The Star Wars vs Star Trek Thread; because it's been awhile.

[Lonestar]

Urban Ranger; Boris was wrong about who ran the site, stardestroyer.net is run by an Electrical Engineer.

There is, however, a more mindnumbing website made by an astrophysicist in Australia. It's one of the hosted sites on Theforce.net (technical commentaries). I'm too lazy to go there myshelf, but I believe most of your questions will be covered there.

[Ming]

Enough Said...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


Which Galaxy? At the onset of the first episode we were told rather pointedly that the story takes place in another galaxy "far, far away". Perhaps it took place in a much smaller galaxy. I seem to recall that there is a galaxy or cluster called "M 10" or something like that composed of several thousand stars relatively compacted into a space of only a few light years across. The average distance between stars is only a few light days. Maybe that's where the Star Wars action took place?

The galaxy in Star Wars is vaster than our own. According to canonical sources (ANH novelization), the Empire alone controls 1 million star systems. And according to a quote from Han, there are 12 million systems known to be habitable, which is out of 400 billion stars in the galaxy (according to Tales of the Bounty Hunter). There's no possibility that many stars were compressed into such a small space, as the gravitational forces of so many stars would have caused the entire galaxy to collapse in on itself into a massive black hole. Or the sky would be so dense with light of all the stars that it would be stunningly bright all the time. There also 20 million known species of sentient life, which a few thousand stars would be unable to account for.

Lonestar said before something about the SW's galaxy's diameter being 120,000 lightyears, larger than our own.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Ming
Enough Said...

Ok, I'm tired of hearing Babylon 5 without knowing wtf it is.

What is Babylon 5 and why is it better than Trek?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That's nice, but since Imperial starships are incapable of engaging targets at trans-light speeds, they are just sitting ducks.

That doesn't even touch the manuverablity advantage they hold over Empire ships even at impulse speed.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

So? You are assuming that their galaxy is as big as the Milky Way. This is not the case. The fact is their galaxy is a lot smaller. In fact, just a tiny itty bitty thing. The Milky Way galaxy is around 30,000 light-year across. Yours, probably like 50 ly.

Well, sure, because the Milky Way is so bloody big compared to the SW two-bit galaxy. One of the technical manuals for the Enterprise-D states that Warp 8 is 2⁸ times c (speed of light). That's 256 times to you mathematically challenged. It will actually take more than 117 years for a Fed ship to move from one edge of the Milky Way galaxy to the other edge. You forgot, however, that warp drives are only used when they are on patrol. Fed ships can move at transwarp speeds for strategic movement. So who is faster here?

Dispensed with above. You're completely, utterly wrong.

Even when it's said in one of the SW movies?

What he said in the movies is not given any specific measurement. We have no idea what ".5 past lightspeed" means. He may not even be referring to hyperspace speed at all, but the ability to travel on their normal engines. After all, if he could make it from one star system to the other without hyperspace in a matter of weeks, then his normal engines must be capable of going faster than the speed of light.

Refuted.

Dealt with...you're wrong.

Not so. Phasers tunnel through subspace, since ST ships fight at warp speed. If they move at lightspeed they can never hit. So phasers bypass Imperial shields.

That's nice, but since Imperial starships are incapable of engaging targets at trans-light speeds, they are just sitting ducks.

And again this doesn't appear to be the case, as SW ships seem to be able to achieve faster-than-light travel without their hyperspace engines. So you're wrong again.

Thank you, come again!

[Ming]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
Ok, I'm tired of hearing Babylon 5 without knowing wtf it is.

It was only the BEST SF SERIES EVER on TV. They still produce occasional made for TV movies.

And the shadows or vorlons would wipe out The Empire or the Federation without batting an eye...

[DinoDoc]

as SW ships seem to be able to achieve faster-than-light travel without their hyperspace engines.

I'd like to see a Lucasarts source on this.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

Quote:

as SW ships seem to be able to achieve faster-than-light travel without their hyperspace engines.

I'd like to see a Lucasarts source on this.

The source is canonical. Han flew in the Millenium Falcon, sans hyperdrive, from the outskirts of the Hoth System to the Bespin system in a matter of weeks. Even if we were very generous and said that only one light year separated the two systems, that indicates even without hyperspace the MF could travel at a speed well above that of light.

And, according to the official map of the SW galaxy, Bespin is many, many lightyears away from Hoth.

[Lonestar]

Ming, did I set the Poll up to time out after awhile?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
The galaxy in Star Wars is vaster than our own. According to canonical sources (ANH novelization), the Empire alone controls 1 million star systems. And according to a quote from Han, there are 12 million systems known to be habitable, which is out of 400 billion stars in the galaxy (according to Tales of the Bounty Hunter).

