Apolyton University Mod (Thread II)

[Dominae]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Either of these options would "improve" the AI but not handicap the human. Most of the comments against making Navigation mandatory are based on this change being a limitation on the human - so a better approach IMHO is to boost the AI instead.

It is very difficult (as in impossible) to boost the AI without also boosting the human player. For instance, the "doubled Specialists" change certainly makes the AI slightly more effective, but the human can also exploit the change quite well. The goal is to make changes such that the AI benefits more than the human, and doubled Specialists (I believe) is an example of this.

But I see no reason why "handicapping" the human player is also not a valid option. This is already done in such changes as the increased OCN, where it takes longer before the FP is available to be built. Notice that this "handicap" is not all that great, and most players are willing to live with it.

I believe the change to Navigation "handicaps" the player in a similar way. From the discussion on this thread and the Navigation poll, it seems players research Navigation independently of whether it is mandatory or required. Therefore I cannot see how this would affect strategy very much.

And by restricting the human's trading potential, the AI would be improved (if indirectly).


Dominae

[badams52]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Making Navigation mandatory doesn't improve the AI, it handicaps the human player. To level things out without handicapping the human either means leaving Navigation as optional and encouraging the AI to go for Magnetism or making Navigation mandatory but having it give a benefit that makes it a must have for the human.

Actually I would say this isn't much of a handicap for the human. If you're leading in tech at this point, the game's over (and why would you be playing the AU mod if you didn't want more of a challenge). If you're not leading in tech, it's just as easy to trade for navigation than it was before cause now the AI must research it.

Actually, maybe the reason I don't see this as a human handicap is that I've never skipped navigation on my way to the industrial era--I've always managed to trade for it or research it (I like to be able to explore with my ships and get map money and magnatism is too far away), but I guess it could be done.

[CerberusIV]

I think there is a bigger issue here in that there are a lot of optional techs in the medieval period, more than any other, and the human can bypass them to get to the industrial and trade for the optional techs later. I guess many people only go for techs that give a specific GW they want and democracy (because the AI places a high value on government techs).

The real issue is perhaps whether a tech at the end of an optional part of the tech tree should be made mandatory (and therefore optional techs on the way are mandatory too) so that the human player can't skip as many techs in the medieval.

There is probably a stronger argument for making economics mandatory, rather than navigation, in order to be able to manage an industrial era empire. That does however make democracy mandatory as well, which none of the government techs are at present.

I would be happy with a general approach of fewer optional techs which should force the human to research and trade techs more and be less able to exploit the AI.

[CerberusIV]

Looking at navigation in particular, I wonder if one answer would be to remove ocean trading from magnetism and give it to combustion. Exploration would presumably still be possible without navigation as galleons and frigates could cross ocean but a player who wants/needs to trade across ocean would have to get navigation or wait until mid-industrial.

Or just remove ocean trading from magnetism if this causes the AI to value navigation higher?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Or just remove ocean trading from magnetism if this causes the AI to value navigation higher?

I thought of this as well, but did not propose it, in fear of the outcries of "it would remove strategic options!". If Navigation (an optional tech) were to unlock the ability to trade across Ocean, it would arguably not be mandatory at all.

Yet this is the whole point, and it is also why I like this solution. Note that certain techs, like The Republic and Military Tradition have abilities so useful that they're, for all intents and purposes, mandatory. The only games where you would not want Cavalry around are those where you're either very far ahead (and able to just fly into the Industrial age unscathed in order to get at all the goodies there) or very far behind (where you would rather just get "industrialized" as quickly as possible). Similarly with Navigation, if it were the only tech to allow Ocean trade: in some games, Ocean trade is simply not all that useful.

What do others think about this alternative change?


Dominae

[Theseus]

Tricky tricky... what would be the effect on the valuation of other techs?

Keep it simple. Make Navigation mandatory.

