The Apolyton Science Fiction Book Club: Ender's Game - Page 2

mactbone · April 5, 2003, 21:52

Hmmm, you might be reading more into it than Card intended. In my mind he doesn't make female characters distinct until the last couple of books in the series, until then they are just males with different organs.

I'm also curious about Mormon influences. Personally, I'm largely ignorant of the whole religion other than knowing that a lot of people here look down on it.

So has anyone read the short story? Was it a quick version of the novel, or a single event from the novel?

I'm asking because in my Sci-Fi lit. class we read the short story "Blood Music" by Greg Bear and then read the novel and he changed the ending, expanded the story, and changed the it from first-person to third-person.

JohnT · April 5, 2003, 21:54

I kinda got the same impression from the quoted passage, Mac.

Static Universe · April 5, 2003, 21:59

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
I kinda got the same impression from the quoted passage, Mac.

It may be that we're more aware of such things now, whatever that means. I'm not sure if I had read this book in 86, the same impression would have immediately leapt to mind.

TheGuitarist · April 5, 2003, 22:12

Quote:

So has anyone read the short story? Was it a quick version of the novel, or a single event from the novel?

I read a portion of the short story on Card's website. It basically summarized Ender's first practice with his army, his confrontation with Bean, and his domination of the other armies in battle after battle. I don't think it continues to Ender's experiences at Command School.

Static Universe: I agree with you. The way Valentine follows Peter does add another complication to the novel, but I'm not sure it's totally realistic.

I first read the book in seventh grade (age 12). I thought it was realistic at that time, and I still think it's realistic. I also still think the book is awesome, definitely one of the best science fiction books I've ever read.

As for the rest of the series, the sequels to Ender's Game are a bit disappointing, but I found the Bean series to be entertaining in a different way from the original novel. I'm not sure Card will ever be able to create another novel with the same cross-age-group appeal and the same incredible uniqueness.

Nubclear · April 5, 2003, 22:23

Quote:

Originally posted by MacTBone
I'm also curious about Mormon influences. Personally, I'm largely ignorant of the whole religion other than knowing that a lot of people here look down on it.

Women, blacks, and gays aren't capable of anything. Sex is evil. Outside influences are evil. Give money to the church to be righteous. Convert everyone you can.

mactbone · April 5, 2003, 22:34

Right, OK, so how does that fit in with the book?

JohnT · April 5, 2003, 23:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Tassadar5000

Women, blacks, and gays aren't capable of anything. Sex is evil. Outside influences are evil. Give money to the church to be righteous. Convert everyone you can.

If you have nothing worthwhile to contribute, please take your bigotry elsewhere and leave this thread.

korn469 · April 5, 2003, 23:36

My favorite parts of this book was Dr. Device, and the actual space warfare game the kids played.

I have wanted a Dr. Device type weapon in an RTS game forever! Maybe someday they'll make a game with it in the game. Just think of the nuances that would add to the game.

I didn't really get the whole computer game featuring the giant. How did the bugs hack into the system? What was the real point of that part of the book?

When I first read the book, I didn't think Peter molested Valentine, just simply hurt her in the same way as he did Ender, just more of it...but who knows. I guess Card would need to sort that one out. I haven't read any of the other books in the series.

Nubclear · April 6, 2003, 00:24

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT

If you have nothing worthwhile to contribute, please take your bigotry elsewhere and leave this thread.

John, it's not good to show that your reading comprehension is below that of a 6th grader level in a thread about a BOOK.

He said he was ignorant of what the Mormon religion. I'm simply filling him in.

