The Star Wars vs Star Trek Thread; because it's been awhile. - Page 11

Urban Ranger · March 30, 2003, 00:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
How does that affect the argument? Considering that the industrial, speed and power advantages of the Empire can only be answered either with deus ex machinae ("Q will save us!") or pitiful responses like "We have the Picard maneuver," I hardly think it is our side that is desperate.

What speed and power advantages?

You have never been fully able to counter my argument that Imperial ships cannot fight at FTL speeds, which makes them sitting ducks vs. Fed ships.

Boris Godunov · March 30, 2003, 00:37

RE: Fed fleet. He makes one big ludicrous assumption: That fleet numbers indicate the number of fleets. We know from Earth navies that this is absolutely not true. There aren't 101 air force divisions, after all. The numbering of ships falls to the same false assumption--that they represent all active ships. Considering that many ship numbers are probably retired, and that numbers below a certain range may not even have been used (NC-1?), that's a big assumption.

Considering the threat that the Dominion posed, it is patently silly that, if the Federation had over 5,000 ships, they'd only cobble together 600 for a big showdown:

"The Federation dedicated a significant portion of its forces (two complete fleets) to an attack on DS9 in an attempt to regain control of the wormhole during the Dominion war. This task force consisted of roughly 600 ships, including fighters. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the Federation possessed no more than a few thousand ships at the time. This is also consistent with dialogue from Way of the Warrior which established that a Klingon attack force comprised over a third of the Klingon military, and that the very first wave of the attack would consist of over a hundred ships. If we assume that there are several waves (three or four) it logically follows that the Klingon fleet is from 1000-2000 ships. The Federation fleet would logically be of similar or smaller size, because the Klingon fleet has a significant proportion of very small BOP-class warships, while the Federation fleet tends to consist of larger vessels, which were usually several hundred metres in length or more."

Regardless, the Empire has 25,000 Star Destroyers alone, plus millions of other warships, including Frigates, Carrack Cruisers, Corvettes and Dreadnoughts.

Dr Strangelove · March 30, 2003, 00:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Lonestar

Even if we were to accept your argument,(which is nonsense, as George Lucas himself has said EU sources are considered canon unless contradicted by the movies, and even then, only that portion of the book is consideed void), the ANH novelization was written by Lucas.

EU? Hey! Just you keep the French out of this! You hear?!

Boris Godunov · March 30, 2003, 00:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

What speed and power advantages?

You have never been fully able to counter my argument that Imperial ships cannot fight at FTL speeds, which makes them sitting ducks vs. Fed ships.

You've never successfully given any instance wherein the above has happened, nor have you explained how it is even physically possiblt for a ship traveling FTL to attack/engage one that is going at sublight speeds.

Dr Strangelove · March 30, 2003, 00:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

"We had to destroy planet in order to save it..."

OOOOhhhhhhhh...... an interstellar John Birch Society!

Boris Godunov · March 30, 2003, 00:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
By the by, what the heck are "canonical sources?" I have already pointed out the silliness of the novels, but you are still sticking with them.

You only claimed they were silly, but as was pointed out many times, unless they contradict the films, they are considered canon.

And what's your explanation for your false Lily quote, hmmmmmmmmmmm?

DinoDoc · March 30, 2003, 00:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
If the Federation only consists of 150 planets, as Picard says, then what else can be said?

1) No you know how I felt after the Han debate.

2) The article goes into detail how he uses continuity to arrive at that number.

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I think "one million" is a huge exaggeration there...would need to provide sources on that.

Another way to approach this problem is to look at the population of planets in the galaxy as a whole. McCoy states in "Balance of Terror" that there are likely to be three million Earth-type worlds in the galaxy as a whole. We know that while class M planets are the most suitable for Human life, Humans are capable of living on at least two other classes of planet - class L and H. There are also at least some colonies located in domes or underground on otherwise uninhabitable planets - Janus IV is a good example of this type of colony. So the total population of Human-habitable planets in the galaxy is likely to be somewhere between three and nine million. Since Humanity has explored at least 11% of the galaxy as of TNG, then between 330,000 and one million habitable planets should lie in this explored zone.

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I don't see all that much reason to think the other races would rush to band together to defeat the Empire.

