting back to caravans (and lowering taxes

)

things go slow when you get invited to dinner several nights in a row at a house without a computer

and of course the save

Bloody Monk · April 8, 2003, 18:13

SCG,

Good turnset. Things are looking good and the long period of "perfection" is well begun.

We can squeeze in another city between Pool and Beggar, at (110, 224), to give another harbor, boat builder, if someone gets bored.

I too noticed how the AI moved from Enthusiastic to Hostile overnight. We will need to be careful to plan ahead for any swapping by spending our treasury before contact.

Monk

Bob_Smurf42 · April 8, 2003, 18:25

I will play tonight or tomorrow night. All looks good.

Bob_Smurf42 · April 11, 2003, 18:53

Been busy the last few days. Playing now, will post in a couple hours or so. I'm up in a couple games at CFC also.

Bob_Smurf42 · April 11, 2003, 23:18

Here is the save. I will post a log tomorrow, after I get some sleep.

SCG · April 12, 2003, 08:56

well, i'm glad i rushed the aquaduct in Sticky Meanie, otherwise it would still be size 8... looks like there was no rush-buying whatsoever. as constructive critisism, if you were not going to rush buy anything and not grow any of the cities (even mean city didn't celebrate properly or it would be size 23 in republic and would still be growing by celebration right now), why leave luxuries at 40%? you could have gotten more science that way. But celebration growth would have more than made up for the lower tax rate by having several size 20+ size cites that not only produce more trade (ergo science) but can have scientists.

As for growth, the reason the tax rate was so high was to facilitate the purchacing of desperately needed structures that allow growth (marketplace, aquaduct, harbor, sewer system and bank). Evey one of our cities can grow via celebration right now if we would rush-buy the structures they are building (well sticky meaning needs a sewer system instead of a bank) except that we have 2 cities supporting caravels - those should have been rehomed at Mean City before switching to Demo, that or discovering industrialization first so they become transports).

Another point. Maxwells Hammer is going to waste food if we don't rush-buy the aquaduct this turn, as it is already size 8, is producing 6 surplus food and only needs 10 to grow (food is tabulated before production). Did i mention that if you put 2 of mean city's taxmen to work in the fields it can celebrate as is, even after wasting its food supply? Once we are forced into fundy, we won't be able to use celebrations to grow cities and the larger our cities are at that point, the quicker we can pump out conquering military, either by production or by rush-buying.

Ok, constructive critisism placed on hold for now till i see the log

La Fayette · April 12, 2003, 13:41

Bob,
No 'constructive criticism' from me, since SCG told you all (see previous post).
...except one point: we are researching Conscription, which is no use at all at the moment, since we are at peace with anyone... It would have been a much better idea to choose Magnetism or Steam Engine.

Anyway, we have only 4 engineers at work and almost no cash to buy the required improvements if we wish to grow. Hence, lux are reduced to 20 and science to 0 during 2 turns. Then Research = 60, in order to acquire Conscription in 3 turns.

Main events:
1630: Romans discover Magnetism (kills the power of Lighthouse

). And they say No to our offer ("too busy working on our great project: Adam..."). We have just started researching Steam... so be it!
1640: Ready for a small step of growth in smaller cities
(the bigger ones, size 12, need both Colloseums and Sewer Systems: too costly at the moment)
1660: SE discovered. We start researching RR.
Our glorious capital now size 24; smaller cities close to size 8; all cities size 12 have started building Colloseums.

Bob_Smurf42 · April 12, 2003, 15:10

The player after me gets a log up before I do??? That's no good.

Set tax at 10% tax, 50% science, 40% lux
1480 -- Sticky Meanie aquaduct-->bank
Babs get Gunpowder
Spain gets Bridge Building
1500 -- Indians get Gunpowder
Romans & Babs stop fighting
Romans get chemistry from Americans
Americans get invention from Romans
Romans and Americans sign a peace treaty
1510 -- Romans discover Economics, start A. Smith's
Discover explosives-->Metallurgy
1530 -- Romans get Gunpowder from Babs
Babs get Sanitation from Romans
Romans and Babs sign peace treaty
1540 -- Mean City builds spice van
Discover Metallurgy-->Democracy
1560 -- Americans get Physics
1570 -- BigBadBill Gold van to Veii-63g Caraval heads to Boston
1580 -- Discover Democracy-->Conscription
Odeo year, so Revolt to Democracy

La Fayette-Consription is a nesscecary step towards Fundy-plus it give us Riflemen. I don't see what's wrong with that.

Quote:

Originally posted by SGC
Ok, constructive critisism placed on hold for now till i see the log

Well, that's encouraging. I'm glad you have so much faith in me...