Coalition grows. Old Europe still pouting.

[monolith94]

That list reads like the complete run-down of America's *****es....

[DarthVeda]

and?

[monolith94]

I just found it interesting...

I mean - of course afghanistan is going to support us! We still kind of have troops there, don't we?

[DarthVeda]

We have troops in Germany and they're not supporting us...

[monolith94]

Yeah, but those Germans are treadin on thin thin ice!

Vanilla Ice!

[Az]

What exactly would you call "rate of change"?

Growth of GDP? Rise of productivity?

Big deal, some third world countries are doing much better.

These third world countries are nowhere as near the technological level, but in any case, I meant something else. the US has changed its' culture in relation to the changing climate in the world, while preserving the core issues, and values. It has weathered time very nicely. It also has solved the problem that many european countries have, the decline in population, and their replacement.

As for the "head start", history has amply shown that head starts don't guarantee anything.

it ensures strong existance for quite a while, and I don't see any competitors right now. China could do it, but it has a long way to go to become a fullfledged superpower.

[Asmodean]

Denmark has now become the fourth country to actively participate in the war on the coalition side. The Danish parliament voted yesterday to send one submarine and one corvette to be placed under U.S. command (the submarine is already in place in the Gulf, the corvette will arrive in about a week). That we are not sending more is attributed to the fact that a vast majority of Danes are against the war.

There was talk of us sending our Navy Seals and Army Hunter Force (elite crack troops, considered by many to be among the finest in the world), but in the end we are sending only two naval vessels.

Oh well...it's better than nothing, off course.

Asmodean

[Drake Tungsten]

Oh well...it's better than nothing, off course.

Yes it is. Thanks for the support; we appreciate it.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Asmodean
Denmark has now become the fourth country to actively participate in the war on the coalition side. The Danish parliament voted yesterday to send one submarine and one corvette to be placed under U.S. command (the submarine is already in place in the Gulf, the corvette will arrive in about a week). That we are not sending more is attributed to the fact that a vast majority of Danes are against the war.

There was talk of us sending our Navy Seals and Army Hunter Force (elite crack troops, considered by many to be among the finest in the world), but in the end we are sending only two naval vessels.

Oh well...it's better than nothing, off course.

Asmodean

Are your peoples' anti-war arguements as rediculous as most of ours? I guess it doesnt matter... the war is underway.

The active support is much appreciated

[Asmodean]

The protests in my country are mostly centred around "innocent civilians are getting killed" or "war is a bad thing" kind of arguments. There are not widespread demonstrations, but the general mood in the Danish population is one of "why is this happening". And a fair amount of people are thinking that removing Saddam from power is OK, but they wish that it was the U.N. doing it, not the U.S.

Asmodean

[Lincoln]

Do these peaceniks ever consider the "innocent people being killed" by Saddam? Or can they not think about two things at the same time?

[Lincoln]

This reminds me of a certain woman yesterday in Iraq who complained to the liberating troops that they were too late to save her. Saddam's henchmen had her son killed the day before. I suppose his life and the lives of hundreds of his countrymen that are snuffed out by the dictator Saddam are of no importance to those who have a one track mind of hatred toward anything that the United States does. The peacniks are morally corrupt inspite of their high-sounding rhetoric.

[Asmodean]

Originally posted by Lincoln
Do these peaceniks ever consider the "innocent people being killed" by Saddam? Or can they not think about two things at the same time?

My guess is that these people just don't live in the real world. There are clearly other things to deal with and care of, when you live in another dimension.

Asmodean

[ranskaldan]

My guess is that these people just don't live in the real world. There are clearly other things to deal with and care of, when you live in another dimension.

This reminds me of a certain woman yesterday in Iraq who complained to the liberating troops that they were too late to save her. Saddam's henchmen had her son killed the day before. I suppose his life and the lives of hundreds of his countrymen that are snuffed out by the dictator Saddam are of no importance to those who have a one track mind of hatred toward anything that the United States does. The peacniks are morally corrupt inspite of their high-sounding rhetoric.

