Whatever happened to free speech? - Page 7

Japher · March 18, 2003, 01:36

Long Live Freedom of Speech!!!!

Mod's Suck!!! Banana's Rule!!!!

I know, I'm banned.

You all get the point now?

Monkey.

Willem · March 18, 2003, 01:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming

Oh... they can express their opinions, and NOT accept the consequences... Special treatment for musicians?

You sure like harping on that one don't you? Should musicians keep their mouths shut regardless of how they feel about an issue? How's that for special treatment? The general public can say what they want, but a public entertainer can't have an opinion. That sounds fair!

Willem · March 18, 2003, 01:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

Did the Dixie Chicks go to the workplaces of their fans and try to get them fired?

Did the fans of the Dixie Chicks go to the record company and try to get them fired?

They went to the radio stations, same thing in that business.

Ming · March 18, 2003, 01:41

Actually... this is also a PRIVATELY owned site.

And the owners have the right to limit what is being said ON THEIR SITE... Just like the Radio Stations have the right to play the music they want to

Jaguar · March 18, 2003, 01:42

Whatever happened to the right to hate the Dixie Chicks?

Willem · March 18, 2003, 01:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrodrew

Much like the DixieChic was the only example you found.

Yeah right, the McCarthy days never happened. John Lennon as someone mentioned? The US has a long history of someone stepping in and dictating what gets presented to the public, one way or another.

Japher · March 18, 2003, 01:44

when the following equation is true:

those who are offended >>>>> then those who are not

then you get F'd

welcome to democracy and the limitations of Free Speech...

But, and this is a big but, you can still say it if you want to risk the big F and not face the big D (and I don't mean Dallas).

Ming · March 18, 2003, 01:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem
You sure like harping on that one don't you? Should musicians keep their mouths shut regardless of how they feel about an issue? How's that for special treatment? The general public can say what they want, but a public entertainer can't have an opinion. That sounds fair!

I'm harping on it because you seem to think musicians should recieve special treatment.

I have never said they should keep their mouths shut, or that they shouldn't have their own opinoins, and that they shouldn't voice them. They have those rights, and I'm 100% behind them having them. I did say they should expect whatever happens when they do... JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE

You seem to think that musicians should be able to say whatever they want, and not pay the price for it. But that their fans can't express their opinions... That doesn't sound fair to me...

Willem · March 18, 2003, 01:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming

So, your point besides artists deserve special treatment, and their fans don't?

Give it up Ming, you're starting to sound like a broken record. I'm getting tired of arguing the same point over and over. Try something new for a change.

Ming · March 18, 2003, 01:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem
They went to the radio stations, same thing in that business.

Not even close... And even if they went to the records companies... They could always find a new record company...

People in America have been boycotting products for a long time now. Going to companies and telling them they won't buy their products if they continue "some" action. Are you now saying that musicians again deserve special treatment and people shouldn't be allowed this basic freedom/right?

Imran Siddiqui · March 18, 2003, 01:48

Quote:

They went to the radio stations, same thing in that business.

Because artists of that nature make their money from the radio?

Their album [i]Home[i] has been out for months now. Everyone that listens to Country has heard at least one song from it. To not have it on the radio now doesn't hurt them.

Furthermore, the Dixie Chicks are of such popularity (now infamy), that all they'll have to do is announce an album and they are guarenteed huge sales, even without radio airplay.

How much you want to bet that this 'ban' is removed in a month?

Jaguar · March 18, 2003, 01:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior
Whatever happened to the right to hate the Dixie Chicks?

Come on, Willem, it's a simple question.

Ming · March 18, 2003, 01:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem
Yeah right, the McCarthy days never happened. John Lennon as someone mentioned? The US has a long history of someone stepping in and dictating what gets presented to the public, one way or another.

You know he has admitted defeat when he says stuff like that.

Please explain how those OTHER EXAMPLES have anything to do with this situation.

We have some fans who are pissed at people who they have been supporting, and have excerised their own right of self expression... Not anything like your other examples...

Since you are a musician, you just want special treatment. I can understand that... but in America, the fans have rights too... We call it being fair

loinburger · March 18, 2003, 01:51

This is small potatoes compared to the horrible oppression inflicted on artists back during the Disco Demolition, when repression really meant something, dammit. Won't somebody please think of the children.

Willem · March 18, 2003, 01:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior

That's because you have crap music like Avril, Sheryl, Nickelback, Sum 41, and Shania.

And good music like Bruce Cockburn, Tragically Hip, Blue Rodeo, Barenaked Ladies, Crash Test Dummies.

ravagon · March 18, 2003, 01:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem

Should musicians keep their mouths shut regardless of how they feel about an issue? How's that for special treatment? The general public can say what they want, but a public entertainer can't have an opinion. That sounds fair!

I really don't understand this at all.

(1) People in general, including the category of public entertainers, are entitled to their own opinions about pretty much anything.

(2) People in general, including the category of public entertainers, are entitled to express their own opinions about pretty much anything as long as such opinions aren't an incitement to commit violence.

(3) People in general, excluding the categories of public entertainers and just about everything else public, are not subject to public appearance nor are their careers/livelihoods elevated/depressed by public reaction or image.

(4) Those categories of people whose careers/livelihoods are subject to public appearance occasionally have to be careful that they don't do anything so abyssymally publically stupid that their career/livelihood is detrimentally impacted.
Sometimes known as plain common sense.

Jaguar · March 18, 2003, 01:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem

And good music like Bruce Cockburn, Tragically Hip, Blue Rodeo, Barenaked Ladies, Crash Test Dummies.

and Celine Dion, too!

Anyway, are you going to even bother answering my question, or should I stop paying attention to this thread?

