AU207: Big Planet - Strategy, Spoilers and Comments - Page 2

nbarclay · March 21, 2003, 01:05

Dominae, you only think you ruined War Chariots' ability to be effective.

I'll wait until later to post screenshots, but as of 330 AD, Babylon is gone and Germany and the Zulus are down to a single city each. (Edit: Germany also has a couple island cities I didn't know about at the time of the peace talks.) Next up: a ROP with Japan to get in good striking range of America's heartland. After all, I still have 17 swordsmen, 20 horsemen, and 82 war chariots to use. (I'd have a lot more if impi weren't so good at killing WCs and horsemen.)

The down side is that I haven't done any serious research in centuries, so even after extorting the Germans and Zulus, I'm behind everyone but America in tech. (The reason America is my next target is that they're the only other civ on the continent that doesn't have Feudalism yet.) I also don't have a single library, aqueduct, marketplace, or harbor, although I've recently started on some.

This game is completely backward from how I normally play, focusing so heavily on the military and so little on economics. But it's been interesting.

Arrian · March 21, 2003, 10:02

I expect the Germans will fold like a house of cards when I hit them. I should have a lot of Knights when that happens. They are the weakest of the AI civs I know, partly because throughout the course of the game, I've traded tech for 2 of their workers. They are still in the ancient age at this point, and I think their iron is via trade, not local. That should be easy to disrupt.

The only credible threat I see is Mongolia. They have good land, and the Pyramids. Of course, that means they are the next target, once I've gutted Germany. I figure I'll rotate through clockwise (Germany, Mongols, America, Japan, Zulu).

-Arrian

minke19104 · March 21, 2003, 12:50

Arrian, are you going to upgrade these chariots to horsies?

Arrian · March 21, 2003, 13:14

WCs upgrade directly to Knights. I have mostly WCs, and some horsemen (during my GA, production is such that some towns can produce either a WC or a Horsie in the same number of turns. So I choose horsie in that case).

Therefore, what I'm looking at is upgrading ~50 WC's and some Horsemen to Knights. That means slightly over 2000 gold. I have ~1200 saved up.

I will switch to Monarchy as soon as my GA ends, because my military is getting pretty expensive, and because I intend to go on an extended campaign.

But that will have to wait a week, since I'm going on vacation. I won't be able to play again until the weekend after this one.

-Arrian

Konquest02 · March 21, 2003, 16:26

I played quite a while this afternoon and I am now in 1070 ad, in the mid medieval times (just researched astronomy)... Things have been quite eventful.

First, I nailed the Babs with swordmen. I boxed them in their little peninsula and then could expand much faster than them. When I reached IW, I was able to upgrade a couple (~10) swordmen and went after Babylon. Some turns later, they were down to a respawned city in the jungle and I was in possession of the Colossus in Babylon. Their decision to go after that wonder probably cost them their life because they could not pump as much military units as me...

When going after their last city, I got a leader when attacking with an archer. I turned him into an army of 2 swordmen (which were all that I had ready for the moment... probably a bad decision). It won a battle against a lone unprotected spearman but got down to 1 hp!! It then got defeated the next turn by a Bowman. Fortunately, I was able to build the Heroic Epic. Barely though...

As you may see in a previous post, I have a revenge to take on the Mongols... They provoked me in a war (see screenshot) and I allied with America to act as a buffer between Mongolia and me. Then, the turn before I would sign peace (my alliance would have expired on that turn), The Mongols ally with the Zulu and pledge for my destruction. Since I had just reached chivalry, I upgraded horsies to knights and went to hit the Zulus. I took 4 cities, including Zimbabwe and the Pyramids, before WW was after me. So I had to stop, only for a while... Those impis are sure hard to kill!! A knight without retreat ability is good, but not that great!

--Kon--

Konquest02 · March 21, 2003, 16:27

Sorry, forgot to post the screenshot!!

Arrian · March 21, 2003, 17:57

Go, Konquest, go!

COME GIT SUM, TEMUJIN!

Hmm, actually, the people who actually said things like that died rather horribly

-Arrian

Konquest02 · March 21, 2003, 18:51

Thanks Arrian!!

