First Woman American Soldier Feared Dead

DanS · March 27, 2003, 14:08

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003132548,00.html

MichaeltheGreat · March 27, 2003, 14:13

She may be "lucky," if you catch my drift, if she's dead.

I really hope in the occupation phase, we can identify the units and individuals who handled those troops, so they can be dealt with appropriately.

DanS · March 27, 2003, 14:15

I catch your drift fully.

There will be a war crimes tribunal.

Gibsie · March 27, 2003, 14:33

Linking to an article from The Sun should be a bloody crime. That's the first thing I think when I see a story from the Sun, rather than the sympathy I should be feeling.

monkspider · March 27, 2003, 14:33

Ahhh, you silly conservatives, always so ready to return an eye for an eye.
Her death is without question a tragedy, just as all the deaths that this war have caused are.

SlowwHand · March 27, 2003, 14:34

If women join, they know there are risks.
There are certainly some places worse than others to take the risks.

Unemployment is surely a motivation to join.

There's a woman here in town that was in Reserves, seeing it as extra money.
She got called up, and freaked out.

DarthVeda · March 27, 2003, 14:36

How can there be a war crimes tribunal if all the guilty parties are dead?

Inverse Icarus · March 27, 2003, 14:45

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider
Ahhh, you silly conservatives, always so ready to return an eye for an eye.
Her death is without question a tragedy, just as all the deaths that this war have caused are.

it appears somebody didn't catch the drift...

Starchild · March 27, 2003, 14:45

I'm vaguely sure this is going to turn me into Starchild Flambé (add a dash more brandy hun, I'll forgive as I cook), but how is this more tragic than if a 19 year old man died? I mean, yes, it's horrible and tragic, but why does it being a woman make it more tragic?

monkspider · March 27, 2003, 14:47

Quote:

Originally posted by UberKruX

it appears somebody didn't catch the drift...

How so, comrade?

DarthVeda · March 27, 2003, 14:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Starchild
I'm vaguely sure this is going to turn me into Starchild Flambé (add a dash more brandy hun, I'll forgive as I cook), but how is this more tragic than if a 19 year old man died? I mean, yes, it's horrible and tragic, but why does it being a woman make it more tragic?

Because women aren't allowed into front-line combat. It is an exception to the rule when one of them is killed in combat.

MichaeltheGreat · March 27, 2003, 14:48

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider
Ahhh, you silly conservatives, always so ready to return an eye for an eye.
Her death is without question a tragedy, just as all the deaths that this war have caused are.

No, some deaths in this war will not be tragic. Maybe someday you can talk with people who've been on the receiving end of this regime, and get a sense of what their experiences have been.

The one thing I really hope, and it's not likely to happen with this administration or any future ones (or most other countries in this world) is that in the future, we do not support this type of brutal, dictatorial regime for reasons of geopolitical expediency.

That's a separate issue though from dealing with the removal of this regime and it's henchmen.

DarthVeda · March 27, 2003, 14:50

Quote:

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

The one thing I really hope, and it's not likely to happen with this administration or any future ones (or most other countries in this world) is that in the future, we do not support this type of brutal, dictatorial regime for reasons of geopolitical expediency.

Saudi Arabia, anyone?

DanS · March 27, 2003, 14:51

but how is this more tragic than if a 19 year old man died

The circumstances of her death. This was with the supply train that was ambushed, and had executed soldiers (bullets through forehead) shown on Iraqi national TV.

MichaeltheGreat · March 27, 2003, 14:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Starchild
I'm vaguely sure this is going to turn me into Starchild Flambé (add a dash more brandy hun, I'll forgive as I cook), but how is this more tragic than if a 19 year old man died? I mean, yes, it's horrible and tragic, but why does it being a woman make it more tragic?

Most deaths in this war are tragic - not the regime *******s, but civilians, certainly, and ordinary soldiers on both sides as well.

A 19 year old male infantryman knows and is trained for the risks. It's still tragic, but it's a bit different than the 19 year old (male or female) who is a clerk, or joined to learn a trade as a mechanic or something.

This soldier wasn't a fighter, she was a young kid, a clerk, from an economically depressed part of the US, where the Army was a shot at a trade and money to go to college and get a better life for herself. It sucks when any of them die, but she was about as far removed as a threat as anyone in the military could be.

Boris Godunov · March 27, 2003, 14:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Starchild
I'm vaguely sure this is going to turn me into Starchild Flambé (add a dash more brandy hun, I'll forgive as I cook), but how is this more tragic than if a 19 year old man died? I mean, yes, it's horrible and tragic, but why does it being a woman make it more tragic?

Because, silly, women are weak and fragile and must be protected at all costs...