You people still don't get it, do you?

Liberating Iraq has nice side-effects, but we do not believe that this is the reason why America is doing it.

The world has seen how the US has treated the world with utter contempt in the past two years. If you want to do a spin on "liberating another country", at least make sure that the rest of the world can look back at the events of the past two years and say, "Yes, indeed, they do have a track record of caring about the rest of the world."

Unfortunately, you don't. This is why more and more people are arriving at the conclusion that America is not doing this out of compassion - you are doing this out of ambition. After all, that's exactly what your track record of the past two years tell us. It is just as well that the people of Iraq might benefit from this; but if the ulterior motive is not compassion, then we cannot compliment America on its "compassion". We can only fear it for its ambition.

The US has messed up its PR campaign very badly. Instead of sitting around complaining that it's somehow the fault of the rest of the world, why don't you sit down and think about exactly how the support after 911 was squandered in less than a year?

[Asmodean]

Originally posted by ranskaldan



You people still don't get it, do you?

Liberating Iraq has nice side-effects, but we do not believe that this is the reason why America is doing it.

The world has seen how the US has treated the world with utter contempt in the past two years. If you want to do a spin on "liberating another country", at least make sure that the rest of the world can look back at the events of the past two years and say, "Yes, indeed, they do have a track record of caring about the rest of the world."

Unfortunately, you don't. This is why more and more people are arriving at the conclusion that America is not doing this out of compassion - you are doing this out of ambition. After all, that's exactly what your track record of the past two years tell us. It is just as well that the people of Iraq might benefit from this; but if the ulterior motive is not compassion, then we cannot compliment America on its "compassion". We can only fear it for its ambition.

The US has messed up its PR campaign very badly. Instead of sitting around complaining that it's somehow the fault of the rest of the world, why don't you sit down and think about exactly how the support after 911 was squandered in less than a year?

So there are added benefits...so what???

Added benefit number one: The U.S. establishing a powerbase in the Arab world. While that might be nice from a strategic point og view, it's not really going to happen. Why? Because the Arabs are just too different from the Americans. Even in Kuwait, voices can be heard against Kuwaits close attachments to the U.S.

Added benefit number two: OIL. Oh please...you don't really think that, do you? While the Iraqi oil reserves are indeed large, the U.S. would never, ever steal oil from a foreign country, not even frim Iraq. Not to mention the fact that Russia have major contracts on oil development in Iraq. And that is a can of worms that even Bush doesn't want to open.

Added benfit number three. Disarmament. Sure that wil happen, and the world will be a better place for it.

So don't you think that you are just a little blue-eyed?

Asmodean

[germanos]

18:24 (17:24 GMT)

Dutch minister of defense disapproves the appearance of a Dutch liason-officer in the press conference of CentCom earlier today.
The Netherlands 'are not and will not be involved in militairy operations in Iraq'.
The liason officer apparently is in Qatar in relation to the Dutch Patriot batteries deployed in Diyarbakir (Turkey)

Source: Minister of Defense speaking on national Radio.

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by germanos
18:24 (17:24 GMT)

Dutch minister of defense disapproves the appearance of a Dutch liason-officer in the press conference of CentCom earlier today.
The Netherlands 'are not and will not be involved in militairy operations in Iraq'.
The liason officer apparently is in Qatar in relation to the Dutch Patriot batteries deployed in Diyarbakir (Turkey)

Source: Minister of Defense speaking on national Radio.

Showing that liason-officer was a bad PR move. The Dutch government was not informed about this stunt. Something tells me this can't be a good thing for the public status of our prime minister Balkenende.

[Willem]

Hell of a coalition when most of the members are afraid of admitting they're part of it.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Asmodean


So there are added benefits...so what???

Added benefit number one: The U.S. establishing a powerbase in the Arab world. While that might be nice from a strategic point og view, it's not really going to happen. Why? Because the Arabs are just too different from the Americans. Even in Kuwait, voices can be heard against Kuwaits close attachments to the U.S.

So? The Kuwaiti government has been aiding the U.S. as far as possible - while running the risk of being alienated by neighbours and its own people.