You are talking about a whole bunch of people who don't know a thing of astronomy even if it bites them in the rear. You know where that number 400 billion comes from? It's number of stars estimated in the Milky Way galaxy. What a coincidence.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
There's no possibility that many stars were compressed into such a small space, as the gravitational forces of so many stars would have caused the entire galaxy to collapse in on itself into a massive black hole.

It is entirely possible that the SW galaxy is far smaller than it is asserted by the fans and novel writers.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Lonestar said before something about the SW's galaxy's diameter being 120,000 lightyears, larger than our own.

The core of the Milky Way is a 30,000 diameter sphere. The whole galaxy is about 100,000 ly in diameter and 10,000 ly thick, budging in the middle. So it will take the Enterprise-D over 390 years to completely transverse the Milky Way.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Ming, did I set the Poll up to time out after awhile?

Yes... you only set it for 10 days. However, that can be changed by "somebody" with mod rights in this forum

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Even if we were very generous and said that only one light year separated the two systems, that indicates even without hyperspace the MF could travel at a speed well above that of light.

Talk about exaggerations. Especially when we have Han "bragging" that his ship makes .5 past light speed.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Dispensed with above. You're completely, utterly wrong.

I read it. It's just a bunch of numbers made up by silly fans and authors who have no idea what a brown dwarf is. I wouldn't call it authoritative.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
What he said in the movies is not given any specific measurement. We have no idea what ".5 past lightspeed" means. He may not even be referring to hyperspace speed at all, but the ability to travel on their normal engines. After all, if he could make it from one star system to the other without hyperspace in a matter of weeks, then his normal engines must be capable of going faster than the speed of light.

You are talking about a very specific ship, not Imperial ships in general. Try again.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Dealt with...you're wrong.

Not so fast.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
And again this doesn't appear to be the case, as SW ships seem to be able to achieve faster-than-light travel without their hyperspace engines. So you're wrong again.

I wasn't saying they can't move FTL, I was saying they cannot fight FTL.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Ming


Yes... you only set it for 10 days. However, that can be changed by "somebody" with mod rights in this forum

well, all things considered, I think B5 did pretty good making it to the #2 slot, especially as I didn't even mention it in the OP, don't you?

*cough, cough*

Oh Hell, why lie. I just want to gloat about SW kicking the stuffing out of ST.

FWIW, I have In the Begining and The Gathering on DvD.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Lonestar
There is, however, a more mindnumbing website made by an astrophysicist in Australia. It's one of the hosted sites on Theforce.net (technical commentaries). I'm too lazy to go there myshelf, but I believe most of your questions will be covered there.

Thanks for the link.

My view is the whole Star Wars universe wasn't created with any sort of science or technological accuracy in mind, because the whole story is just a fairy tale wrapped in Science Fiction clothing, not true SF per se. Trying to rationalise it will just make you gaga.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger





I wasn't saying they can't move FTL, I was saying they cannot fight FTL.

So? When in the entire franchise of Star Trek, has a FTL-moving warship fired on a slower-than-light target?

I eagerly await your cite.

[Ming]

They deserve better than just number 2.

When it comes to combat, Both the Vorlons and Shadows have weapons that can cut through any kind of shields, and cut a ship in half in a matter of seconds...

The Federation or Empire wouldn't last long...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
You are talking about a whole bunch of people who don't know a thing of astronomy even if it bites them in the rear. You know where that number 400 billion comes from? It's number of stars estimated in the Milky Way galaxy. What a coincidence.

Where did you get that? The upper limit of estimated stars in the Milky Way is only 100 billion:

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/MarissaWager.shtml

That gives the SW galaxy 4 times the number of stars than the Milky Way.

It is entirely possible that the SW galaxy is far smaller than it is asserted by the fans and novel writers.

Right. So despite logic, it could be smaller. There's a sound argument.

The core of the Milky Way is a 30,000 diameter sphere. The whole galaxy is about 100,000 ly in diameter and 10,000 ly thick, budging in the middle. So it will take the Enterprise-D over 390 years to completely transverse the Milky Way.

How could a sphere be 100,000 ly in diameter but only 10,000 ly thick?

It takes Han a matter of hours to traverse from the outer rim (Tatooine) to the Core (Alderaan). That's at least 30,000 ly in hours.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Talk about exaggerations. Especially when we have Han "bragging" that his ship makes .5 past light speed.

Again, we've dealt with this... .5 doesn't mean 1.5c. In fact, an official source defines it:

From an official source, Dark Force Rising:

"From the labored sound of the engines, [Mara Jade] could guess they were pushing uncomfortably far past a Victory Star Destroyer's normal flank speed of Point Four Five. Possibly even as high as Point Five, which would mean they were covering a hundred twenty-seven light-years per hour."

