The Star Wars vs Star Trek Thread; because it's been awhile. - Page 12

DinoDoc · March 30, 2003, 01:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Lonestar
:: pulls out change in pocket :: would you like to bet ::counts:: $.27 that the BoP fired a nuke at it?

They fired both.

Lonestar · March 30, 2003, 01:45

Good. Now tell him that!

DinoDoc · March 30, 2003, 01:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Lonestar
Good. Now tell him that!

Only if you tell me how in hell Imperial troops will have a chance against a Fed world if they get wiped out by teddy bears using paleolithic weapons?

MRT144 · March 30, 2003, 02:15

dont you realize dino that the storm trooper's weapons have only 3 settings:
always miss, never hit, and break down.

Urban Ranger · March 30, 2003, 02:19

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
They fired both.

Both?

DinoDoc · March 30, 2003, 02:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Both?

I believe that this is a description of the battle in Balance of Terror: http://www.ditl.org/index.htm?daymai...dromattack.htm

GePap · March 30, 2003, 02:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Lonestar

Well, seeing as most of the Movies took place as far from the "bright center of the Galaxy" as you could make it...

Lemme ask you this, if you had a bunch of Rebels (who incidently, had 3 km long ships more powerful than ISDs), populations that didn't really care for being ruled over, would you want to divert most of your forces from important systems?

Hell, I wouldn't.

As George Lucas said in the Intro to The Splinter of the Mind's Eye, Books & Comics count as canon too, so long as they do not contradict what's in the movies or novelizations of movies.

Boris keeps sayng the Empire had 25,000 SD and 975,000+ auxiliary vessels. they couldn't scrape together more than a couple of dozen to wipe out an important rebel base? and as for the battle anbove Endor: Boris says they had to have a small force to lure the rebels in..the same rebels that had a hard time finding a MOON SIZED base. Why couldn't the empire hide a very significant force within strike range of the system? Fine, have a small fleet there, but given the proof that these death Stars are pathetically weak aginst fighters, perhaps they should have hough about giving further protection to such an asset by having a significant reserve within distance: unless Imperial geenrals are such doofoses they can't make much of a plan.

maybe in the printed media they have some more impressive things, but as you said, nothing can counterdict what happeend in the movies, and seeing what happened in the movies, the Empire seems very brittle, run b incompetent tacticians and falling apart politcally if it can only make due with insignifcant fracitons of its forces at a time for crucial missions.

May i add that only once have I read the "novelization" of any sci fi show, and it was Robotech. i don;t care to read SW or ST or B5 books. (Oh,and the Zentraedi or the Invid would really wipe the floor with these bozos)

Urban Ranger · March 30, 2003, 02:41

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I believe that this is a description of the battle in Balance of Terror: http://www.ditl.org/index.htm?daymai...dromattack.htm

That's a nuclear space mine, not a missile.

DinoDoc · March 30, 2003, 02:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That's a nuclear space mine, not a missile.

Correct.

Straybow · March 30, 2003, 07:34

My tolerance for drivel is fairly low, so I only read a few SW books (a trilogy, a couple of short story compilations). I hadn't seen that map, but it is an even better example of something pulled out of Lucas' @ss and reverse-engineered into "canon."

In any real galaxy the core would be packed with white dwarves, neutron stars, and black holes to the extent that the shaded region (known as the Shapley region) would be bathed in high levels of gamma, x-rays, and high energy particles. It would be like trying to live inside an x-ray machine.

Drake Tungsten · March 30, 2003, 07:42

Quote:

Only if you tell me how in hell Imperial troops will have a chance against a Fed world if they get wiped out by teddy bears using paleolithic weapons?

Or how they would stand up to a combined legion of ruthless Sardaukar and grizzled Fremen?

Dune!!!

GeneralTacticus · March 30, 2003, 07:50

Heh. Might be quite amusing trying to see the Imperials trying to deal with Voice...

Lonestar · March 30, 2003, 10:04

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Only if you tell me how in hell Imperial troops will have a chance against a Fed world if they get wiped out by teddy bears using paleolithic weapons?

A flaw in Jango Fett's Gene code that makes them teddy bearophobic!

But hey, Some ground troops are better than NO ground troops. And Imperial Troops at least have combined arms. The Federation has....uh...a Humvee?

When we saw the Imperials land and fight a real battle in ESB, they kicked the stuffing out of the Rebels, whose ground forces are signifigantly better armed than that of the Federation's, I might add.

Straybow, The Deep Core is often described as being riddled with black holes and neutron stars, dead stars, etc. What are you talking about?

