The Star Wars vs Star Trek Thread; because it's been awhile. - Page 8

Boris Godunov · March 28, 2003, 00:27

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Originally posted by Urban Ranger
If one can transport dead objects, why can't one transport live objects? They are no different physically.

If you were disassembled atom by atom and "beamed" across space and then reassembled, in the process you would die.

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I am not sure I understand your question. If a ship can engage FTL targets, certainly it can engage targets moving at sublight speeds.

Relative speeds, dear UR. It's easy if one is going FTL to engage a ship also going FTL, since your speeds would be relative.

Trying to engage a ship that isn't going FTL while going FTL would be impossible. You'd zip by them at 299,792,458 meters/second. How COULD you engage them? How could you even get a shot on them?

Lonestar · March 28, 2003, 00:29

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Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Balance of Terror, for starters.

IIRC, while the BoP was running on "Straight impulse" The Enterprise never actually engaged her while moving at warp.

Ming · March 28, 2003, 00:29

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Originally posted by Kramerman
How many of these weapons do they have? I would suppose not that many, allowing a wing (72) of TIE fighters (which are unshielded anyway) to overwhelm one of these ships.

You would be assuming wrong... ALL of their MANY capital ships have these kind of weapons. And they also have fleets of fighter craft as well with almost as powerful weapons... far more powerful than the wimp weapons carried by Tie Fighters...

Even together, both the Empire and Federation would be destroyed quickly by the shadows OR vorlons...

DinoDoc · March 28, 2003, 00:31

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Originally posted by Boris Godunov
What Han was vague,

What Han said was quite specific. The only vague part is the question of if he is refering to his regular space drive or his hyperdrive. If we are going to assume that light speed is different in the SW universe, then any and all comparisons between it and ST go out the window.

Lonestar · March 28, 2003, 00:33

If it wasn't for the fact that you were a mod, I'd mock you for slavishly hanging on to the "First Ones" Ming.

:: looks at watch ::

Well, gotta get up bright and early tomorrow! night-night for Lonestar!

:: runs like Hell ::

Kramerman · March 28, 2003, 00:34

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Originally posted by Ming

You would be assuming wrong... ALL of their MANY capital ships have these kind of weapons. And they also have fleets of fighter craft as well with almost as powerful weapons... far more powerful than the wimp weapons carried by Tie Fighters...

Even together, both the Empire and Federation would be destroyed quickly by the shadows OR vorlons...

I meant, how many of these weapons do they have PER ship... the ships could be singled out and overwhelmed. How quick and manueverable and numerous are their fighters?

Urban Ranger · March 28, 2003, 00:35

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Originally posted by Boris Godunov
If you were disassembled atom by atom and "beamed" across space and then reassembled, in the process you would die.

Die how? Assume that the states of atoms in an object remain unchanged in the process, I don't see how that can happen.

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Relative speeds, dear UR. It's easy if one is going FTL to engage a ship also going FTL, since your speeds would be relative.

Trying to engage a ship that isn't going FTL while going FTL would be impossible. You'd zip by them at 299,792,458 meters/second. How COULD you engage them? How could you even get a shot on them?

You know your speed. You know the target's speed. What's so difficult about it? If my ship move at 2c and an enemy ship move at 2c, the biggest difference is 4c. If my ship move at 2c while the target moves at sublight, the biggest difference is just 2.x c. If I can hit at 4c, why can't I hit at 2.x c? Since all weapons of ST starships move at FTL speeds, there's no problem hitting, either. That's precisely why they don't have lasers but phasers, since the beams tunnel through subspace.

DinoDoc · March 28, 2003, 00:36

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Originally posted by Ming
Even together, both the Empire and Federation would be destroyed quickly by the shadows OR vorlons...

And the Shadows along with the Vorlons would fall before the might of the Q. The First Ones have left the galaxy IIRC. Anyway, if you're going to bring up B5 the forces andf her allies field would be a more realistic comparison.

Ming · March 28, 2003, 00:36

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Originally posted by Lonestar
If it wasn't for the fact that you were a mod, I'd mock you for slavishly hanging on to the "First Ones" Ming.

Anybody that knows Bab 5 knows in their heart that the Empire or Federation wouldn't stand a chance against the First Ones... So they just ignore this simple fact and try to argue who has the fastest ships... like that really matters...

Boris Godunov · March 28, 2003, 00:39

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Originally posted by DinoDoc

What Han said was quite specific. The only vague part is the question of if he is refering to his regular space drive or his hyperdrive. If we are going to assume that light speed is different in the SW universe, then any and all comparisons between it and ST go out the window.