[Nor Me]

From the statistically significant one game (AU207), the changes to Mathematics and Mapmaking do seem to make the AI research a greater variety of techs. But the player can still exploit the AI's research path. A 40-turn Currency or even Construction is now possible.

I'd like to repeat my previous criticism of the descision to take the defensive flag away from the Bowman. Even if the current upgrade path is kept, the period where the Babylonians would have longbowmen instead of pikemen defending cities is going to be short compared to the period when the Bowman is the best defender.
I should not be able to archer rush Babylon so easily .

Originally posted by Dominae
in some games, Ocean trade is simply not all that useful.

?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Theseus
Strike the last two.

Well, all the powers listed above had some fleet... but ships comparable to those represented by "navigation"?

India was navigating way before Spain was, but only from Africa to Indonesia...

ok, maybe India could be included.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Nor Me
I should not be able to archer rush Babylon so easily.

*** AU207 Spoiler ***

The reason you were able to Archer-rush the Babs easily in AU207 is their start location. The Babs originally had a great start spot down there (closer to the River, with some Bonus Grasslands and Game), and it felt like they might be a little too strong so early on (I did want to be too "evil" after the Greeks situation in AU 204).

So it is still an open question as to whether Bowmen Offense/Defense flags should be altered.

Concerning your confusion about my statement that Ocean trade is sometimes not all that useful, I am, of coourse, speaking in relative terms. In some games I would never trade the option to get Cavalry ASAP for the ability to trade over Ocean tiles. Also consider that on of my main strategies with civs on other continents is to sign alliances with the weaker ones against the stronger ones. So I do not get to benefit from trading with the best overseas civs. This is fine with me, as (in my experience) the benefits of keeping the AI at war far outweigh the benefits of peaceful trade.


Dominae

[CerberusIV]

Following on from my post in the Navigation poll thread (apologies for jumping threads) about whether there are too many optional techs I would like to suggest a more drastic change (not too drastic for the AU mod I hope ).

The intention is to reduce the number of optional techs in the medieval/industrial to reduce the opportunity for the human to exploit the AI by skipping techs and picking them up cheaply later.

I would suggest that no more than a quarter of the techs in any era should be optional as a rule of thumb.

First I would suggest an increase in the optional techs in the Ancient era by making Horseback Riding optional. This would allow the human to not fall quite as far behind at that point in the game. It seems odd that HBR is mandatory when Chivalry and MT are not. Also the Wheel shows the horse resource and why should a civ with no horses and no immediate prospect of getting any have to research HBR?

Second I would suggest reducing the Medieval optional techs to no more than five. Printing Press is mandatory in AU and I would propose adding Economics and Navigation as mandatory techs. Economics because otherwise where do the Corporation, stock exchanges and Wall Street come from? Navigation for the reasons Dominae has expounded. It might even be worth considering making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism. That way Astronomy would give sea travel/trading, Navigation would open it up to oceans and then Magnetism would introduce the advanced ships to take full advantage.

Third I would suggest reducing the Industrial optional techs to five by making advanced flight mandatory. Forcing players to research this would give the AI (if it is still in the game) a better shot at getting into the modern age in time to grab one or two of the GW's. Also, advanced flight gives helicopters which many of the modern technologies and improvements rely on in the real world.

If this is too radical for the AU mod would someone please say so and I will shut up on the subject

[nbarclay]

If I'm the only one seriously opposed to making Navigation mandatory, I guess I could live with making the change. If we do it, though, I'd like to make Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism. If all civs have to go through the "Navigation" stage of naval development, it seems only reasonable that they do it before Magnetism. And in gameplay terms, that would (1) guarantee that there's always a brief window where players can launch cross-ocean caravel invasions earlier than they could do the same with galleons and (2) perhaps narrow the window for intercontinental cavalry conquest a tad since the better invasion ship would come a little later.

[Dominae]

I'll post a more complete reply to CerberusIV and Nathan later on today.