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I read it. It's just a bunch of numbers made up by silly fans and authors who have no idea what a brown dwarf is. I wouldn't call it authoritative.

Cop out. Those numbers come from official novelizations, which are considered canon unless contradicted by the films. And they aren't contradicted.

Considering the technological ludicrousness in Voyager alone, I don't think ST has room to criticize.

You are talking about a very specific ship, not Imperial ships in general. Try again.

This relies on your assumption that Imp ships can't do the same thing. No such assumption is warranted.

I wasn't saying they can't move FTL, I was saying they cannot fight FTL.

As Lonestar pointed out, fighting a ship not going FTL while going FTL is, frankly, impossible.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Cop out. Those numbers come from official novelizations, which are considered canon unless contradicted by the films. And they aren't contradicted.

What does that mean? Is official silliness better than unofficial silliness?

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Considering the technological ludicrousness in Voyager alone, I don't think ST has room to criticize.

Bring it!

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
This relies on your assumption that Imp ships can't do the same thing. No such assumption is warranted.

Com'on Boris, I thought you are better than that. As usual, it is the burden of proponents of an assertion to show evidence for it.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
As Lonestar pointed out, fighting a ship not going FTL while going FTL is, frankly, impossible.

As far as I can remember, there is no battle scene in any of the original 3 episodes that took place FTL. Since I haven't seen any of the new "prequels," I am not 100% certain on it.

[Boris Godunov]

Ok, I will take it you are ceding the other points, as your response of it being "silliness" is just a cop out, considering both SW and ST require a suspension of disbelief. Unless you want to explain the sheer absurdity of transportation beams in regards to living subjects.

As for the FTL travel, you're missing the point. Think about it tactically. How could a vessel flying at FTL travel engage in combat with a ship going at such a dramatically slower speed?

Answer Lonestar's question.

[Ming]

What good is speed if the enemy has weapons that can cut through your shields like butter...

GO BAB 5

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


The galaxy in Star Wars is vaster than our own. According to canonical sources (ANH novelization), the Empire alone controls 1 million star systems. And according to a quote from Han, there are 12 million systems known to be habitable, which is out of 400 billion stars in the galaxy (according to Tales of the Bounty Hunter). There's no possibility that many stars were compressed into such a small space, as the gravitational forces of so many stars would have caused the entire galaxy to collapse in on itself into a massive black hole. Or the sky would be so dense with light of all the stars that it would be stunningly bright all the time. There also 20 million known species of sentient life, which a few thousand stars would be unable to account for.

Lonestar said before something about the SW's galaxy's diameter being 120,000 lightyears, larger than our own.

It appears boris is as nearly well read as I am on SW... All his points are valid and fact, thus far.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Again, we've dealt with this... .5 doesn't mean 1.5c. In fact, an official source defines it:

On what real basis are we saying that people don't mean what they say? If you've read Boba Fett's portion of the Tales of the Bounty Hunters, you'll know that novels don't count as canon.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Ok, I will take it you are ceding the other points, as your response of it being "silliness" is just a cop out, considering both SW and ST require a suspension of disbelief. Unless you want to explain the sheer absurdity of transportation beams in regards to living subjects.

If one can transport dead objects, why can't one transport live objects? They are no different physically.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
As for the FTL travel, you're missing the point. Think about it tactically. How could a vessel flying at FTL travel engage in combat with a ship going at such a dramatically slower speed?

I am not sure I understand your question. If a ship can engage FTL targets, certainly it can engage targets moving at sublight speeds.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Ming
What good is speed if the enemy has weapons that can cut through your shields like butter...

GO BAB 5

How many of these weapons do they have? I would suppose not that many, allowing a wing (72) of TIE fighters (which are unshielded anyway) to overwhelm one of these ships. And if the SW universe teams up (ie, the Empire plus rebel ships), then the superior rebel A-wings and X-wings and B-wings would also come very handy. If i is just the Empire, however, the extremely fast and nimble TIE fighters and even faster and more agile TIE interceptors would suffice.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

On what real basis are we saying that people don't mean what they say? If you've read Boba Fett's portion of the Tales of the Bounty Hunters, you'll know that novels don't count as canon.

What Han was vague, so it could be interpreted almost any way. Novels are canon unless they contradict the movies, Lucas himself even said so. The quote from DFR doesn't contradict what Han says at all--it, in fact, defines clearly what he is saying.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Lonestar
So? When in the entire franchise of Star Trek, has a FTL-moving warship fired on a slower-than-light target?

I eagerly await your cite.

Balance of Terror, for starters.