SnowFire · April 6, 2003, 00:36

There was a thread on Ender’s Game waaaaaaay back on the Firaxis forums (after the SMAC forums had closed, and some went to ‘Poly, some went to ACOL, and some went to Firaxis. 4 years ago sounds good.). I wish I had saved that review there, it’d be more fresh than doing it again now.
Anyway, I picked up my copy of Ender’s Game for 5 dollars or some other ridiculously low price as part of a promotion for Ender’s Shadow (which I did not buy). A fun short read it was, but it does have its issues. First, with regards to the whole Peter/Valentine bits that people are whining about: they were the best in the novel, as far as I was concerned. Sure, it may be unrealistic that they conquer the world so quickly or that they maintain anonymity for so long, but I don’t care. They’re super-geniuses, darn it. I liked the whole “you are who you pretend to be” stuff as well; in some weird way, Locke & Demosthenes were way more influential than Peter and Valentine. Never mind their real selves. If they had more stuff on it, I wouldn’t complain, but I’m not reading the other books as some have suggested being that I’ve been told they’re hideous.
As for the Ender part… I don’t know. First off, I think the whole “promote Ender and people will hate him” thing gets tiring after awhile. Eventually people learn to respect somebody and stop the darned bullying. Especially considering the thing that JohnT mentioned- they’re a flock of young adults with a weird propensity toward bullying the protagonist and making life miserable for him.
Secondly, I’d like to say that for a military academy with such apparent “I’ve read the plot” style intelligence (we allow our children to do horrible things to each other to make them really really want to succeed! Mwahaha!), they’re idiots with regards to tactics before Ender got there. The kind of stuff he introduces is absolutely elementary anybody who’s played Myth online- or heck, WarCraft. Horribly outnumbered? If there’s an objective, of course you go for it! That’s your only way to win! This is something that’s been done a billion times because it’s fun. Rush tactics? Elementary! Done in any game! I mean, come on, this is stuff that’s been around since the days of Julius Caesar. You’re not going to convince me that Ender is a super-genius when you surround him with such apparent morons that he has to point out the obvious tactic.
With regards to the ending, I’ll agree with Wraith… the fact that the book had to end soon suggested that this “testing” that they’re so worked up over might be a little bit more than that.

Tassadar: No, you confusing them with other groups, especially the "give us all your money" part. I will say that one of my friends found an absolutely hilarious pamphlet from the early 60’s by the Mormons, explaining their views on this whole blacks thing; you see, blacks aren’t bad, they’re just inferior to all of us because they had the wrong set of souls born into them. But they’re fully free to recognize this and join us for their betterment…
Like I said, this was from the Mormons themselves, so don’t jump on me for this. Although obviously they’ve changed their tune nowadays.

Nubclear · April 6, 2003, 00:42

Quote:

Tassadar: No, you confusing them with other groups,

I bet. As we all know, Ohio is the Mormon Capital of the world. But here in Utah......All we have are atheists here

Mr. President · April 6, 2003, 01:25

I've only read Xenocide. Am I a freak because I didn't sympathize with the pequeninos?

Eli · April 6, 2003, 02:23

Quote:

Am I a freak because I didn't sympathize with the pequeninos?

Is there some drawing of them on the net? I never managed to visualize the piggies.

JohnT · April 6, 2003, 08:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Tassadar5000

John, it's not good to show that your reading comprehension is below that of a 6th grader level in a thread about a BOOK.

He said he was ignorant of what the Mormon religion. I'm simply filling him in.

Tassadar, STFU. I repeat myself: take your bigotry elsewhere. It is totally off-topic and irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I might remind you that your response had nothing to do with the subject matter, nor with the question that you, supposedly, answered*.

*Which was, if you bother to recall, "are there any mormon influences in the novel Ender's Game?"

Wraith · April 6, 2003, 10:00

--"How did the bugs hack into the system?"

I read that as them "hacking" into Ender's mind, not into the game. Remember the string of nightmares he had?

Wraith
"How did you end up making a 2000 horse-power cyborg out of an accident victim?"
"My hand slipped."
-- ("Prefectural Earth Defense Force")

JohnT · April 6, 2003, 10:18

That's it, Wraith.

Eli · April 6, 2003, 10:33

Quote:

--"How did the bugs hack into the system?"
I read that as them "hacking" into Ender's mind, not into the game. Remember the string of nightmares he had?

And using the program as a bridge to connect them and Ender. That's how Jane got created and bla bla [insert lots of philotic nonsense here].

Wraith · April 6, 2003, 13:08

--"And using the program as a bridge to connect them and Ender. "

No, they used the ansible as the bridge to connect them and Ender. The just pulled the Giant's Drink images from his mind to make their last message to him.

Wraith
I am the Imp of the Perverse - Knowing this won't help you, either.

