The Star Wars vs Star Trek Thread; because it's been awhile.

[DinoDoc]

Star Trek ships are immune to laser weapons. Star Wars ships use laser weapons. Enough said.

[Nubclear]

No, it is clear from numerous sources (try reading the old "Making of" books, etc) that the Federation is the English-speaking democracies, Klingons are the Soviet (not Russian) analogues, the inscrutable Vulcans are the Japanese, the similarly mysterious and pointy-eared Romulans are the Chinese.

For ST:TNG races are not a analogous to specific nations, rather to character types. Ferengis are merely archtypical of capitalism gone amuck. Picture Bill Gates as the Grand Nagus and there might be a parallel…

Similarly, the Bajorans and Cardassians are not France and Germany, other than parallels to the behaviors exhibited during the Nazi occupation. Might as well say that Bajorans and Cardassians are the Bosnia-Herzogovinian Muslims and Serbs. The parallel is drawn the other way, from the fictional model to the real world behaviors.

...............If you say so.

I'm still sticking to my beliefs!

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Star Trek ships are immune to laser weapons. Star Wars ships use laser weapons. Enough said.

Another common Trekkie fallacy.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/index.html

Amazingly, I routinely get mail from fans of both Star Wars and Star Trek, insisting that turbolasers must be lasers. The usual justification is that they have the word "laser" in the name, so they must be lasers, right? Well, this idea stems from an extremely simplistic and close-minded interpretation of language. A language grows over time, rather than being invented or created. As a result, it will invariably incorporate countless archaic meanings, holdovers, cultural references, etc. One could probably expend huge amounts of space describing the various archaic terms in the English language, but a few examples are easily applied to the turbolaser issue.

Blueprints

In both Star Wars and Star Trek, engineering schematics are invariably described as "blueprints". That is the same linguistic convention used today. But where did it come from? The answer is one which I have personal experience with. Before large-format photocopiers were invented, engineers used to reproduce drawings with a machine called a "blueprint machine." This machine operated on principles which were completely different from a modern photocopier or printer. To use it, you would put your drawing on top of a piece of specially coated yellow paper. The blueprint machine would then shine an ultraviolet light on your drawing, and the light would get through the white parts of the drawing (thus breaking down the yellow coating underneath) and be blocked by the black parts of the drawing. The result was a piece of paper which had yellow lines where all of the black lines on the original drawing were. This paper was then passed through an ammonia-based chemical process which made the yellow coating turn blue. The result was a reproduced drawing that was quite literally blue.

These machines were beastly and unpleasant. The ammonia smelled terrible (although it was good for clearing out sinus congestion), you had to draw on special vellum paper which was translucent rather than opaque like heavy bond paper, and the copies were always "dirty" because the UV radiation was not 100% effective at breaking down the underlying coating layers after passing through the vellum drawing. But they produced copies of drawings at a time when there was no other way. Of course, modern engineering photocopiers produce black lines on white paper without requiring special paper or ammonia treatment, just like any other photocopier. And since most modern engineering drawings are generated in CAD systems, a photocopier isn't really required. Drawings can be simply printed in multiple copies on a large-format laser printer. But the term "blueprint" has persisted to this day, even though the vast majority of the population has absolutely no idea where it came from. When the TM describes the blueprints of the Galaxy Class starship, should you assume that they are using primitive blueprint machines to reproduce their engineering drawings? I wouldn't.

....

It is actually very easy to determine that turbolasers cannot possibly be lasers. Lasers are merely a coherent assembly of photons, and photons have several important characteristics:

They always travel at the speed of light in vacuum, which is hardly surprising since they are light.
They do not interact with one another. If two lasers intersect, an interference pattern may appear in the region of intersection, but they will not impede one another in any way. The beams won't "bounce off" one another, stop at the collision point, or change direction or speed. They will continue as if nothing had happened.

They do not radiate energy in any direction other than their direction of travel. In other words, you will never see a laser in vacuum until it hits something. This is how laser pointers work- you can see the red dot but you can't see the beam. When lasers are filmed for dramatic purposes, they are invariably filmed in an extremely smoky or dusty environment, so the viewer will see the laser scattering off the dust and smoke. In a vacuum, a laser will always be invisible.

Obviously, turbolasers cannot possibly be lasers. They exhibit none of the characteristics of lasers. They travel much slower than the speed of light, they interact with one another (as demonstrated by the combining Death Star beam), and they are visible in vacuum. To put a twist on an old saying, if something doesn't walk like a duck, doesn't look like a duck, and doesn't quack like a duck, it probably ain't a duck.

