Early armies

ToeTruck · March 19, 2003, 18:23

So, I have played Civ3 since it's initial release, but until yesterday, I had never built an army.

Why? Because I have found the best warmonger strategy to be an all out swarm. You know the kind, lots of cheap early units. Plus, when I do get a Leader, there's almost alway a good Wonder to build.

Or, I just play builder, but that's another story.

Yesterday, however, I got myself a leader playing the Chinese and the only available Wonder was the Great Lighthouse. Erggh. I was playing on one big continent, so I decided to build an army. Two Swordsmen (one vet and one elite+) and one vet Spearman.

My questions are:

1) What are good army mixes in the early game? The choices for combined arms at this stage are rather limited.

2) What are the pros/cons of including the Elite unit that generated the Leader in the army?

3) How are the total army stats calculated? My army was identified as 13/13, but the combined att/def was only 7/6. I haven't thought about it much, but that doesn't make sense to me.

Incidentally, this game is on Emperor, standard map, raging barbs.

- TT

vmxa1 · March 19, 2003, 21:30

Quote:

Originally posted by ToeTruck
1) What are good army mixes in the early game? The choices for combined arms at this stage are rather limited.
2) What are the pros/cons of including the Elite unit that generated the Leader in the army?

3) How are the total army stats calculated? My army was identified as 13/13, but the combined att/def was only 7/6. I haven't thought about it much, but that doesn't make sense to me.

Incidentally, this game is on Emperor, standard map, raging barbs.

IMO the purpose of a very early army is to win a battle and let me build the Epic. To that end any units will do as I will not commit the army to a battle it can not win.
As to elites, the only two times I would use an elite is if it had already made a leader or late in teh game when I have them by the tons. I love to stick the unit tha tmade the leader in the army (unless it canbe upgraded soon). Those extra HP's are great.
The 13/13 is the HP, so if any vets in the army get promoted you will gain another HP.

ToeTruck · March 19, 2003, 21:38

Thanks, I figured out the HP stuff. Not quite sure where my head was on that one.

I understand that an army cannot produce a leader, yet the units within the army can be promoted. Is that true?

Also, is there any way to unload units from an army? I seem to remember some goofy way of doing so that involoved a recently conquered city or something. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

- TT

AlecTrevylan00 · March 19, 2003, 22:37

I added an extra hit point to elite units. Its wonderful....those armies of one elite and 2 or 3 veterans to start, then they upgrade to Elite in the army

Verto · March 20, 2003, 00:08

EDIT: I stand corrected.

vmxa1 · March 20, 2003, 01:28

Quote:

Originally posted by ToeTruck
Also, is there any way to unload units from an army? I seem to remember some goofy way of doing so that involoved a recently conquered city or something. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

- TT

There were reports that you could unload from an army in a port after one of the patches cam eout. I never tried it and I think it was fixed.

Wittlich · March 20, 2003, 10:43

Yes, it has been fixed.

Willem · March 20, 2003, 12:44

Quote:

Originally posted by ToeTruck
I was playing on one big continent, so I decided to build an army. Two Swordsmen (one vet and one elite+) and one vet Spearman.

It doesn't make any sense to throw that Spearman in it. It has the same defence value as a Swordsman, but lacks the offensive ability. You'd be better off with all Swordsman.

ToeTruck · March 20, 2003, 21:58

Yea, the Spearman was more a move of habit and convenience.

Habit-wise, I have grown use to warring with Spearmen mixed in with other units. Archers and Spearmen are an obvious mix, but even after I've researched Iron Working, I like to throw them in with Swordsmen. They're cheaper and they defend first. I mean, why spend 30 shield for a Swordsman that will probably be rendered offensively useless in the first enemy attack?

Convenience-wise, because of the above tendency, I had two Swordsmen and a Spearman handy. The closest Swordsman was 6 turns away.

So that's what I did.

Worked out great, too, except that regaining hit points seems a little slow. I haven't paid that much attention, but it seems that separate units heal more quickly than an army composed of those units. Does that sound right to all you army users out there?