They are in fact on the other sid of the continent and I need to crush the Germans before the Mongols, so it might take a little while... I think I'll beeline for cavalry and take most of the Reich and relocate my capital in Berlin... What do you think? My FP is built and is located 4 tiles due south of Paris... With my new palace in Berlin, I will have a steady base to launch my attack on Mongolia with either cavalry or a beeline towards tanks...

I'm going at the restaurant with my g/f tonight, so no civ for me... But I'll sure think about it over supper!!

--Kon--

nbarclay · March 21, 2003, 21:55

Well, America turned out not to be the next civ I warred with after all. The Mongols had a warrior and archer wandering around behind my front lines, and they moved next to an undefended city that I couldn't bring defenders into in time. I politely asked them to leave, and they declared war!

Immediately, I killed the warrior and archer and bopped a settler with its swordsman escort. I then realized the Mongols had two cities south of their core that hadn't been hooked up as of my most recent map, so I took those (all the while prepositioning forces for my war with America). The Mongols didn't have any gold when peace talks came, so all I got from the peace talks was a map. But two cities (even totally corrupt ones) and six slaves at a cost of two war chariots killed and a few units injured isn't a bad trade.

I researched Engineering, but not in time to be the first to get it. That meant I had to throw in the better part of a hundred gold to get Feudalism in exchange for it from the Zulus and 320 gold to get Republic from Germany. Now I get to try fighting America as a Republic; I hope the war goes quickly.

BigDork · March 21, 2003, 22:40

Hi everybody....

Defeat!!! My first game on Monarch ever had ended in the fall of the Spanish civilization.

I had managed to pop 2 warriors from goodie huts so I was using them with the 2 I'd also made to explore. Well I had a conscript and a regular warrior down near Babylon when I saw a spearman and a settler headed out. I figured 2 on 1 so I went for it. No luck. Didn't even scratch the spearman. So on their turn outta the blackness comes a warrior headed right for my capitol. I quickly built a warrior to defend. And he dies!!! The RNG was not working for me at all.

So now I've lost Madrid and have 1 city left to the west next to the game or cattle or whatever. Well I refuse to beg for peace. I had lost my capitol and I was either gonna take it back or go down in flames. With my other regular warrior explorer I attack a wondering Bab warrior. Yep, he dies. And now the Babs have a veteran warrior. So with my last warrior, a conscript I rush him towards Madrid from the mountains to the north. Also I'd just finished a barracks and was starting my first Archer. I think the barracks may have been a bad idea. I probably should have used those shields to get out several units first and then build the barracks. Anyway, I knew the conscript was gonna die at Madrid but I had to try. Then it was over. 1 warrior against my 1 archer. I didn't manage to kill a single Bab unit.

Oh well.

I have a screenshot but my trial of Photoshop ran out and Adobe's website is having problems right now. Does anyone know another program like Photoshop I can download? Then you can see my crushing defeat in all of 9 minutes.

BigD

Dominae · March 21, 2003, 22:43

Oh no!

For your own sake, BigD, I hope no finds a replacement for Photoshop for you!

You must, of course, try again.

In my experience (2 games), the Spanish are pretty bad at Archer rushes. Just a thought.

Dominae

BigDork · March 21, 2003, 23:03

Dom...

What's really great is going into this I decided to play a relativly peaceful game. My last AU mods where far too bloody and I decided to give it a different angle. But the opertunity was there and I couldn't pass it up. So now I have a decision, give Spain another try or go for the Aztecs and punish all who oppose me. Decisions, decisions, decisions...

BigD

nbarclay · March 22, 2003, 01:10

I'm up to 520 AD now.

My war with America was a disaster. No sooner did I attack America than a Japanese spearman escorting a settler picked off one of my undefended Zulu cities in violation of a ROP agreement. So my forces found themselves trapped far behind the lines. Worse, Japan had Samurai and I didn't have Chivalry yet.

I captured Philadelphia, St. Louis, Detroit, Washington, and the remote city of Chicago in the first couple turns of the war. I quickly handed Philadelphia over to the Mongols so Japan couldn't capture it and move through quickly (at least without declaring war on my other main rival), and, not long after, handed Washington over to the Zulus (thereby teleporting my largest concentration of forces to my capital). St. Louis also went to the Zulus not long after, and as the Japanese advanced, I also handed Tugela along the Japanese border back to the Zulus and gave them the major ivory center of Leipzig and the former Mongol city of Choyr. Detroit held only because Japan was reluctant to challenge the three-swordsman army defending the city. And I lost over a third of my mobile forces during the conflict.