Boris Godunov · March 30, 2003, 10:37

Endor: The loss to the Ewoks isn't quite so pathetic as you are implying. First, the Empire was taken completely by surprise--even if they were aware of the existence of the little buggers, they had no reason to expect the rebels to be able to ally with them, much less that they'd ochestrate a sneak attack. Second, the Imps were operating in extremely difficult, unfamiliar terrain, while the Ewoks new the area intimately. Vietnam vets can attest to how effective guerrila tactics can be in jungle terrain. Third, the Ewoks outnumbered the Imps significantly.

GePap:

As for the tactical problems of operating sans Emperor, that's just not valid. At Endor, the Imperial fleet was outnumbered in terms of capital ships, but they held off a direct onslaught of the Rebel cruisers for 30 minutes before they began losing. That is the Emperor's power, apparently. However, the Emperor wasn't present at Hoth, which was a resounding tactical victory for the Empire. There are also plenty of examples in the novels of Imperial forces racking up big tactical wins, even after the Emperor is long dead.

Remember that RotJ is years after Yavin. By this point, the Rebels have gained the sympathy of many more worlds, in a large part thanks to Alderaan, including the Bothans, who are excellent spies. Mon Mothma mentions them in the briefing before the attack. Had the Empire been diverting such large resources to Endor, it would undoubtedly have tipped them off to the trap.

As for the DS being vulnerable to fighters: that was what the shield generated from the planet was for. Remember that no ships could get through it, which is why the Rebels were in deep doodoo. The Empire didn't expect the Rebel force on the planet to be successful.

As for why there wasn't a huge battlefleet at Hoth--it's mentioned in the film itself. The Empire was pursuing the Rebel fleet all over the galaxy. Vader's task force was just one group looking for them. Keep in mind the Rebel fleet wasn't at Hoth, just a large land base. Considering the scope of the Outer Rim, it's quite imaginable that that the Empire had divvied its available ships into task forces of such size to search every system they could. Vader raced to Hoth immediately after learning of Piett's probe, not waiting for any reinforecements. They couldn't bombard the planet to slag, as there was the planetary shield. But even if they could, Vader wouldn't have wanted to, because he was already hunting Luke. His entire purpose of trundling through the Hoth base personally was to be there to nab Luke.

Nothing in the printed media contradicts what is in the films in terms of what we've said. If the printed books show the Empire winning brilliant tactical victories outside of the events in the films, then it is canon.

Straybow:

While I find it amusing you spent time photoshopping that map, you're making, once again, a big assumption. Notice how the Core worlds don't reside inside the very core itself, but are in a ring around it. If what you said was valid (and it isn't, since SW descriptions distinctly say what Lonestar pointed out), this would merely be corraboration of the vast size of their galaxy, and that the core worlds are far enough away from the galaxy's center to function as normal planets.

DinoDoc · March 30, 2003, 11:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Endor: The loss to the Ewoks isn't quite so pathetic as you are implying.

They we using rocks and sticks against armor that is suppossed to stand up well against blaster fire. It shouldn't matter if the teddy bears outnumber them 20-1. It would have been more believable had they gone with the original plan and made Endor a Wookie colony.

Boris Godunov · March 30, 2003, 11:37

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc

They we using rocks and sticks against armor that is suppossed to stand up well against blaster fire. It shouldn't matter if the teddy bears outnumber them 20-1. It would have been more believable had they gone with the original plan and made Endor a Wookie colony.

You'll notice that you don't actually see many Imps getting killed by such weapons. The only cases we see of them actually taking out Imps are their carefully laid traps for the speederbike and the AT-STs. This was due to their intimate knowledge of the terrain.

The Ewoks were simply drawing the Imp forces away from the bunker, out into the jungle and isolating them for easy take-down with greatly superior numbers.

MRT144 · March 30, 2003, 11:46

imagine if the ewoks had been killed en masse. a generation of children would have had terrible depression...thats what.

DinoDoc · March 30, 2003, 11:50

Quote:

Originally posted by MRT144
imagine if the ewoks had been killed en masse. a generation of children would have had terrible depression...thats what.

If it helps, we really have no idea what devestation the debris from the exploding Death Star caused to thier numbers.

Lonestar · March 30, 2003, 11:54

Sure we do. They were WIPED THE F*CK OUT!

DinoDoc · March 30, 2003, 11:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Lonestar
They were WIPED THE F*CK OUT!

Is that canon or wishful thinking?

Lonestar · March 30, 2003, 12:10

It was mentioned the Ewoks were exterminated in one of the X-Wing novels, IIRC.