[Lonestar]

....and Boris knocks one out of the park!

[Boris Godunov]

And who is saying there aren't guided weapons in SW? Don't these people remember Luke's torpedoes doing a 90 degree turn into the Death Star exhaust port while going at an incredibly high velocity?

[Nubclear]

Umm.....Doesnt Trek have Q and Weasle? Even the Borg......All suficent to defend against Star Wars.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Lonestar
....and Boris knocks one out of the park!

Not really. The idiotic plasma explaination, that has little basis in continuity, I've seen from stardestroyer.net was much better.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
And who is saying there aren't guided weapons in SW?

The fact that a stardestroyer has so many problems dealing with a flight of snub fighters tends to lead credence to that suggestion.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
Umm.....Doesnt Trek have Q and Weasle? Even the Borg......All suficent to defend against Star Wars.

Haven't you been paying attention? Q and and such "Deus ex machinas" have been dispensed with, as they weren't present to save the Quadrant from other threats.

As for the Borg...if given a choice between being conquered by the Empire or assimilated by the Borg, which side do you think the Feds et al would choose?

Not to mention that the Empire has the firepower and resources to dispense with the Borg handily as well.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Haven't you been paying attention? Q and and such "Deus ex machinas" have been dispensed with, as they weren't present to save the Quadrant from other threats.

Yes but if there is a hypothetical invasion between the universes, I'm pretty sure Q would help out. Because before he was simply testing humanity.

As for the Borg...if given a choice between being conquered by the Empire or assimilated by the Borg, which side do you think the Feds et al would choose?

They know they have a much better chance with the borg

Not to mention that the Empire has the firepower and resources to dispense with the Borg handily as well.

IIRC, the borg adapt.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

The fact that a stardestroyer has so many problems dealing with a flight of snub fighters tends to lead credence to that suggestion.

In which instance? You're not citing the Executor example, I hope, because that's easy to dispense with.

And nice non-response on the laser argument.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000


Yes but if there is a hypothetical invasion between the universes, I'm pretty sure Q would help out. Because before he was simply testing humanity.

Baseless assertion. Q didn't lift a finger when the Dominion invaded the Alpha Quadrant from across the galaxy, which is the most comparable situation. Asserting he'd be "likely" to intervene is unfounded. Why? Why would an omnipotent being care about a regime change in one quadrant of the galaxy?

They know they have a much better chance with the borg

Isn't that implying the Empire is far stronger than the Borg? Make up your mind!

IIRC, the borg adapt.

Not to an infinite degree. Considering even the Federation was able to put down the Borg, even after such supposed "adaptations," it is clear such ability is not all it's cracked up to be.

Plus, we have no way of knowing if the Borg could easily assimilate Imperial technology which is thousands of years more advanced than their own.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
In which instance? You're not citing the Executor example,

That will do for a start. We can also deal with the ships escaping from Hoth in full view of a stardestroyer along with thier inability to take out the ion canon.

And nice non-response on the laser argument.

You didn't give me one. Hell, I even pointed you to a better one.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Baseless assertion. Q didn't lift a finger when the Dominion invaded the Alpha Quadrant from across the galaxy, which is the most comparable situation. Asserting he'd be "likely" to intervene is unfounded. Why? Why would an omnipotent being care about a regime change in one quadrant of the galaxy?

Because the fact is that he loves the human race

Isn't that implying the Empire is far stronger than the Borg? Make up your mind!

No, I'm saying the Empire is stronger than the Federation

Not to an infinite degree. Considering even the Federation was able to put down the Borg, even after such supposed "adaptations," it is clear such ability is not all it's cracked up to be.

Plus, we have no way of knowing if the Borg could easily assimilate Imperial technology which is thousands of years more advanced than their own.

Fact is we have no way of knowing how ANY of the technology would be able to combat each other Therefore the debate it pointless.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000




IIRC, the borg adapt.

...You'd much rather be a drone in the collective? I'd bet most feddies wouldn't.

Also, the Borg are nortoriously poor adapters. The small Starfleet Squadron that was fighting the Cube in First Contact was carving off sections of the Borg Cube.

And species 8472 kicked their little hienies

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Lonestar


...You'd much rather be a drone in the collective? I'd bet most feddies wouldn't.

Also, the Borg are nortoriously poor adapters. The small Starfleet Squadron that was fighting the Cube in First Contact was carving off sections of the Borg Cube.

Yes, but it takes an incredbly amount of damage to even begin to disrupt a cubes function.