But the war did accomplish its primary purpose: it gave me a leader to rush Leonardo's Workshop. I'm too late to make much use of the Workshop against my main rivals in the knight era, but when the cavalry era comes, that will change.

Tech-wise, I just traded Invention for Monotheism and sold it for significant quantities of Mongolian and Japanese gold. The Mongols are ahead of me only by Chivalry, while Japan also has Theology (and possibly something beyond). Japan is also in its golden age; I just hope the Mongols don't decide to pull themselves into their GA by attacking me too. I'm well on my way to researching Gunpowder, and as much as I hate to do it, I'll need to trade it to stay in the tech race.

Nathan

badams52 · March 22, 2003, 15:19

Quote:

Originally posted by nbarclay
This game is completely backward from how I normally play, focusing so heavily on the military and so little on economics. But it's been interesting.

I wonder if this isn't the effect of a huge map. More cities to conquer = longer wars = less peace = less focus on economics.

I know for me, when I go to war, I usually have a set goal in mind what I want out of it which is usually most if not all of the rival civs cities. If my rival has more cities, my war lasts longer. WW doesn't usually stop me either. What?? My citizens are tired of war!?!

Well then, let's see how they like Monarchy instead!

That just seems wrong in so many ways...

BigDork · March 22, 2003, 16:20

Hi everybody...

Well I'm giving it another go. I decided to stay the Spanish. I thought about going militaristic and punishing everyone but decided against it. My lost 2 AU's were far too bloody.

Well I wussed out and stayed at Regent. I've decided that one more game at that level will probably do me good. I still have some to learn before I move up. Besides this is my first huge map game. I've done a few large maps but never a huge.

I've started out fairly well. I settled to the south first to block the Babs from getting too much territory. I managed to explore a lot of land with my warriors popping many a hut. Like last game I had an oppertunity to take out a Bab settler. But this time it was guarded by a warrior and I took them out. I fought a quick war and went for peace.

Well it's been a while since that war. The Babys keep trying to march settlers through my territory and I'm boxing them in with my units. I'm not quite ready to fight a war with them just yet. But soon.

The friggin' Mongols decided to declare war on me. The wanted contact the Babylon and I wasn't about to give in to their threats. I figured that since they were on the other side of the continent that it wasn't a big deal. Well then the went and got the Germans involved and now I have a little problem. Luckily I have a city at the choke-point and it's pretty heavily fortified. I had a small problem with a barbarian uprising and lost 2 settler to them. After that I rushed a few spearmen and horsies there to fight them off. I'm ready to teach the Germans a little leason I think. I also think I'm gonna finish off the Babys really quick. They only have a few cities and I have a bunch of horsemen ready to rush over the boarder.

And then it'll be back to the building phase. I plan on focusing on building up with small periods of war. Eventually I'm gonna clear off my continent and then focus either on culture or diplomatic victory. If all else fails I'll launch a space ship but I've done that the last 2 AU games. Also I've never won using UN and think I may just give it a try. And without bribing everyone the turn before too.

Grr....the damn Koreans(no offense to real Koreans out there

) They got the Great Library 1 turn before me. I hate them. Hate them, hate them, hate them. I plan on nuking them someday. "You remember 2000 years ago when you got the GL? Well, here's your payback." Yeah, that'd be great. Oh well, more later...

BigD

Konquest02 · March 22, 2003, 16:29

Quote:

Originally posted by BigDork

Grr....the damn Koreans(no offense to real Koreans out there

) They got the Great Library 1 turn before me. I hate them. Hate them, hate them, hate them. I plan on nuking them someday. "You remember 2000 years ago when you got the GL? Well, here's your payback." Yeah, that'd be great. Oh well, more later...

BigD

As Dominae taught me: "You want a piece of me !?!" Rinse and repeat. You'll feel much better.

I got the same thing with the Mongols and I am forming plans to avenge my 267 shield loss...