Imran Siddiqui · March 18, 2003, 01:55

Quote:

The views of groups like the KKK infringe upon the rights and freedoms of other people, so no they shouldn't have that right.

Ah, so now we see where you stand. You say 'free speech' when you are for censorship of another groups' VIEWS themselves, SIMPLY because you don't agree with them! Jeez, McCarthyism at its finest.

So, if you were a radio show host, who had FULL control over the music, and a group that you play on your show said something praising the KKK, and your callers called in saying they don't want to hear the bigoted band, you'd keep them playing?

Pyrodrew · March 18, 2003, 01:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem
John Lennon as someone mentioned?

Considering there are far more people in America than Canada there are bound to be more cases of people exercising their freedom of speech here. Think %, in fact in terms of market size you owe a few more examples to catch up.

And if you want to relive McCarthy history then you should have done that to begin with.

Quote:

The US has a long history of someone stepping in and dictating what gets presented to the public, one way or another.

And you prefer someone stepping in & dictating to radio stations what is presented.

Japher · March 18, 2003, 01:59

DJ Quick, Anthrax, 2 Live Crew, Beastie Boys, Naughty by Nature, Aerosmith, The Doors, CCR, The Greatful Dead, Janis Joplin, Elivs, and Robert Johnson never challenged free speech?

Really?

Free Speech allowed these people to become what they are and remembered as, and formed the music world into what it is. Perhpas the Dixie Chicks are facing what they faced, and face much more of it. Yet, I think their retraction has pretty much said that they give, and they want the cash. They will not become the likes of these great Americans........................ bite me!!!! (had to add that, I am drunk... must sleep, happy St. Pats! Your all great.)

Willem · March 18, 2003, 02:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming
Not even close... And even if they went to the records companies... They could always find a new record company...

Hell they could probably afford to start their own. And yes the radio stations and the record companies are tied into the same business. Or perhaps my twenty some odd years as a musician and hanging around with musicians has taught me nothing at all. No airplay, no exposure. No exposure, no album sales. Music Business 101 Ming, maybe you should look into first before you try and ridicule someone who might know a bit more about it than you do.

Quote:

Are you now saying that musicians again deserve special treatment and people shouldn't be allowed this basic freedom/right?

And I'll ask it yet again, is the general public allowed to have an opinion without someone trying to sabotage their careers, but musicians aren't? Not buying their CDs is one thing, but this campaign stops just short of a vendetta IMO. And only because they had the audacity to speak their mind, just like anyone else is entitled to.

Willem · March 18, 2003, 02:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior

and Celine Dion, too!

Anyway, are you going to even bother answering my question, or should I stop paying attention to this thread?

Oh give me a break, I'm getting it from five or six different sides at once. Wait your turn!

Imran Siddiqui · March 18, 2003, 02:19

Quote:

And I'll ask it yet again, is the general public allowed to have an opinion without someone trying to sabotage their careers, but musicians aren't?

I dunno, why don't you go into work and start saying Hitler was right and the Holocaust was correct. You'll start to see plenty of people start to sabatoge your career, with you being fired soon enough.

Jaguar · March 18, 2003, 02:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem

Oh give me a break, I'm getting it from five or six different sides at once.

I wonder why.

Willem · March 18, 2003, 02:20

Quote:

Originally posted by ravagon

Sometimes known as plain common sense.

Well yes, that certainly has been lacking on both sides of the issue.

Willem · March 18, 2003, 02:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior

I wonder why.

For simply feeling that fellow human beings, musicians in particular, are being unfairly and harshly treated. Sorry if that's a crime in your part of the world.

Ming · March 18, 2003, 02:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem
Music Business 101 Ming, maybe you should look into first before you try and ridicule someone who might know a bit more about it than you do.

Radio business 101... If people don't listen, you are out of business...

25 year as an advertising executive... I buy time on radio stations... but only on station people actually listen to.
Maybe you should look into something first before you try and ridicule someone who does know a bit more about it than you do

Quote:

And I'll ask it yet again, is the general public allowed to have an opinion without someone trying to sabotage their careers, but musicians aren't?

Again... If you are a public figure, what you say in PUBLIC may effect your career. Broadcasters get fired all the time for saying things that the viewers don't agree with. Politicians go down in flames when they don't watch their mouths. All public figures live under the same microscope... and musicians should be treated differently?

And AGAIN... people have the right to boycott products/companies for not agreeing with some action on their part... you seem to be saying that musicians deserve different treatment than other suppliers of goods and services.

They don't...

Willem · March 18, 2003, 02:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I dunno, why don't you go into work and start saying Hitler was right and the Holocaust was correct. You'll start to see plenty of people start to sabatoge your career, with you being fired soon enough.

So by trying to speak out against a war that they don't believe in, the Dixie Chicks are now at the same level as Hitler? Now that's tolerance!

Ming · March 18, 2003, 02:31

Here you are whining because some radio stations won't play their music, and fans are boycotting their product in a visible fashion... and how they are trying to ruin a bands career...

Yet on the other hand... you are saying that radio stations should ruin themselves by playing stuff their listeners don't want to hear...

Again... a double standard on your part. Musicians are people too... They have to except what their actions bring them. Just like everybody else

Willem · March 18, 2003, 02:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming

Yet on the other hand... you are saying that radio stations should ruin themselves by playing stuff their listeners don't want to hear...

I'm saying that radio stations shouldn't be one of the first on the bandwagon. Some of them are even leading the parade. That's just down right sleezy in my books, especially when just a few days before they were drooling over the band. What the fans do is their business, but those radio stations should at least have the decency of not inciting their public, which some of them clearly are doing.