The U.S. needs more countries like that. Unfortunately, at the rate you're going, you will lose the ones you already have. And that is not good for your country, nor for the Pax Americana.

Added benefit number two: OIL. Oh please...you don't really think that, do you? While the Iraqi oil reserves are indeed large, the U.S. would never, ever steal oil from a foreign country, not even frim Iraq. Not to mention the fact that Russia have major contracts on oil development in Iraq. And that is a can of worms that even Bush doesn't want to open.

While I do not necessarily believe that America is going in for the oil, I think you're naive in thinking that America is an angelic, compassionate entity devoted to the betterment of the world.

Like all countries, America is selfish. In the past, the US has been careful in maintaining a working relationship with the rest of the world, by actually listening to other countries, now and then. This, unfortunately, is no longer the case.

The image of the U.S. has severely worsened in the eyes of the world in the past two years. And you should open your eyes and see this, even if only to preserve the continued dominance of your own country.

Added benfit number three. Disarmament. Sure that wil happen, and the world will be a better place for it.

Granted.
Once you start doing something about North Korea too, that is.

So don't you think that you are just a little blue-eyed?

Tell that to the rest of the world, who has been witnessing nothing but American arrogance and unilateralism for the past two years.

Don't you see? The world doesn't trust America any more. And this loss of trust isn't just because of Iraq either.

It's in your interest to preserve the Pax Americana - and ours too, in fact. So open your eyes to what is happening. You can't lead the world if the world doesn't like you. No superpower can withstand the combined resentment of the world.

Hell of a coalition when most of the members are afraid of admitting they're part of it.

[Zero]

Self interest governs all. It's nothing new.

[Traianvs]

Naturally, that's what politics are all about... Obviously Lincoln truly thinks Bush is such a great man that cares about the Iraqis.. Well bollox galore! he don't give a **** bout the palestinians either, to name an example (among the thousands of other examples....)


Does Bush interfere in Africa? Why doesn't he go solve a few wars over there and make those countries settle down and have a solid government? Because he's got nothing there that will benefit him... I think this is pretty obvious but certain people here are just brainwashed or something

[Traianvs]

13% of the Americans can point Iraq on a map..

How lame is that?

[Lincoln]

Yea! Belgium doesn't care about it's own self interest. They are the only nation on earth that doesn't.

If all of us "brainwashed" Americans could just be like Europe and care about the poor and needy people of the world then the world would be a better place.

Too bad we are feeding the people of Iraq and lifting a decade of sanctions. But brainwashed people have a tendency to do those things I guess. There must be some ulterior motive here someplace. Oh yea! -- Bush is just trying to pretend that he is a nice guy so people will like him. What an evil man he must be. He must be a part of some vast right wing conspiracy to take over the world and make everyone Americans. Yea, that's it...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Lincoln
Do these peaceniks ever consider the "innocent people being killed" by Saddam? Or can they not think about two things at the same time?

Some of us who do not agree with the current military operation have opposed Saddam since the very beginning. We were at university with people who were on Saddam's assassination list, who risked their lives to march openly in opposition to his rule in Iraq.

Of course, that's when Saddam was good for business- when the United States, France, Great Britain and other western nations could sell him military equipment, help build the Osirak reactor, and all this when Saddam was still killing innocent civilians, his sons-in-law, Iranians, Shi'ites, Kurds...

I can think of all these things when being informed by pliant media outlets of what a monster Saddam is, and how right it is that Iraq be liberated. But what I wonder is, if we have known what a murderous tyrant he is for such a long time (and we have), then why was something not done about it sooner?

Because it wasn't good for business.

Same deal with grotesque regimes like Ceaucescu's Romania- western nations cuddled up to the 'friendly' Warsaw Pact dictator for business, and because it was thought he could be a chink in the Pact's armour. Too bad about the Securitate, and those murdered inhabitants of Timisoara, bulldozed villages, etc, etc.