Re Barbs uprisings: Each civs gets his own barb camp, but I got two!! The Zulus' camp spawned on my part of the territory... It was 3 tiles from their cities, but they were separated by the detroit... I hate those barbs!! You'll see in red are Zulus' barbs and in green are injured units coming back from fighting my barbs... I was really angry when I saw that second uprising...

--Kon--

CerberusIV · March 22, 2003, 17:11

I haven't got that far. I managed to block the NW chokepoint with a city but no sign of the Germans yet. I decided to let the Zulus slog through the mountains whilst I swordrush the Babs (4 cities).

Dominae - why are there whales off the E coast but it is not possible to found a city close enough to exploit them? Did you paint in a few extra mountains?

nbarclay · March 22, 2003, 22:00

Quote:

Originally posted by badams52

I wonder if this isn't the effect of a huge map. More cities to conquer = longer wars = less peace = less focus on economics.

The strangeness of my game came from two things.

(1) Thanks to getting Pottery popping the hut in the opening turn, I researched both Mysticism and Polytheism on a 40-turn basis. That was probably okay for Mysticism, but I suspect that I should have pushed Polytheism harder in order to be able to trade it. (I'm not used to huge-map research rates, so it's hard to figure out how growth will affect research rates when a tech starts off with a 40-turn time estimate.) In any case, I was left with very little tech trading power, and that put me in a trap where a research-oriented game wouldn't work nearly as well as it would normally.

(2) The War Chariot is a pretty awesome UU - a horseman at two thirds the cost when terrain can be made to cooperate. Even against Zulus, the cost/power situation is the same as with archers vs. spearmen but the movement rate is a lot faster (although I used swordsmen for a good bit of my punch on that front). With plenty of swordsmen and workers to punch through difficult terrain, my force of swordsmen, WCs, and horsemen (from cities that could build horsemen as fast as WCs) was able to do some serious romping, and I figured that I could catch up in tech later.

nbarclay · March 22, 2003, 22:07

The map generator doesn't guarantee that the land tile you'd need to use to take advantage of whales won't be a mountain. Such situations are not something that implies manipulation of the map.

BigDork · March 22, 2003, 23:47

Kon...

Yeah, I understand the lost shields. I ended up settling for a regular library instead. I couldn't even build a different wonder. Really ticked me off.

I too ended up with 2 barb camps uprising. One near the Zulu chokepoint the other on the German side of the other chokepoint. Some of the barbs headed for the Germans but not enough. I was trying to get settlers up to the spices up there and both got taken. That really made me mad. I'm blaming the Koreans for that too.

BigD

Theseus · March 23, 2003, 02:19

Posting this without reading the above (yet)...

What a blast!! My poor computer is struggling at 1000AD, but a great game so far.

Damn, it's a big world! Not used to this at all, so mission accomplished from a learning framework perspective.

Carthage rocks.

I'll catch up on this spoiler thread tomorrow... I've got some nice tidbits to relate, like "The Care and Feeding of Neigboring Civs Redux"... MWAHAHAHA!!

CerberusIV · March 23, 2003, 12:53

This has certainly been an interesting way to get to grips with a large map. The Germans went north and east so the area NW of my cities stayed unoccupied. I finally completed swordrushing the Babs but it was a rather bloody affair - several elite swords lost and no leaders so I have to build my FP the hard way.

It is now 450AD. I have just switched to Republic and am consolidating. The Babs respawned in the vacant area so I will move in a few settlers whilst researching Chivalry. By that stage I should have my FP up and be able to sweep the Babs, Germans and Zulus. The Mongols will be the big test as they my strongest rivals.

Hard work but interesting.

CerberusIV · March 23, 2003, 12:59

I too had a problem with a barb uprising. They started SE of Rouen but moved through the mountains towards Besancon. Most of my units were in the south fighting Babs. ONE conscript barb horseman took out a single vet spearman defending Besancon, despite the defender being fortified in a town on a hill and didn't lose a single HP. Worse still, Besancon was only a few turns from completing a temple. Eventually I rushed a temple under republic which has squeezed Intombe.

This is at Regent (I dropped down from Monarch as I haven't played a full game of AU before).

badams52 · March 23, 2003, 15:37

one interesting common theme I've noticed here is that you all are wiping out the babs forcing them to respawn. I don't think I've ever forces a civ to respawn before.