I fail to see why. History is full of examples where the other powers in the system have formed balancing coalitions to contain or defeat a potential hegemon.

Quote:

The Romulans had to be tricked into helping the Federation before.

We still have the aftermath of Nemesis to consider when constructing this scenario.

GePap · March 30, 2003, 00:46

Quote:

Originally posted by monolith94
If Ewoks can defeat the Empire, I see no reason why the Vorlons would have trouble. Quality over quantity, you see...

Exactly: If I remmebr the movie correctly, you can't possibly point to there being mroe than 200-300 ships battling over Endor: I don't crae about books, just look at the movie. compare that equally as large, if not larger battles shown in Star Trek and B5. Obviously, the empire may have so many ships, but it seems to need ot keep them all spread around all the time, and thus in the movies is neevr able to put together a very large fleet. i emna, for Gods sake, in episode 2, the whole "cloned republican army" is 200,000 strong..come on!

B5, B5, B5 yeah!

Dr Strangelove · March 30, 2003, 00:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

I don't see how what Lucas has done is any different from what the writers of Star Trek have done. You scoff at "midi-chlorians" (which I also think are dumb), but what about ST's Q race and the Founders? Might as well have magic pixies, too.

Didn't Lucas steal the midi-chlorians from the Scientologists? Aren't midi-chlorians supposed to be the aliens who implanted bad "engrams" into our minds that can only be removed by skilled scientologist technicians performing mental "audits" for nominal fees of only a few thousand bucks/session?

Urban Ranger · March 30, 2003, 00:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
You've never successfully given any instance wherein the above has happened, nor have you explained how it is even physically possiblt for a ship traveling FTL to attack/engage one that is going at sublight speeds.

I told you, in Balance of Terror, for example. Even if that is not conclusive, I have already shown you it is much more difficult to hit an object travelling at FTL then one at sublight.

We are talking about vectors here, not mere scalars.

I don't think you want to start on Physics, Boris. Tell me how this Force thing is anything remotely scientific.

Boris Godunov · March 30, 2003, 01:01

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
1) No you know how I felt after the Han debate.

2) The article goes into detail how he uses continuity to arrive at that number.

The Han debate was different, as there was strong ambiguity in what he said, and an official source explained it.

The detail from the article about that is bunk, as it ignores the quotes and relies on unfounded assumptions.

Quote:

Another way to approach this problem is to look at the population of planets in the galaxy as a whole. McCoy states in "Balance of Terror" that there are likely to be three million Earth-type worlds in the galaxy as a whole.

Medical Doctor McCoy knows this number how? What are his qualifications? McCoy uses hyperbole often...

[QUOTE]We know that while class M planets are the most suitable for Human life, Humans are capable of living on at least two other classes of planet - class L and H. There are also at least some colonies located in domes or underground on otherwise uninhabitable planets - Janus IV is a good example of this type of colony. So the total population of Human-habitable planets in the galaxy is likely to be somewhere between three and nine million. [QUOTE]

unfounded assumption. Did McCoy mean only "Class M" planets by what he said, or were L and H included in that? Do we know the commonality of these classes?

Regardless, if there are a million inhabitable planets, even within reach of the Federation, what good would that do them if they aren't currently inhabited? ST has the crews of the ships routinely visiting inhabitable worlds that are barren or primitive pre-Warp societies. What good do they do them?

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I fail to see why. History is full of examples where the other powers in the system have formed balancing coalitions to contain or defeat a potential hegemon.

History is also full of incidences of the opposite.

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The Romulans had to be tricked into helping the Federation before.[/q]
We still have the aftermath of Nemesis to consider when constructing this scenario.

Who on earth would waste their $$ seeing Nemesis?

GeneralTacticus · March 30, 2003, 01:02

Quote:

Exactly: If I remmebr the movie correctly, you can't possibly point to there being mroe than 200-300 ships battling over Endor: I don't crae about books, just look at the movie. compare that equally as large, if not larger battles shown in Star Trek and B5. Obviously, the empire may have so many ships, but it seems to need ot keep them all spread around all the time, and thus in the movies is neevr able to put together a very large fleet.

As I recall, they kept them spread out because they were looking everywhere for the rebels, or trying to give the appearance of such. Without any kind of organized rebellion, the need to keep them spread out would largely vanish.