MRT144 · March 30, 2003, 12:26

good...the bear spawn of lucas should die

Boris Godunov · March 30, 2003, 13:08

Quote:

Originally posted by MRT144
good...the bear spawn of lucas should die

Yeah, with the exception of a handful of Ewoks that were taken offworld by the Rebels, they were wiped out and Endor was turned into a barren wasteland.

Interesting sidenote: According to the ROtJ novelization, Jerjerrod was ordered to destroy Endor as a lasp gasp of defeat in the battle. That's why the DS superlaser dish was facing the planet at the very end. Jerjerrod's personel had evacuated, however, and he remained in the command room until the end...

GePap · March 30, 2003, 14:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Endor: The loss to the Ewoks isn't quite so pathetic as you are implying. First, the Empire was taken completely by surprise--even if they were aware of the existence of the little buggers, they had no reason to expect the rebels to be able to ally with them, much less that they'd ochestrate a sneak attack. Second, the Imps were operating in extremely difficult, unfamiliar terrain, while the Ewoks new the area intimately. Vietnam vets can attest to how effective guerrila tactics can be in jungle terrain. Third, the Ewoks outnumbered the Imps significantly.

I am sorry, but as dino said, the inbalance in technology is so immense, all those things you menoned should not matter. Don't Imperial forces have sensors for nody heat? What about air support? or ranges weapons, you know, like mortar or some type of grenade? No, even if taken by surpirse and horribly outnumbered, the Imerial troops should, if so damned well trained, gotten their act together and taken out the hairballs.

Quote:

As for the tactical problems of operating sans Emperor, that's just not valid. At Endor, the Imperial fleet was outnumbered in terms of capital ships, but they held off a direct onslaught of the Rebel cruisers for 30 minutes before they began losing. That is the Emperor's power, apparently. However, the Emperor wasn't present at Hoth, which was a resounding tactical victory for the Empire. There are also plenty of examples in the novels of Imperial forces racking up big tactical wins, even after the Emperor is long dead.

Going only by what we see in the movies: first of all, does it look like the rbeels have more capitol ships in the battle over Endor? I remember Akbar telling what's his name (Billy Dee) that his force would be destroyed if it went up against the Star Destroyers. I was told the movies are sacrosant, and the Rebel fleet over Endor looks mighty weaker than the Imperial fleet, given they also had a super star destroyer and the firepower of the death star.

Quote:

As for the DS being vulnerable to fighters: that was what the shield generated from the planet was for. Remember that no ships could get through it, which is why the Rebels were in deep doodoo. The Empire didn't expect the Rebel force on the planet to be successful.

I am sorry: lets look at movie number 1: this things is the size of a Moon, and yet two dozen fighters can get through? What use would this Death Star have been once completed? would it only be able to take out planets on which the empire had built a shiled beforehand? Come on, something the size of a moon could hild, what? 50,000 TIE fighters and all the facilities to house them? And yet, what does it have? 40-50? Why? You keep saying the Empire has a million worlds, and a million ships...what, each world can only support one ship? A plane wide city like Corrusant should be able to support tens of thousands of ships by itself. The Empire sounds woefully underequiped.

Quote:

As for why there wasn't a huge battlefleet at Hoth--it's mentioned in the film itself. The Empire was pursuing the Rebel fleet all over the galaxy. Vader's task force was just one group looking for them. Keep in mind the Rebel fleet wasn't at Hoth, just a large land base. Considering the scope of the Outer Rim, it's quite imaginable that that the Empire had divvied its available ships into task forces of such size to search every system they could. Vader raced to Hoth immediately after learning of Piett's probe, not waiting for any reinforecements. They couldn't bombard the planet to slag, as there was the planetary shield. But even if they could, Vader wouldn't have wanted to, because he was already hunting Luke. His entire purpose of trundling through the Hoth base personally was to be there to nab Luke.

First of all, if so, maybe all the Federation has to do is get its hand on some powerful good Jedi and put them on earth: hey, no planetary bombardment. As for the whole: Vader raced there with no reinforcements: again, th Empire, you tell us, has a million ships. Why is oen of the most important commanders racing around with a couple of dozen or so ships: why not 100, just be be sure? They didn't even have enough ship to cover all the exits, and I am sorry, that Ion cannon looked to me to have a very limited firing angle: what the Imperials could not set up some sort of kill zone? How close to enemy ships do Imperial ships ahve to be? 100 Meters? From the battle oevr Endor, that is what it looks like.

May I also add stupid imperial ship design: why the hell do TIE fighters need solar panels on the side? Honestly, are they going to soak up enough power from them were they are? And on capital ships..whats with the badly exposed bridge. I know you went on about how that one fighter got through and it was a fluke. Well, flukes happen. This super star destroyer is what, 10-15 miles long? and in all that space the empire could not fit some sort of deep internal command center to make sure such a ship could survive this small bridge being taken out? hell, even ships today have something like that. tese things are in space..there is no need for senior commanders t satre out of some window that will certainly have a very limited view of what is happening.