Which makes me think, wouldn't you love to be able to respawn if you are wiped out by the AI too early?

Konquest02 · March 23, 2003, 16:26

I think this game shall be known as the "Game of the Stolen Wonders"

Remember from an earlier post that the Mongols stole MY GL by only 2 turns. Well, the same pattern repeated. The Koreans stole MY JS Bach's Cathedral by 4 turns!!! They just clinched the number two spot on my most hated civ, #1 being the Mongols as they are easier to reach.

I just attacked the Germans to 1: relocate my palace to Berlin and 2: clear the way for my invasion of Mongolia.

I have met the other continent but I will wait a little bit before telling what happened here, not to spoil the early game of those who are less advanced than me.

More to come later!!

--Kon--

Fosse · March 23, 2003, 21:01

I've managed to get a few days of this game in finally... and what I've learned more than anything is I NEED TO ACTUALLY DO THE THINGS I KNOW I NEED TO DO!!!

I'll explain that as I go along.

I chose France, for the traits and a later GA than Carthage. Plus, I wanted to give the Au musketeers a shot before they got put back to the old way.

I plant my settler where he starts and get 25 gold from the hut, and start my expansion.
I decide to go for the Great Library, so I start a 40 turn research on writing.

My first warrior heads north to check out the mountains, my second goes south to meet Babylon in about 3350 BC. I trade them my alphabet and masonry for ceremonial burial and bronze working.

My second city is south, by the cow, and it becomes my settler pump. At that point I build a temple and barracks in Paris, and then start pumping out vet warriors to eventually wipe out Babylon.

First thing I knew I should have done...
REX better. I had one settler pump only, supplemented by a few settlers from random cities. I knew better, especially on such a large map with so many cities before OCN is hit.

I pay Babs some gold for pottery just before meeting the Zulu.. I sell masonry for warrior code.

I start building a palace in Lyons for my eventual Great Library, and I buy iron from the Zulu (who I think are on a seprate landmass at this point, because the warrior I had up north came home to quell disorder). I upgrade 8 vet warriors and start south to Babylon in 690BC.

By now I have met Germany, and had my contact traded around to the rest of the world. 1 turn before I finish researching literature I hear the Mongols are building the Great Library. Next turn, there's nobody to sell it to.

My swords make quick work of Babylon, exiling their leader to a city in the western jungles before I get peace. I build the Great Library, and on the next turn learn Polytheism, math, horseback riding, Code of laws and philosophy. I trade these around for gold and maps, so now the world is revealed to me.

Fosse · March 23, 2003, 21:24

2nd thing I knew better, but did anyway

I didn't have nearly enough workers. Whenever I have an industrial civ, I tend to have one for the first three cities...and then never build another until I realize how desperate the situation is. I had about eight from the Babylonian war after I exterminated their last city, but still. There is no excuse for such a small worker force as the one I had around 400 BC.. .only about four natives and eight foreign... this for about ten cities, and growing all the time.

I also realize that I'm not REXing enough. So I start another round of hard core expansion, aided by the Pyramids which Babylon built THE TURN BEFORE I took their original captial.

In 350 BC I get a barbarian uprising that lays waste to a few unguarded settlers in the northwest. I turn the Babylonian forces on the barbs... whom I hate. Even before the uprising, they had managed (along with the RNG) to kill about six of my exploring warriors. Very frustrating.

After the uprising is quelled, I turn to building. Marketplaces start going up everywhere (the GL just taught me how), and I discover Republic in 210 BC. Four turns later, the French republic is born. I want to be peaceful for a while (Zulu land looks terrible, and Germany and I are both still dropping settlers in the western jungles), so I'm signing ROPs all around.

Around the time I discover Chivalry (reserached myself), I notice how painfully small my horse army is, meaning few upgrades. I MUST learn to build my military.

At one point Mongolia declares war, and I don't worry as they are so far away... and I've decided to use my small but trusty knight army to take out Germany. I buy Japan into the war, and begin. If only I'd built up that military.... The jungle cities fall no problem, but Germany troops stop me in the hilly land at the new northern part of my empire... my republic's citizens eventually force me to go for peace.

I'm in a race for the Sistine when two things happen in one turn: The GL discovers Education, and the Ottomans build Sistine. First time somebody not on my continent builds any wonder.