- TT

ToeTruck · March 20, 2003, 22:08

One more thing:

I hate it when the combat engine chooses my Elite Swordsman to defend. If I have a stack of three Swordsman (Elite and 2 Vet) being attacked by an Archer, the Elite could easily lose two or three HP. I'm left attacking with 2 Vet Swordsmen while the Elite Sword rests.

If the stack instead consists of 1 Elite Sword, 1 Vet Sword, and 1 Vet Spearman, no matter what happens to the Spearman, my attack will have an Elite in it.

You want to make sure your offensive units don't lose HP defending and vice-versa. I thought that armies might work the same way. Evidently not.

- TT

Willem · March 21, 2003, 01:18

Quote:

Originally posted by ToeTruck
I haven't paid that much attention, but it seems that separate units heal more quickly than an army composed of those units. Does that sound right to all you army users out there?

- TT

Yep. Keep in mind that you have alot more hit points to recover. The army acts as one unit in that way.

Spec · March 21, 2003, 12:40

Quote:

Originally posted by ToeTruck
My questions are:

1) What are good army mixes in the early game? The choices for combined arms at this stage are rather limited.

Usualy 2 offensive units and 1 defensive. Most likely the defensive units will finish off the enemy if he's no already dead.

Quote:

2) What are the pros/cons of including the Elite unit that generated the Leader in the army?

Not much, just more HP in the army. But if you keep the Elite unit out of it, it has a chance of making another leader in a battle, not if he's in an army.

Quote:

3) How are the total army stats calculated? My army was identified as 13/13, but the combined att/def was only 7/6. I haven't thought about it much, but that doesn't make sense to me.

I dont think that the stats change. You may see 7/6 but just try to kill and infantry with an army of Cavalry, you will probably not succeed. 3 cavalries in an army have 18 of offence and an infantry has 8 of defence. Yet I lost an army more that once in these situations.

Spec.

Jaybe · March 21, 2003, 13:44

Quote:

Originally posted by ToeTruck
One more thing:

I hate it when the combat engine chooses my Elite Swordsman to defend. If I have a stack of three Swordsman (Elite and 2 Vet) being attacked by an Archer, the Elite could easily lose two or three HP. I'm left attacking with 2 Vet Swordsmen while the Elite Sword rests. ...

TT,
You might well have already been aware of this, but just in case...

Strongest Defender defends. If multiple units are of equal defense then a "defense type" (e.g., spear) defends. 2DP x 5HP (elite sword) is greater than 2DP x 4HP (vet spear).

BTW, according to Firaxis, given 2 naval units, a transport or carrier will not defend first given an escort of equal strength. But watch those Hit Points -- it could force it to defend before the escort!

VJ · March 22, 2003, 07:22

Try to get early elite with Warrior, then go 3 reg/archer, when you should have about 3 cities.

Theseus · March 22, 2003, 09:41

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=46197

bongo · March 24, 2003, 09:22

Re: Armies and healing. Willem is right, your army heals like one unit. Units in the open heals 1 HP/turn, in cities without barracks 2 HP/turn and in cities with barracks 4 HP/turn. In worst case, a 1/20HP army will need 5 turns in a city with barrack to heal fully.

Sava · March 24, 2003, 11:57

Armies only tend to be useful in attacking a heavily fortified city which single units just can't beat. Not only do I plan on winning a battle, I plan for not losing my units. I'm not a fan of human wave style attacks on cities in order to take a city at all costs. I'm much more patient, and don't mind digging in and starving a city into submission.

ToeTruck · March 24, 2003, 21:08

Ooh, I definitely don't like digging in. Crush the forces, raze the city, and move on. Yea, I believe in resource deprivation, but I like to keep the road network intact for replacements. I also tend to keep a couple of workers with my attack force as well.

- TT

Sava · March 25, 2003, 10:22

If you are engaged in a massive war, armies are also useful in defensive roles when the AI throws like 20 units at a single city.

Dominae · March 25, 2003, 11:54

ToeTruck, check out Theseus' link. It points to the most extensive discussion on Armies found in Apolyton.

I'll throw in a small comment though: without ever building an Army, you never get to build the Heroic Epic, and therefore you get fewer Great Leaders. If you're warmongering a lot, there is a noticeable difference.

Dominae

Sava · March 25, 2003, 12:56

And leaders are useful in hurrying wonders... not just kicking ass.