And lets not forget they can travel in time

And species 8472 kicked their little hienies

Yes! And their ships were only vulnerable to 1 type of weapon!! They would be immune to all Empire attacks.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

That will do for a start. We can also deal with the ships escaping from Hoth in full view of a stardestroyer along with thier inability to take out the ion canon.

The Executor's death wasn't because some snub fighter got through its defenses, actually.

Ackbar ordered all rebel ships to concentrate their firepower on the SSD. This was a combination of MonCal cruisers, frigates and the fighters--a huge amount of firepower. The sheer volume of incoming firepower overloaded Executor's deflector shields, causing them to drop (temporarily, probably). But sheer luck stepped in here...A fighter was able to destroy one of the sensor globes, which limited the ship's targeting capacity. Even still, the Executor's point-defense guns accurately hit an incoming A-Wing fighter from the side, which is an incredible shot on a fighter zipping in at that speed. And then luck sent the crippled fighter into the bridge.

Had the fighter not hit the bridge (by chance), the Executor wouldn't have been destroyed like that(though the onslaught of every Rebel ship may still have eventually destroyed it).

You didn't give me one. Hell, I even pointed you to a better one.

So you just dismissed the entire argument that it is impossible for turbolasers to be "lasers"? How is that a refuation? It's just a dismissal sans explanation.

[Boris Godunov]

As for Hoth...the ISDs were being disabled by then ion cannon. The ion cannon was behind a planetary shield...ya know, the one the Empire had to land troops under in order to take out the generator?

[Static Universe]

The Empire's technology is crap. If their shields and sensors are so advanced, explain to me how the Millenium Falcon, without cloaking of any kind, can just land on the side of a Star Destroyer and hide out for a while?

[GePap]

The difference is thus:

Since Star Wars never gived a damn about science (Lucas made the thing up without regar to science, and only after him did people try to fill in the "science of Star Wars"), they were able top make up a universe of things so adavnced that any other science fiction universe that did, at least at a few point, try to sick to some sort of science, would lose. (well, besides that stupid Q notion in Star Trek)

So, since the Star wars universe might as well be based on Magic, they win!

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
Because the fact is that he loves the human race

News Flash: Imperials are Humans, too.

And again, where was he when the humans were being wiped up by the Dominion?

No, I'm saying the Empire is stronger than the Federation

If you say the Federation would rather face the Borg, because the Borg would be easier to defeat, that is de facto saying the Empire is stronger than the Borg, dear sir.

Fact is we have no way of knowing how ANY of the technology would be able to combat each other Therefore the debate it pointless.

Prerequisite for the debate is a suspension of disbelief, yes.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Static Universe
The Empire's technology is crap. If their shields and sensors are so advanced, explain to me how the Millenium Falcon, without cloaking of any kind, can just land on the side of a Star Destroyer and hide out for a while?

Oh, you mean why wasn't the ISD able to detect the Best smuggler in the galaxy?

Think about that for a moment.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Static Universe
The Empire's technology is crap. If their shields and sensors are so advanced, explain to me how the Millenium Falcon, without cloaking of any kind, can just land on the side of a Star Destroyer and hide out for a while?

Funny how Federation ships can't detect a ship parked on the north pole of a planet thanks to some gravitational gobbledy-gook, even though they should be able to visibly see it by looking out the window at it...

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Funny how Federation ships can't detect a ship parked on the north pole of a planet thanks to some gravitational gobbledy-gook, even though they should be able to visibly see it by looking out the window at it...

That's very defferent from being unable to detect someone attached to your very hull.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

That's very defferent from being unable to detect someone attached to your very hull.

Unless, of course, you're competing against the best smuggler in the galaxy, as Lonestar pointed out.

Leaving work to console recently-dumped friend. Latah!

[Nubclear]

Argh!!! I'm not geeky enough for this debate I pull out.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Unless, of course, you're competing against the best smuggler in the galaxy, as Lonestar pointed out.

Who happens to be attached to the hull of your ship! There aren't many ways you can get around that.

[raghar]

Russians? Europeans?

Funny I thought Vulcans are elfs.
Klingons are orcs.
You get the idea isn't it. Fantasy was popular and SF needed some fresh ideas.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Who happens to be attached to the hull of your ship! There aren't many ways you can get around that.

As opposed to ships moving in to within a few kilometers and beaming people on board? I think not.

[GePap]

DD: you are arguing againt a "scifi" universe made up by George Lucas! The 'science of SW" is just a bunch of stuff mader up by fans after the movies ina desperate attempt to turn a space western into real sci fi. There is no way to win, specially given how much Star trek was screwed up by stupid writing as it went along.