How was it specific? He said ".5 past lightspeed" .5 what? What if it meant .5 factors? Assuming it is a simple linear multiplier is silly, especially since the observed phenomenon in the films shows that hyperdrives operate at speeds vastly greater than the speed of light.

Urban Ranger · March 28, 2003, 00:41

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Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Where did you get that? The upper limit of estimated stars in the Milky Way is only 100 billion:

Check this page.

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Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Right. So despite logic, it could be smaller. There's a sound argument.

I wasn't saying your logic is wrong. I was disputing your assumptions.

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Originally posted by Boris Godunov
How could a sphere be 100,000 ly in diameter but only 10,000 ly thick?

The core is a sphere, Boris. Don't you know what the Milky Way shaped like? Sheesh.

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Originally posted by Boris Godunov
It takes Han a matter of hours to traverse from the outer rim (Tatooine) to the Core (Alderaan). That's at least 30,000 ly in hours.

He could be using an existing worm-hole.

Dr Strangelove · March 28, 2003, 00:45

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Originally posted by Boris Godunov

According to canonical sources (ANH novelization), the Empire alone controls 1 million star systems.

The only canonical source for Star Wars is George Lucas! WWGLS!

Dr Strangelove · March 28, 2003, 00:49

Anyway, Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, none of those guys would last a minute up against the Men in Black's buddies.

Boris Godunov · March 28, 2003, 00:49

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Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Check this page.

Estimates vary, it seems, which is a given considering the scope of what we're talking about. But even so, this doesn't further the debate any.

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I wasn't saying your logic is wrong. I was disputing your assumptions.

Then you'll have to explain how 400 billion stars could be compressed into a galaxy a few thousand lightyears across.

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The core is a sphere, Boris. Don't you know what the Milky Way shaped like? Sheesh.

Misread what you wrote as referring to the whole galaxy, mea culpa.

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He could be using an existing worm-hole.

First, nowhere in the SW canon are wormholes mentioned as any common form of interstellar travel (if at all). Second, Han specifically mentions that they have to have the right calculations before jumping to hyperspace to avoiding flying into suns and what not along the way. Such a thing would not be needed for a wormhole. Thirdly, in the film, we SEE them jump to hypserpace, and no wormhole was involved at all.

Oh, look at those straws you're grasping at...

Urban Ranger · March 28, 2003, 00:51

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Originally posted by Lonestar
IIRC, while the BoP was running on "Straight impulse" The Enterprise never actually engaged her while moving at warp.

The Romulan BoP could not move at warp speeds.

Anyway, since the episode took place when the Enterprise was patrolling the Neutral Zone along the Romulan border when they found colonies destroyed by some unknown attacks. And then they received a distressed signal. I can't remember if they ever dropped below warp speed the whole time.

DinoDoc · March 28, 2003, 00:52

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Originally posted by Boris Godunov
How was it specific? He said ".5 past lightspeed"

I prefer to follow the principle of parsimony when drawing conclusions from quote and not add self-serving assumptions.

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Assuming it is a simple linear multiplier is silly,

You've yet to establish any meaningful reason why.

[q]especially since the observed phenomenon in the films shows that hyperdrives operate at speeds vastly greater than the speed of light. [/QUOTE]
We're discussing regular space drives. Of course hyperdrives go much faster than light speed.

Kramerman · March 28, 2003, 01:06

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You've yet to establish any meaningful reason why.

yes he has. It has been shown that the SW space ships travel at vastly greater speeds than that of light. there for .5 past... obviously cannot mean only 50% faster, or however yall interpreted it.

DinoDoc · March 28, 2003, 01:18

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Originally posted by Kramerman
yes he has. It has been shown that the SW space ships travel at vastly greater speeds than that of light. there for .5 past...

We're discussing regular space drives. Of course hyperdrives go much faster than light speed.

Ikarus · March 28, 2003, 01:39

Star Wars is by far better solely because of episodes 1 and 2.

YEAH RIGHT,
but seriously Star Wars is much better than Star Trek. If the better were picked by their prequel, I'd still have to say Episode 1 and 2 are better than new Trek series, Enterprise. Anyways, here's my two cents...

Everything about Star Wars is better, except for Jean Luc Picard; he is one cool captain. But nonetheless, the realm of Star Wars is much more fantastic. In a previous post, I recall someone declaring that SW has no depth, but clearly the numerous side-novels explain much of what is not in the movies. Also, the fact that the characters are always adventuring in SW beats the boring action of the Enterprise crew at their consoles.

Likewise, all military units in SW are much cooler than their counterparts in ST.