Starchild is asking if the death of a woman is more tragic than the death of man would be, under the same circumstances. My answer is no, of course not.

MichaeltheGreat · March 27, 2003, 14:54

Quote:

Originally posted by DarthVeda

Saudi Arabia, anyone?

I don't like those bastards, either.

SlowwHand · March 27, 2003, 14:55

Fuels, Armory, all part of Supply.

I think it's something like for every soldier in combat, there are 10 in support.

MichaeltheGreat · March 27, 2003, 14:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Because, silly, women are weak and fragile and must be protected at all costs...

Starchild is asking if the death of a woman is more tragic than the death of man would be, under the same circumstances. My answer is no, of course not.

Moron, most likely she didn't get something as quick as a bullet in the forehead. Gangrape of female prisoners is far from unheard of - it really depends on who had custody of these soldiers at the time they were executed, and beyond.

Starchild · March 27, 2003, 15:00

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS
but how is this more tragic than if a 19 year old man died

The circumstances of her death. This was with the supply train that was ambushed, and had executed soldiers (bullets through forehead) shown on Iraqi national TV.

What about the rest of the soldiers on that supply train (I assume those things aren't just manned/protected by one person). Is her death more tragic than their's? If no, why single out her as the "tragic" death? If no, what made her death more tragic than the others?

People die in war. It's up there with the sky is blue, things fall down, and I'm fabulous as one of the few universal truths. I'm hesitant to call one death more overwhelmingly tragic than another.

With exceptions of course. Saddam can bite my designer jean clad, tai-bo firmed ass. I won't shed much tears over him.

monkspider · March 27, 2003, 15:01

Quote:

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
No, some deaths in this war will not be tragic.

Which ones are you referring to Mikey? If you are referring to, say, fanatical Sadaam supporters, for example, I must strongly disagree. It is unfortunate that they have been misled as to support an evil despot, but there are many in this war who have been misled, and I do not wish death upon any of them. The deaths of these people will be tragedies, regardless of the circumstances, and killing them will never truly get us anywhere in the long term.

Quote:

The one thing I really hope, and it's not likely to happen with this administration or any future ones (or most other countries in this world) is that in the future, we do not support this type of brutal, dictatorial regime for reasons of geopolitical expediency.

This I agree with wholeheartedly Mikey, and I would say that you will be pleasently surprised one day.

Starchild · March 27, 2003, 15:03

Ah, MTG's clarification as to the Iraqi, err....procedures for female soldiers is a valid reason why her death would be more tragic. She may have suffered more thus more tragedy.

SlowwHand · March 27, 2003, 15:04

I think people with no frame of reference, shouldn't speak.

alva · March 27, 2003, 15:05

#a mad world....a mad world...#

Why do they always send soldiers into war that are so young?

Boris Godunov · March 27, 2003, 15:08

Quote:

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

Moron, most likely she didn't get something as quick as a bullet in the forehead. Gangrape of female prisoners is far from unheard of - it really depends on who had custody of these soldiers at the time they were executed, and beyond.

First, I think calling me a moron is uncalled for, and under the current moderator policy of being stricter on personal attacks, entirely inappropriate coming from you.

Second, I was simply addressing the issue, which Starchild raised, of whether or not a woman's death is, in and of itself, more tragic than a man's. I was not addressing the specific manner of her death. If a man was gangraped and butchered (which also isn't unheard of), it would be just as terrible, IMO.

Her death is tragic no matter what, because a young life has been snuffed out by others before its time.

Starchild · March 27, 2003, 15:18

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
I think people with no frame of reference, shouldn't speak.

Sloww, moi petite prince, is this directed against me? I'll admit to having no experience of the military or war but I know tragedy and death. I'm just asking what makes one death more tragic than another.

monkspider · March 27, 2003, 15:24

On the issue of men vs women's death, I am in total agreement with Boris and StarC. A woman's death is not any more tragic than a man's. But this is pretty self-evident I would think.

SlowwHand · March 27, 2003, 15:24

Actually, no it wasn't directed to you.
It was to the "Mikey" speaker.

Darlin', you know I wouldn't speak that way to you.

monkspider · March 27, 2003, 15:28

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Actually, no it wasn't directed to you.
It was to the "Mikey" speaker.

Darlin', you know I wouldn't speak that way to you.

What frame of reference do you feel that I lack, Slowwy darlin?

Gatekeeper · March 27, 2003, 15:28

Quote:

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
... most likely she didn't get something as quick as a bullet in the forehead. Gangrape of female prisoners is far from unheard of - it really depends on who had custody of these soldiers at the time they were executed, and beyond.

I was hoping it wouldn't be necessary for some folks to have it spelled out to them as to exactly what her fate might have been. In her case, a bullet would have been quicker ...

Gatekeeper