For now, let me just point out that a relatively major consequence of making Navigation a prerequeisite for Magnetism is that Galleons and Frigates are pushed even further back into tech development. In many games this means Frigates (and even Galleons) will have an even smaller window of use.

I know it "makes sense" to make Navigation a prerequisite, but it does not help gameplay very much, and changes it rather drastically. The minimalist approach, simply making Navigation mandatory, is I think the best solution.


Dominae

[player1]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
First I would suggest an increase in the optional techs in the Ancient era by making Horseback Riding optional. This would allow the human to not fall quite as far behind at that point in the game. It seems odd that HBR is mandatory when Chivalry and MT are not. Also the Wheel shows the horse resource and why should a civ with no horses and no immediate prospect of getting any have to research HBR?

It's interesting to note that in non-patched Civ3, Hosreback Riding was an OPTIONAL tech.

The patches have changed that.

[player1]

Originally posted by Dominae
For now, let me just point out that a relatively major consequence of making Navigation a prerequeisite for Magnetism is that Galleons and Frigates are pushed even further back into tech development. In many games this means Frigates (and even Galleons) will have an even smaller window of use.

How so, if Navigation is also made mandatory?

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae

For now, let me just point out that a relatively major consequence of making Navigation a prerequeisite for Magnetism is that Galleons and Frigates are pushed even further back into tech development. In many games this means Frigates (and even Galleons) will have an even smaller window of use.

I'm not sure I buy that. Putting Navigation before Magnetism would have some effect of encouraging players to research Theory of Gravity before Magnetism if they don't have Navigation yet, in which case the window for galleons and frigates would be one tech shorter. But on the other hand, having players research Magnetism before Navigation if they didn't get Navigation earlier (since Magnetism provides better ships and Navigation doesn't) would strecth out the window for those ship types by an extra tech.

Further, any extension to or protection of the life of galleons and frigates would come at the expense of completely eliminating the life of ocean-going caravels (except as non-upgraded anachronisms). Since almost everything about Navigation is built around ocean-going caravels (either directly or as the implicit vessels of Magellan's Voyage and cross-ocean trade before galleons), forcing players to research Navigation yet having no window at all for ocean-going caravels seems nonsensical to me.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Originally posted by player1
How so, if Navigation is also made mandatory?

Because you get Magnetism much later in the tech tree, most probably toward the end since the AIs do not have access to it until Navigation is complete. Making Magnetism the last tech in the Medieval era does not leave much time for its boats until Steam Power comes along.

The case for Galleons is not as big as I had originally thought (since they're the best transport until Combustion). But Frigates and Privateers are even more useless. This is annoying.

Furthermore, the proposed change clearly supports a particular playstyle, namely, mass Cavalry inter-continental invasions (if those are necessary). I cannot see how this helps the AI.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

On the contrary, making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism tends to make intercontinental cavalry invasions slightly less practical. With Navigation a prerequisite, players approaching the end of the medieval era without Navigation have to launch their intercontinental invasion with caravels or else wait an extra tech for Magnetism. With Navigation mandatory but not a prerequisite, that trade-off does not exist.

And how often do AIs research Magnetism before Navigation? Players would get Magnetism later in games where they haven't already researched or traded for Navigation, but my impression is that the effect on when AIs get Magnetism would be minimal.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Further, any extension to or protection of the life of galleons and frigates would come at the expense of completely eliminating the life of ocean-going caravels (except as non-upgraded anachronisms).

Let's leave the problem of Privateers and Frigates for another day. The proposed change of making Navigation mandatory does not address it, nor affect it.

I would like to know what problem the "Magnetism requires Navigation" change is supposed to solve. The two reasons you (Nathan) proposed are to 1) make Caravels more useful, and 2) push back Galleon/Cavalry invasions. These are certainly areas needing improvement (minor, IMO; Caravels are already plenty useful in those dominant games where you want to reach your opponents with Knights ASAP, and funneling the Galleon/Cavalry strat through Navigation will actually make it more exclusive to the human player). Yet these areas of improvement are independent of making Navigation mandatory, so I'm confused as to why you want to "piggyback" them onto the change I'm proposing.