GePap · March 30, 2003, 01:05

Any "empire" that can have an "elite Legion" of its troops beaten by a bunch of 3 foot tall furballs with neolithic weapons does not inspire much confidence.

Also, the political state of these entities need to be accounted for. Obviously the Empire has problems internally, which could be utilized by outsiders. on the other hand, races like the Ancient ones (including Vorlons and Shadows) are nice and fee of internal political probems.

DinoDoc · March 30, 2003, 01:05

Quote:

The detail from the article about that is bunk ... relies on unfounded assumptions.

Does that mean that we can ignore stardestroyer.net now?

Boris Godunov · March 30, 2003, 01:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I told you, in Balance of Terror, for example. Even if that is not conclusive, I have already shown you it is much more difficult to hit an object travelling at FTL then one at sublight.

Not only is it inconclusive, it's not an example of it. It's an example of them dodging using warp. An SW ship could, for all we know, do the same thing. Short hyperspace jumps are doable.

Why didn't the Federation use this tactic in other battles? Why isn't it common practice? Could it be because maybe it puts enormous strain on a ship's engines to engage and disengage warp so fast?

And how would a ship zipping along FTL attack one that isn't going FTL?

Quote:

I don't think you want to start on Physics, Boris. Tell me how this Force thing is anything remotely scientific.

Not until you tell me the scientific principles behind the Q or the Founders.

Boris Godunov · March 30, 2003, 01:07

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Quote:

The detail from the article about that is bunk ... relies on unfounded assumptions.

Does that mean that we can ignore stardestroyer.net now?

No, because he gives the sources for all of his numbers, and when he is making an assumption, he always says so, explains the rationale behind making one and is always very generous towards the Fed side when doing so.

GePap · March 30, 2003, 01:08

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Quote:

The detail from the article about that is bunk ... relies on unfounded assumptions.

Does that mean that we can ignore stardestroyer.net now?

Come on DD: if the ewoks can defeat crack emperial troops, what chance in hell do these troops have against soldiers with modern weapons? That Imperial equipment had pretty crappy communications, plus they seemed to have to aim by sight, and not using sophisticated sensors.

judging form "canonical works", the Empire has problems.

Urban Ranger · March 30, 2003, 01:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Not only is it inconclusive, it's not an example of it. It's an example of them dodging using warp. An SW ship could, for all we know, do the same thing. Short hyperspace jumps are doable.

What are you talking about? Dodging? The Enterprise ate plasma torpedo.

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Why didn't the Federation use this tactic in other battles? Why isn't it common practice? Could it be because maybe it puts enormous strain on a ship's engines to engage and disengage warp so fast?

Other battles? All other battles took place at FTL, from Wrath of Khan to First Contact, etc.

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
And how would a ship zipping along FTL attack one that isn't going FTL?

"How" as in the actual mechanism? Damned if I know.

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Not until you tell me the scientific principles behind the Q or the Founders.

You can take those out without damaging the Star Trek Universe. You can't take the Force out without the whole Star Wars thing falling apart.

DinoDoc · March 30, 2003, 01:11

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
Come on DD: if the ewoks can defeat crack emperial troops, what chance in hell do these troops have against soldiers with modern weapons?

I realize that. I'm just trying to get others to do the same.

Boris Godunov · March 30, 2003, 01:12

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
Also, the political state of these entities need to be accounted for. Obviously the Empire has problems internally, which could be utilized by outsiders. on the other hand, races like the Ancient ones (including Vorlons and Shadows) are nice and fee of internal political probems.

The small fleet at Endor was done for a specific reason: If large numbers of Imperial ships were diverted there, it might tip off the Rebels to the impending trap. Palpatine only needed enough ships there to pin the rebels in...he wanted the Death Star to destroy the Rebel fleet.

Utilizing the Empire's internal problems would be problematic for the Federation, if it were the Empire invading our galaxy...

Urban Ranger · March 30, 2003, 01:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Utilizing the Empire's internal problems would be problematic for the Federation, if it were the Empire invading our galaxy...

Speaking of which, it has never been shown that Imperial ships are capable of passing through wormholes.