Same deal with the various Central American/South American despots and tinpot tyrants- Castillo Armas, Anastasio Somoza, Trujillo, Pinochet- doesn't matter how many 'innocent civilians' they kill, so long as it's good for business then they're o.k.

Same deal with the dictators in Africa- Mobutu sucking up millions in American aid, his country operating as a C.I.A. base, providing escape routes for the guerilla forces of Jonas Savimbi- another western stooge.

It doesn't matter how many 'innocent civilians' are killed, how many landmines sown, how many nuns murdered, how many infants die of malnutrition- as long as it's good for business, then money is the fifth horseman.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Lincoln
Too bad we are feeding the people of Iraq and lifting a decade of sanctions.

Maybe if your government hadn't betrayed the Iraqis in 91 when they tried to rise up against Saddam, they wouldn't have had to live under sanctions. Why are you so magnanimous now? Oh right, there's an oilman in the Whitehouse.

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by molly bloom


...Of course, that's when Saddam was good for business- when the United States, France, Great Britain and other western nations could sell him military equipment, help build the Osirak reactor, and all this when Saddam was still killing innocent civilians, his sons-in-law, Iranians, Shi'ites, Kurds...

...It doesn't matter how many 'innocent civilians' are killed, how many landmines sown, how many nuns murdered, how many infants die of malnutrition- as long as it's good for business, then money is the fifth horseman.

Yes, business does drive America and most of the rest of the world. That is really unfortunate but that is reality regardless of what compassionate people think about it. I do not believe that the US is motivated by compassion when it invades Iraq. But I do think that they are fortunate that it is the US and Britain invading and not a country like China. I think it was Winston Chruchill that reminded us to be magnamous in victory. There could certianly be a worse super power.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Lincoln


Yes, business does drive America and most of the rest of the world. That is really unfortunate but that is reality regardless of what compassionate people think about it. I do not believe that the US is motivated by compassion when it invades Iraq. But I do think that they are fortunate that it is the US and Britain invading and not a country like China. I think it was Winston Chruchill that reminded us to be magnamous in victory. There could certianly be a worse super power.

I am sure all those people who have died at the hands of regimes such as Duvalier's, Trujillo's, Pinochet's and Mobutu's have been very grateful that it was the United States supporting those dictators, and not China. Heaven knows what fiendish oriental ways of death the Chinese might have thought up...

[Lincoln]

I think you would hate the United States no matter what we do ever. In the eyes of people like you we are just plain evil. To each his own. Every nation has a sordid history. There is really little point in envy. We are made up of good and bad people but I happen to know that most Americans are not evil people who want to dominate the world. But some people only see one side of America. That will never change. So, join the hate America club. I guess misery loves company.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Lincoln
I think you would hate the United States no matter what we do ever. In the eyes of people like you we are just plain evil. To each his own. Every nation has a sordid history. There is really little point in envy. We are made up of good and bad people but I happen to know that most Americans are not evil people who want to dominate the world. But some people only see one side of America. That will never change. So, join the hate America club. I guess misery loves company.

Oh lor' luv a duck an' lawks a mercy, guv'nor, you are a smooth talkin' Yanqui, an' no mistake!

Me so horny, me love you long time....

Leaving aside the small matter of your being unable to read my mind, I have shown my love for various American creations and artists and places time and again, in various other threads- so don't bother with the predictable, petulant footstomping, it just won't wash.

George 'Mini' Bush is not America, neither is his cabinet, nor the Republican Party. Simply because I disagree with the professed reasons/reasoning behind this war does not make me any more anti-American than it makes me pro-Saddam. But then, when all else fails an ad hominem attack is always an easy reach, I suppose...

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Willem


Maybe if your government hadn't betrayed the Iraqis in 91 when they tried to rise up against Saddam, they wouldn't have had to live under sanctions. Why are you so magnanimous now? Oh right, there's an oilman in the Whitehouse.

Yes we left them hanging but now we are making up for this mistake.

And don't blame sanctions on the US (other countries are doing sanctions, not just the US by they way), blame them on Saddam who built many multi-billion dollar palaces instead of feeding his people.