It seems to me that the true intention behind the change is to solve the (human) problem of the drawback of having to research yet another Medieval age tech. "At least Navigation will not be completely useless if I have no need for it until after Military Tradition". But these are not the types of problem we're trying to solve. In the interests of keeping things as unchanged as possible, I see no reason to play with prerequisites in this case.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
On the contrary, making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism tends to make intercontinental cavalry invasions slightly less practical.

You're right in this, and also right to say "slightly".

But you've come full circle in your arguments: before you wanted there to be a strategic decision in whether or not to research Navigation, and with the change you've just proposed there is none (the "Trade over Ocean" ability is now useless in Magnetism, correct?).

We're trying to make as few changes as possible here!


Dominae

[nbarclay]

My biggest reason for wanting to make Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism if we make Navigation mandatory is that otherwise, we have a completely nonsensical situation. There are two logically consistent ways of viewing Navigation. (1) Navigation represents a way of traveling oceans that quickly becomes obsolete, and that therefore can be skipped over if civs want to wait until better technology is available. (2) Navigation is necessry to travel oceans safely no matter what other techs a civ has, and therefore should be mandatory.

If we make Navigation mandatory without making it a prerequisite for Magnetism, we create a logically inconsistent state in which Navigation is mandatory yet in no rational way necessary. If galleons can sail oceans without Navigation, it stands to reason that ironclads, transports, battleships, and so forth should be able to as well. So what even remotely plausible justification is there for making Navigation mandatory?

This logical inconsistency, in turn, leads to a gameplay effect that could easily become rather annoying. If a player already has Magnetism, Navigation would be a tech that serves no sane purpose other than to slow him down. But if Navigation is a prerequisite for Magnetism, both techs bring significant new capabilities, and the risk that people will feel like they're being forced to waste time on something useless will be reduced dramatically.

In terms of number of rules changes, simply making Navigation mandatory and doing nothing else is the smaller change. But at a conceptual level, I think shifting Navigation from being something of only temporary value and therefore optional to being a prerequisite for all safe ocean travel and therefore both mandatory and a prerequisite for Magnetism is the most straightforward answer.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
If galleons can sail oceans without Navigation, it stands to reason that ironclads, transports, battleships, and so forth should be able to as well. So what even remotely plausible justification is there for making Navigation mandatory?

The point of the AU mod is not to create historical realism, or even have things "make sense". There are plenty of things in the game that "make no sense" (like The Wheel being a prerequiriste for Horseback Riding) which the AU mod does not address. So although your proposal is well-founded, I do not believe it belongs in the AU mod.

And notice that never in the game do you have to suspend your disbelief: in order to even reach Ironclads, Transports, etc. you need to be in the Industrial age, meaning your civilization would already know both Magnetism and Navigation. The fact that these are seperable in theory is not at all convincing to me to warrant a change in the mod.

This logical inconsistency, in turn, leads to a gameplay effect that could easily become rather annoying. If a player already has Magnetism, Navigation would be a tech that serves no sane purpose other than to slow him down.

Then you should also have objected to making Printing Press mandatory, which you did not. Similarly for Mysticism or Polytheism, which no "sane" peacemonger/builder would ever research. It sucks that some techs are useless and redundant, but addressing this issue is a whole other can of worms.

And, might I add, that the "slowing down" effect is really what we're trying to achieve here.

How about this alternative solution?

1. Navigation is mandatory.
2. Magnetism loses the "trade over Ocean tiles" ability.


Dominae

[CerberusIV]

I have to admit that making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism wasn't something I wanted to do as I like the relative simplicity of the tech tree (if you want complicated look at the tech chart for CtP2 ). It just seemed a logical solution.

I am basically in favour of making Navigation a mandatory tech to slow the human player down but I feel it should offer something worthwhile in consequence. Otherwise it will just feel like a penalty or a chore to research and I personally find that diminishes my enjoyment of the game, however slightly.