Eli · April 6, 2003, 13:23

Quote:

No, they used the ansible as the bridge to connect them and Ender. The just pulled the Giant's Drink images from his mind to make their last message to him.

The ansible as a physical bridge for instanstaneous communication, but I remember that Jane's aiua was something like a bridge between them.

But then it's all so weird that I could easily be wrong.

Static Universe · April 6, 2003, 18:27

Who's Jane?

reismark · April 6, 2003, 18:50

Just a little note to the people who hate Bean from reading Ender's Shadow: You really need to continue on and read the second book in the series, Shadow of the Hegemon. It finally gets Bean out of Ender's shadow and explains why he rules the universe so much.

Static Universe · April 6, 2003, 19:00

Quote:

Originally posted by reismark
It finally gets Bean out of Ender's shadow and explains why he rules the universe so much.

And this is a good thing?

Spoiler for those who haven't read Ender's shadow.

Spoiler:

Edit: put in spoiler

Wraith · April 6, 2003, 19:05

--"Who's Jane?"

A character that doesn't show up until the second book of the series. Makes me pretty sure she's not the one who's doing the bridging between Ender and the buggers in the first one

Unless the author is indulging himself in a bit of revisionist storytelling, of course.

Wraith
For every vision there is an equal and opposite revision

Static Universe · April 6, 2003, 19:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Wraith
--"Who's Jane?"

A character that doesn't show up until the second book of the series. Makes me pretty sure she's not the one who's doing the bridging between Ender and the buggers in the first one

Unless the author is indulging himself in a bit of revisionist storytelling, of course.

Wraith
For every vision there is an equal and opposite revision

Ah, thanks.

It wasn't clear, but I assumed the buggers were at least doing some hacking into the system since there seemed to be something odd about the fantasy game that Ender played. Even the Battle School staff noticed it as wrong, but Card doesn't go into detail, so that's just my take on it.

Jon Miller · April 6, 2003, 20:00

I thought that Ender's game was great

unfortunately Card seems to go for revision

I think that there was some in the later books (But not a lot)

but I think there is a lot in the new Bean Trilogy

that is why I am not into them

Jon Miller

JohnT · April 13, 2003, 11:21

Any other comments?

St Leo · April 13, 2003, 12:01

I just bought Shadow of the Hegemon.

JohnT · April 13, 2003, 12:13

Better read Red Mars first.

Carolus Rex · April 13, 2003, 12:40

Yeah, I'd like to add my two cents.

I've read Ender's Game a couple of times, I think it's great. I also enjoyed Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide and Children of the Mind, although I rate them below EG. When I got to know about Ender's Shadow the cynical part of me got the upper hand. Writer running out of ideas goes back to his major hit to squeeze some more bucks-kind of thing... Not surprisingly, I liked it a lot since we're back were it all began...

About how Card portrays children. First, it disturbed me. Why didn't he make them a little bit older, making it easier to accept? I quickly let that feeling go, or rather, I got too absorbed by the book to let it annoy me. And why should they be more realistic? It's science fiction, the kids are geniuses and Ender's alienation and isolation at Battle School is superbly well-conceived.

His increasing loneliness as the responsibility weighs heavier and heavier on him... The change of rules, the increased difficulty, each test he successfully passes... None of it brings him relief, it only singles him out even more... The way how Card decribes this in the book is outstanding...

I had more difficulties accepting Bean's early story in Ender's Shadow, although he's genitically manipulated (IIRC?). Surviving in a toilet tank before the age of one? Science fiction in action...

Carolus

CyberGnu · April 24, 2003, 06:32

I just finished Enders Game, and I'm left with the same feeling I get after eating a bag of potato chips... It was great while it lasted, but right now I wonder why I did it...

Snowfires post was spot on. Ender isn't really a genious, but apparently the only guy with an IQ above room temperature (Celsius). Warfare has apparently regressed to the Napolenic area, even though they have fast firing weapons...

And while I could understand it if the instructors told the kids that formations were the only way to do it because that would simulate fleet combat, Card never used that excuse...

For space combat, I would recommend the Honor series by David Weber (although I'm seriously starting to hate the main character), and for the "training for war" experience I much prefered "Starship Troopers".