Master Zen · March 28, 2003, 03:01

Battle of Endor

SIMPLY THE BEST FRIGGIN SPACE ACTION SEQUENCE IN THE HISTORY OF FILMMAKING. No wussy 1 on 1 battles or nuisance raids by pirates. This was a massive battle involving huge numbers of capital ships, fighters etc. IMO it is the single most awsome piece of action ever filmed.

Add to this that there was a ground battle going on and a cool lightsaber duel (though I must admit that Empire and Episode I's lightsaber fights were better) and there you have it. The best 45 minutes of movie you will ever get to see.

OliverFA · March 28, 2003, 07:25

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Originally posted by Ikarus
but seriously Star Wars is much better than Star Trek. If the better were picked by their prequel, I'd still have to say Episode 1 and 2 are better than new Trek series, Enterprise. Anyways, here's my two cents...

No way! Hoshi would never fall in love with a corrupt Jedi

And also thanks God, Enterprise has got rid of the annoying kids that populated TNG and DS9, while Episode 1 is just about one annoying kid!

OliverFA · March 28, 2003, 07:33

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Originally posted by Boris Godunov

According to canonical sources (ANH novelization), the Empire alone controls 1 million star systems.

That only turns the Empire into the evil big powerful enemy, like the B5 Shadows. the Borg or the Dominion. Either Sheridan, Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway or Archer would get rid of the Empire. not without a fight, but at the end they would win.

By the way, anyone else consider B5 "unofficial" Star Trek?

Boris Godunov · March 28, 2003, 09:59

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Originally posted by DinoDoc

I prefer to follow the principle of parsimony when drawing conclusions from quote and not add self-serving assumptions.

The "self-serving" assumption is supported by an official source, which I cited, which you seem to be ignoring.

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We're discussing regular space drives. Of course hyperdrives go much faster than light speed.

Well, we're actually discussing what the meaning ".5" was, whether it is referring to hyperdrive speed or sublight speed. The DFR quote supports it being a way of measuring hyperspace speed--not as a linear multiplier, but as a factor of some sort. That quote indicates .5 = 1.2million c. That is what the SW hyperdrives appear to function at.

Boris Godunov · March 28, 2003, 10:02

Quote:

Originally posted by OliverFA
That only turns the Empire into the evil big powerful enemy, like the B5 Shadows. the Borg or the Dominion. Either Sheridan, Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway or Archer would get rid of the Empire. not without a fight, but at the end they would win.

Yeah, the "Good vs. Evil, so Good Must Win" line. Since the Federation has consistently behaved like a military junta and has even attempted genocide to win a war, I don't think Fed hands are so clean here.

Regardless, such notions are not part of typical SW vs. ST debates, as it relies on deus ex machina. If the strategic position of the Federation is so weak that they can only rely on "We have the good guys, so we'll win!" or "Q will come save us!," then the Feds have lost.

Looks like Earth will make a nice Imperial HQ for the Alpha Quadrant!

Starchild · March 28, 2003, 10:16

Go Ming for supporting the B5 crowd!

What do you want?

Boris Godunov · March 28, 2003, 10:19

How fitting that the first four letters of that show are "Baby." Fits the fan mentality perfectly.

OliverFA · March 28, 2003, 12:25

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Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Yeah, the "Good vs. Evil, so Good Must Win" line.

In fact what I was meaning is "the Federation is used to face much more poweful enemies and win them because of their superior intelect".

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Since the Federation has consistently behaved like a military junta and has even attempted genocide to win a war, I don't think Fed hands are so clean here.

Er... Have you seen the same Star Trek as I have seen?

Starchild · March 28, 2003, 12:35

When was the last time you heard about an election in the Federation?

Boris Godunov · March 28, 2003, 12:48

The Federation's facing of much more powerful enemies in the past must be balanced against comaring those enemies with the Empire. The Empire dwarfs even the Dominion in terms of scope, indutrial capacity, speed, technology and firepower. Remember that the SW Galaxy was united in a Republic 25,000 years prior to the Empire's existence. So the Empire has a technological advantage over the Federation of well over 25 millenia.

And yes I've seen the same ST. Let's talk about their genocidal plans, shall we? Infecting the Borg, infecting the Founders...gee, what a nice way to win a war! The Empire may be ruthless in conquest, but there's no instances of it using biological weapons to try to wipe out an entire species.

The Federation is, as far as I can tell, a junta wherein personal freedoms are at least as limited as they are under the Empire. So I don't think Federation colonists, once subjected to Imperial rule, would find there being much difference in their way of life.

DinoDoc · March 28, 2003, 12:59

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Originally posted by Boris Godunov
gee, what a nice way to win a war! The Empire may be ruthless in conquest, but there's no instances of it using biological weapons to try to wipe out an entire species.

They just prefer to destroy entire planets.