In 940 Japan demands economics, but Smith's isn't close to done yet and I want it badly. Samuri don't fall to my knights, and I have to buy the rest of the contient in to prevent losing the old Germany cities. Thank God those Musketeers were ablet to get to the front lines quickly. After a while War weariness is kicking my butt, plus Japan just build a few cavalry, I bail on the alliances and declare peace.

I am able afterwards to buy navigation from another civ, but not before they discover the eastern world and trade my com around. I do manage to discover the Vikings, and in 1050 I whored economics for BIG gpt and some luxuries, 1 turn before finishing Smiths.

That's where I am now.

COMMENTS
I may never finish this game or even play enough for another AAR, at least not for a few weeks... so this might be it from me.

Knowing something isn't the same as doing it... I knew I'd have to REX like mad and build a military.... but I didn't. I always get distracted with libararies or little projects. Must force myself to play what I know will win.

The map is nice... the chokepoints and rugged terrain are great.

No Killer AIs on either contient. Mongolia is definatly dominant on mine, and the Ottomans on the other... but no HUGE edges for the AIs.

Interesting geography, and REALLY rugged terrain. I liked the chokepoints. The luxury trade on the home contient was pretty small... though I LOVED discovering the land of Incense in Scandanvia. Having the world supply in one Civ was a GREAT idea. I have all kinds of greedy plans to "colonialize" that island and make a killing in the luxury trade.

Scandanavia, other than the incense, is kind of wasted. With nobody to trade with they were in the early part of the ancient era for WAY to long. I traded them Monarchy for incense around 1000 AD. I felt bad, as the Berserker will never get its window of opportunity... enormous as that window is.

Thanks for putting the work into this Dom.

Mountain Sage · March 24, 2003, 08:34

Quote:

Originally posted by badams52

I wonder if this isn't the effect of a huge map. More cities to conquer = longer wars = less peace = less focus on economics.

That just seems wrong in so many ways...

Nope,

You can still play it peacefully and focus on economics. I had to destroy 2 civs in the process, but that was an unfortunate concur of circumstances

I'll do my posting tomorrow.
Cheer up! BTW, what civ do you play?

badams52 · March 24, 2003, 13:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Nope,

You can still play it peacefully and focus on economics. I had to destroy 2 civs in the process, but that was an unfortunate concur of circumstances

I'll do my posting tomorrow.
Cheer up! BTW, what civ do you play?

The "that just seems wrong in so many ways" wording was referring to being in a republic in a war till my citizens become very unhappy, then switching to monarchy. Like in real life a country like America can switch from a republic to monarchy and all of the sudden everyone who hated the war now doesn't care about the war.

Maybe you could make a statement for being in a police state, but it simply isn't very realistic.

Oh, and I'm not playing this round, just sitting in the peanut gallery making comments every now and then to increace my...uh

...understanding and everyone elses of the differences in the huge map game.

Yahweh Sabaoth · March 24, 2003, 16:45

Oy vey!

This Spoiler thread has come along quite quickly... but thankfully, it hasn't exposed much that I didn't already know.

Well, I too being a wussy, am playing as Regent, and furthermore, as the Carthaginians. I am coming to the end of my GA, having used a NM to defend myself from a German onslaught.

No screenshots yet, I'm so sorry... but envision my Northern frontiers as the Ithsmus where Zululand ends and the area near all the spice in the jungle south of Germany.

The city I built here is where I held off the Germans... took a considerable number of troops, but in the meantime, I'm well on my way to having Sun Tzu's, Leo's and the Sistine.

I've been living in peace with the Babs, using them to deflect enemy attacks. They have no cities of worth aside from their capitol after all, so it'll be no sweat to wipe them out later.

The only thing I'm worried about in terms of UP are the Mongols... Germany's a little too big to take out right now... I'll probably do Zululand, Japan, and America, and then Germany. But those Mongols already have over 30 cities... ALL BUILT BY THEM!!! Not to mention half of America!!! Holy crud!!!

Well, screenshots coming soon... I promise... and one last thing, Dominae, you might have been trying to be "evil" on us with the 2 ithsmuses and the mountains, but you gaev us plenty of luxuries to start out with... I'm not worried.

Haven't gotten to gunpowder yet though...