I have always wondered why two techs enable trade over ocean. I would certainly agree with mandatory Navigation if that is the only tech to allow ocean trade. It would actually be quite a neat solution as it separates the more peaceful side of maritime activity - trade and exploration - from the military side - warships and invasions. Players are left to decide which to do first but will, like the AI, have to acquire the ability for both before moving on.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
I have always wondered why two techs enable trade over ocean. I would certainly agree with mandatory Navigation if that is the only tech to allow ocean trade. It would actually be quite a neat solution as it separates the more peaceful side of maritime activity - trade and exploration - from the military side - warships and invasions. Players are left to decide which to do first but will, like the AI, have to acquire the ability for both before moving on.

I would have to say "three cheers" to this suggestion: it balances play and it represents history well.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae


The point of the AU mod is not to create historical realism, or even have things "make sense". There are plenty of things in the game that "make no sense" (like The Wheel being a prerequiriste for Horseback Riding) which the AU mod does not address. So although your proposal is well-founded, I do not believe it belongs in the AU mod.

As far as I'm concerned, there is an enormous difference between choosing not to tinker with things that are less than entirely realistic in the default rules and creating major new unrealisms.

And notice that never in the game do you have to suspend your disbelief: in order to even reach Ironclads, Transports, etc. you need to be in the Industrial age, meaning your civilization would already know both Magnetism and Navigation. The fact that these are seperable in theory is not at all convincing to me to warrant a change in the mod.

But why in the world do you need Navigation to navigate ironclads and transports, but not to navigate galleons? I see no even remotely sane reason for that.

Then you should also have objected to making Printing Press mandatory, which you did not. Similarly for Mysticism or Polytheism, which no "sane" peacemonger/builder would ever research. It sucks that some techs are useless and redundant, but addressing this issue is a whole other can of worms.

Based on an atheistic view of religion as nothing more than a cultural phenomenon, and assuming that one views religions as always following a certain pattern, one can view Mysticism and Polytheism as implicit prerequisites for Monotheism. But rather than have explicit prerequisite lines to Monotheism, Firaxis put them in different eras. (The whole religion structure in the game runs counter to my own religoius views - if God is real, why in the world would every civ have to go through a polytheistic phase? - but that's something I prefer not to think about.)

Similarly, my view on Printing Press is that there are limits to how far a civ's technology can evolve without the ability to print. Thus, viewing Printing Press as an implicit prerequisite for industrial techs (medical books, books conveying information about the sciences needed to develop steam power, nationalistic propaganda, and so forth) seems reasonable to me. The tech is not mandatory just to slow players down; it is mandatory because it is a logical, reasonable prerequisite for other things.

The difference with Navigation is that if it is a logical prerequisite for any later tech at all, it must of necessity be a logical prerequisite for Magnetism (at least as long as Magnetism involves safe ocean travel and trade). So if it is not a prerequisite for Magnetism, the idea that it is mandatory because it is an implicit prerequisite for industrial technologies becomes a farce.

And, might I add, that the "slowing down" effect is really what we're trying to achieve here.

How about this alternative solution?

1. Navigation is mandatory.
2. Magnetism loses the "trade over Ocean tiles" ability.

Is there a particular reason you're so intent on avoiding making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism? Yes, I know it's an extra rules change, but when you remove the optional nature of Navigation, you implicitly pull out the underpinnings that justify making it an independent tech instead of a prerequisite.

Your idea here seems reasonably viable, although it still leaves something of an inconsistency if galleons can travel safely through oceans but their ability to do so does not make trade possible. But is it really less of a change in the rules than making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism would be? Making Navigation a prerequisite means that a civ with Magnetism will always have the same abilities in the AU Mod that a civ with Magnetism would have in the stock game. In contrast, this approach actually changes things so that civs with Magnetism don't have the same abilities.