Lonestar · March 30, 2003, 01:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

I told you, in Balance of Terror, for example. Even if that is not conclusive, I have already shown you it is much more difficult to hit an object travelling at FTL then one at sublight.

We are talking about vectors here, not mere scalars.

I don't think you want to start on Physics, Boris. Tell me how this Force thing is anything remotely scientific.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; The Enterprise was not moving FTL while tracking the BoP! Hell, I remember distinctly that it was sitting still when the frickin' nuke hit it!

Lonestar · March 30, 2003, 01:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Speaking of which, it has never been shown that Imperial ships are capable of passing through wormholes.

Are you on the crack cocaine? Why the Hell wouldn't they be able to?

GePap · March 30, 2003, 01:21

Lets look at each of the 5 movies in the Star wars canon:

episode 4: the biggest battle in it is the attack on the death Star. we have one huge base and a bunch of fighters for the empire, though for some reason, not enough fighters in a moon sized base to take out what looks like at most 2 dozen small craft. Empire looses.

episode 5: Battle for Hoth. We never see more than lets say 10 ships, and the Imperial invasion force is mae up of what, about 10-12 Imperial walkers? Empire wins.

episode 6: A small rebel fleet beats a slightly bigger Imperial fleet, again takes out a moon sized base with a bucnh of small craft, and as i said, neolithic furballs using wood and stone weaposn take out an elite Imperial legion.

Episode 1: biggest battle in space, over Naboo: we see, what, 20 Trade Federation ships, tops? And on the surface,the two amries don't seem to number more than a few thousands.

Episode 2: The whole "clone army of the republic, we are told, is 200,000) and the battle on whatveer planet is not particularly impresive.

Now, for the first three movies we can say having to use models for the ships and no computers limits the vessels on screen. But by the time of episode 1, using computers Lucas could have shown thousands of Trade Federation ships above Naboo: just cut and paste. He didn;t, and didn;t do it again in the second one.

I have to say that given the "Canon", the power of the Empire seems rather weak, if over and over what appears to be a miniscule enemy beats them. you say the Empire had 1,000,000 ships? Then why not have 10,000 Over Hoth and turns the planet into molten slag if this rebellion is so damned pesky?

Urban Ranger · March 30, 2003, 01:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Lonestar
I've said it before and I'll say it again; The Enterprise was not moving FTL while tracking the BoP! Hell, I remember distinctly that it was sitting still when the frickin' nuke hit it!

It's not a nuke, it's a plasma torpedo.

Urban Ranger · March 30, 2003, 01:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Lonestar
Are you on the crack cocaine? Why the Hell wouldn't they be able to?

Maybe they can, but it was never shown that they can.

Oerdin · March 30, 2003, 01:26

Quote:

Originally posted by St Leo
Nah, the US is more like the Old Republic. Europe is the New Republic.

More like the Galatic Empire trying to force its foul socialist ways onto Eastern Europe & the UK.

Lonestar · March 30, 2003, 01:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

It's not a nuke, it's a plasma torpedo.

:: pulls out change in pocket :: would you like to bet ::counts:: $.27 that the BoP fired a nuke at it?

Urban Ranger · March 30, 2003, 01:26

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
I have to say that given the "Canon", the power of the Empire seems rather weak, if over and over what appears to be a miniscule enemy beats them. you say the Empire had 1,000,000 ships? Then why not have 10,000 Over Hoth and turns the planet into molten slag if this rebellion is so damned pesky?

Good point.

Lonestar · March 30, 2003, 01:30

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap

I have to say that given the "Canon", the power of the Empire seems rather weak, if over and over what appears to be a miniscule enemy beats them. you say the Empire had 1,000,000 ships? Then why not have 10,000 Over Hoth and turns the planet into molten slag if this rebellion is so damned pesky?

Well, seeing as most of the Movies took place as far from the "bright center of the Galaxy" as you could make it...

Lemme ask you this, if you had a bunch of Rebels (who incidently, had 3 km long ships more powerful than ISDs), populations that didn't really care for being ruled over, would you want to divert most of your forces from important systems?

Hell, I wouldn't.

As George Lucas said in the Intro to The Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Books & Comics count as canon too, so long as they do not contradict what's in the movies or novelizations of movies.