GePap · March 30, 2003, 17:39

To further strengthen the previous post:

1. We are tld the movies are sacrosat. Fine. lest look at the battle oer Endor and on Endor.

During the movie a junior officer ask Admiral Piet why the Star Destroyers are not engaging the enemy> now, are junior commanders suicidal? we are tld the Imperial fleet was smaller and weaker than the Rebel fleet, and yet this junior officer want to duke it out?

Second: when Billy Dee tells admiral Akbar to close on the SD, what does Akbar say? "we won't last long aginst those SD.." Why? Again, if his fleet is bigger and better, why on earth would that be a suicidal assault, as Akbar obviosuly thinks? Also, why would the DS no longer be able to freely target Rebel vessels? This is space people: assuming Turbolasers move as fast as laser (light) then it takes one second to hit an enemy vessel 186,000 Km away. These ships can certainly put some distance between themselves (which would really make sense given the relatively poor manueverability of these behemoths) and yet they seem to come within a few hundread yards of each other to shoot it out. Even WW2 battleships had more distance between themselves.

Third: lets look at this legion: it had one mission, defend this one generator. Now, when the Ewoks atatck, the imperial forces are on the open, and then, what do they do, they go chasing after the Ewoks, into the forest, in small groups or individually...WHY!!!??? They have one mission, defenmd this outpost. Ibviosuly the enemy has no wepaons that can possibly harm the instalations amror, so thy only way the Imerial forces can loose is if the enemy infiltrates the base. So why not, just circle the wagons (we are told ewok weapons can't actually penetrate Imperial armor) and blast the forest aournd the base flat, and for good measure call in a few tactical air strikes, since obviosuly the fighters are not necessary to defend a DS since the shiled is up?

Just based on the crappy and amatuerish tactics we see the Empire use, how can we expect them to win anything?

Drake Tungsten · March 30, 2003, 21:20

Sardaukar would've ****ed the Ewoks up...

Dune!!!

Straybow · March 30, 2003, 23:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
While I find it amusing you spent time photoshopping that map, you're making, once again, a big assumption. Notice how the Core worlds don't reside inside the very core itself, but are in a ring around it. If what you said was valid (and it isn't, since SW descriptions distinctly say what Lonestar pointed out), this would merely be corraboration of the vast size of their galaxy, and that the core worlds are far enough away from the galaxy's center to function as normal planets.

I find your devotion to Lucas' swill amusing. It is the most shallow of any "sci fi" series/movies. Battlestar Galactica is more consistent and realistic. Heck, even Robotech is better on that scale.

You and Lonestar are wrong. Somebody already posted a link to the SEDS site that has current estimates of Milky Way star counts at 200-400G, indicating that Lucas' numbers aren't significantly larger. The radius of the outer reaches is only 20% larger by Lucas' figures, which would only be 1.2³=1.728 times the number of stars. That means his galaxy is consistent with normal spiral galaxy structure.

Lucas' nod to black holes etc in the core is no better than his asteroid belt scenes, but in the opposite direction. The asteroid fields are far too dense by a factor of millions, while the core is not dense enough by a factor of thousands. Cinematic license is one thing, but trying to make it "canon" is absurd.

As for my pic, I was being generous by only shading in 20% of the radius of the outer rim. That might be consistent with an unusually thick dust barrier surrounding the core. Heck, let's give Lucas that for free. The "Core Worlds" are still fully within the bulge.

Shapley calculated (from measured gamma rays at this distance of 28,000 ly from the center & shielded by intervening dust) that gamma/x rays would make environments uninhabitable as far as 15,000 ly from the center of the Milky Way (almost 30% of the radius). That's thousands of ly beyond the bright bulge itself.

Some estimates of stellar density in spiral galaxy cores put average separation on the order of ¼ ly. Close passes by stellar neighbors would be so common that all planets would be in highly eccentric long period orbits or simply drifting free among the stars.

So they expend stupendous amounts of energy to circularize the orbit of a planet and transplant a whole ecology, right? Besides the problem of ionization of atmospheric gasses, the sky on such a planet would be a uniform haze of blinding light. The local sun would merely be a bright spot traversing the heavens once a day. Not even a Venusian atmosphere could stop penetration of sterilizing radiation to ground level.

So they continually expend stupendous amounts of energy shielding the whole planet from lethal radiation and inconvenient insolation. But none of that is in the "canon." Get over it, Lucas' work is nothing but juvenile prattle.