Nathan

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
As far as I'm concerned, there is an enormous difference between choosing not to tinker with things that are less than entirely realistic in the default rules and creating major new unrealisms.

I thought you said earlier that Navigation and Magnetism were "logically seperable" (my quotes). So, according to your concerns, making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism is unrealistic. This whole discussion is quite confusing, because you're jumping between arguing for gameplay and for realism.

But why in the world do you need Navigation to navigate ironclads and transports, but not to navigate galleons? I see no even remotely sane reason for that.

As you yourself state, just think about Navigation being "implicit" in the technologies required for Ironclads and Transports, since these are in different eras and Navigation is required (if the change goes through). This brings up the following objection:

The difference with Navigation is that if it is a logical prerequisite for any later tech at all, it must of necessity be a logical prerequisite for Magnetism (at least as long as Magnetism involves safe ocean travel and trade).

Again, this is arguing from a "things must be realistic!" point of view, which, I think, is not the right way to look at this game (which is a just an abstraction from reality), much less the AU mod. And from a purely realistic point of view, I imagine that many players would not blink twice if Navigation were in fact a mandatory Medieval tech, regardless of the minor inconsistencies it creates (we can swallow that Gunpowder is a prerequisite of Chemistry...why not this?).

I was going to start a big rant on realism here, but it is just not worth it...

So if it is not a prerequisite for Magnetism, the idea that it is mandatory because it is an implicit prerequisite for industrial technologies becomes a farce.

I can handle such "farces". Civ3 is full of such "farces", be they created by the designers or introduced by the players. This is not in the interests of the AU mod.

Is there a particular reason you're so intent on avoiding making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism?

The AU mod aims to change as little as possible. Without any testing, I would imagine that playing with prerequisites would cause some gameplay changes. Why introduce such changes just to cater to those (few) players who think that Navigation's new role would be "farcical".

But is it really less of a change in the rules than making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism would be?

I think so. I would rather just leave things as I originally proposed and simply make Navigation mandatory. The new clause was a compromise solution to address your concerns. I would be happy with changing as little as possible, even if it were to create some "unrealistic" situations.


Dominae

[nbarclay]

Dominae, the only thing I've really seen from you regarding why not to make Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism is that it changes the game. As far as I'm concerned, the damage of changing the game is done the moment Navigation is made mandatory. Navigation's position in the tech tree is shifted just as surely if it's made a prerequisite for the industrial techs as if it's made a prerequisite for Magnetism.

Once that step is taken, my priority becomes to fit Navigation into a revised tech tree in the cleanest and most reasonable way possible. If Navigation is a prerequisite for Magnetism, that works from every angle: it reflects history, it ensures that both Navigation and Magnetism bring benefits when they are discovered, and it provides a logical foundation for why Navigation ought to be mandatory. And I also view the effect on intercontinental cavalry invasions as a plus, albeit a small one.

And I just thought of one other tidbit: making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism shortens the window for a human player to trade for Navigation a little extra. That reduces opportunities for using a trade to get Navigation from an AI that is relatively uncompetitive. Thus, it enhances the effects you were seeking in making Navigation mandatory in the first place, albeit not by a huge amount.

In contrast, I see no clear advantages in terms of either gameplay or logical consistency/realism to making Navigation mandatory yet not making it a prerequisite for Magnetism. Even the effect in terms of changing gameplay as little as practical is a Pyrrhic victory, since the only times it matters whether or not Navigation is a prerequisite for Magnetism are times when the player ends up stuck researching Navigation even though Magnetism has already given him its main benefits.

Nathan

[alexman]

Check out the thread in CDG.

Apparently, Firaxis is asking for complete and tested mods, which will be distributed with C3C. Should we submit this mod?

Deadline for submission is tomorrow at 11 am.

[Tassadar500]

Definatly! It would cause great publicity

[Dominae]

Yes, of course!

[alexman]

OK, I'll send a copy to Elucidus then.