what to do with the nonproducers

MPatton · April 2, 2003, 12:25

you know those cities that make 1 shield and 1 commerce?

MPatton · April 2, 2003, 12:33

I basically actually do a little of everything except the last one. I basically try to achieve WLtKD and while I do that I forest clear forest clear. until I get a temple and an aqueduct then I just switch em to wealth and if they start producing and get the corruption under control then they are regular cities. I guess another option would be to send antiquated units and either A disband or B garrisson them there.

Worthingtons · April 2, 2003, 12:34

Well the forest trick no longer works, but what you can do is,. if you are need of making things there you can disband useless troops there, In my empires i dont to have these cities anyway unless they're sitting on a resource of some kind....

Arrian · April 2, 2003, 13:26

It totally depends. Even with huge empires I can usually get just about any city up from total corruption (95%). I look at it like a late-game challenge to get my empire as efficient as I can.

So I pump money into far-flung cities, buying courthouses, marketplaces, aqueducts, policestations, factories, etc. You might be surprised at how much you can get out of those cities if you put in enough work (gold). It's not technically "worth it" in the sense that you will not recoup the money you spend, so it something to do while playing out a game you're clearly going to win.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · April 2, 2003, 13:40

I would have to agree with Arrian. A little socialism, just like in the real world, can work wonders. Sink a little money in and that city will at least produce defensive units for newly conquered cities later.

Of course, if you're assured of victory and you don't want to waste the time defending or micromanaging said city... BURN, BABY, BURN!

(I mean, of course, raze the city)

Also... as many workers as possible! Why not?

Nor Me · April 2, 2003, 13:46

If you have the luxuries for WLKD, wait for them to grow to size 6 and see what happens. Since it's always worth buying luxuries if you can, there are few strategic choices with this. Unless you have to rush a temple to do that, that is.

Very early on, I would try to build warriors and pop-rush settlers. For example, playing AU207 I got an advanced tribe close to the capital of the 3rd closest civ on a huge map. Minsk built 2 warriors, pop-rushed 19 shields on a spearman, immeadiately switched to a settler and was given to another civ when that was completed. This caused the 2 warriors and the settler to teleport to Moscow where they were actually useful. That's reasonable for 31 turns in a distant city.

Mid-game, I would make them a worker factory. They only need 1 square with 2 food to produce a worker every 10 turns. Even when you have enough workers to improve all the worked tiles and the military roads are all in place, you can still add workers to productive cities still under 6/12/20 pop.

Later I'd use whatever means necessary to get an adueduct, marketplace and even granaries and happiness improvements to draft as many conscripts as possible out of them. If there are no suicide missions available and you don't want to pay the upkeep, you're going to get at least 20 shields from disbanding them. Disbanding multiple conscripts railroaded in from hopeless cities for marketplaces, courthouses, etc. in recoverably corrupt cities can pay off.

Aeson · April 2, 2003, 13:46

Irrigation and Specialists.

epics · April 2, 2003, 13:53

yeah, wealth and specialists
...or I just might build an ISBM. Only 600 turns !!!, it would be ready... hmmmm... when I reach to Alpha Centauri

badams52 · April 2, 2003, 16:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeson
Irrigation and Specialists.

the only way to go

Dominae · April 2, 2003, 17:51

Aeson and badams beat me to it:

Irrigation, Specialists, maybe Aqueducts if you've got the cash to spare.

Dominae

nationalist · April 2, 2003, 20:52

I do the Arrian thing, disband units in them to create Courthouses, Police Stations, etc.

Catt · April 2, 2003, 23:30

Aeson, badams52, and Dominae beat me to it

-- irrigation and specialists. I will rush a culture-building if I want the border expansion (and thus live with the 1 gpt upkeep for the building).

But I found this a good bit of advice:

Quote:

Originally posted by Nor Me
If you have the luxuries for WLKD, wait for them to grow to size 6 and see what happens. Since it's always worth buying luxuries if you can, there are few strategic choices with this.

WLTKD operates as a courthouse or police station with respect to shields (waste, instead of corruption), and waiting for some turns to see if WLTKD actually improves the situation can save the rush-cost of rushing a courthouse and the micromanagement headache of subsequently selling the courthouse if it is ineffective (or the gpt upkeep if it is ineffectual but you don't go to the trouble of scrapping your newly-purchased improvement).

A rudimentary understanding of the detailed corruption formula - or extended play experience - will eventually guide you to the answer to the question "Will a couthouse make this city worthwhile as a producer?"

Catt

badams52 · April 3, 2003, 00:56

Another thing you can do is use the corruption caltulator to see if the city in question is at that 95% or not:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...65#post1149665

And Alexman, the resident corruption guru's original post about corruption can be found here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=46801

Tattila the Hun · April 3, 2003, 06:15

Well, I usually take some conscripts from "red" (population) cities and use them to rush courthouses...

vulture · April 3, 2003, 06:40

Aeson, badams52, Dominae and Catt beat me to it

Irrigate, use the extra food to support specialists (tax or science), and I tend to set the cities to wealth (sometimes rushing a temple in them). You can get a lot of cash (or science) from this.

ThePlagueRat · April 3, 2003, 07:16

If I have many other cities and a sufficient army: Wealth.

ThePlagueRat · April 3, 2003, 07:28

I just came up with this idea now...

This issue is just like in RL. Remember when the Soviets built these production cities in Siberia? It was absolutely no nice place to settle down for. Nevertheless, they managed to populate this region with several cities. Their planned economy was able to give residents of such places higher wages and lower taxes. So they encouraged growth... You see, Siberia has many strategic resources. Soviet was able to make a nonproducer village into a relatively productional one.

In Civ3 you can try to do the same.

It's just a matter of playstyle. I think Communism should be modified to benefit from such a playstyle, so Communism should have a higher growth rate on cities below 7 or so. (crappy growth on communism is implemented now) And factories could reduce some waste too.
Then an economic penalty could balance it out... It would be more realistic that way.

Yahweh Sabaoth · April 3, 2003, 12:10

I think this "state planning" is already well represented in Civ... by cash and conscription. I do think that you should be able to spend cash under communism, in addition to killing your people (the real Soviets did operate, slightly, in the international monetary system).

Globalizers always want to shut down factories, etc., in third world countries... "far flung investments" is a term some use... because they are essentially "productive" but non-profitable, i.e., a drag on the international credit line.

In Civ, if you spend a lot of money on courthouses, police stations, and factories, you can make a city "work" but there's always a question of whether that city is worth the money you've put in to it.

The question helped, in a large part, bring down the Soviet Union.

cumi · April 7, 2003, 03:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
So I pump money into far-flung cities, buying courthouses, marketplaces, aqueducts, policestations, factories, etc. You might be surprised at how much you can get out of those cities if you put in enough work (gold). It's not technically "worth it" in the sense that you will not recoup the money you spend, so it something to do while playing out a game you're clearly going to win.

I agree totally. Factories, Solar-plants etc. And if I have some highly productive cities, I can build MA in 2 turns, I use them to feed these cities. I can make a kind of nice periferial cities from those non-productive ones. These cities can be helpful during the war. With the highly productive ones I build MA or MI in 2 turns, with the "periferial" cities I build Artilery or Missile or something not so so so important, but stil helpful.

Or, I can produce a culture on my far borders, witch will help me to get enemy cities using cultural flip. If I am leting those non-productive cities produce only 1 gold/per turn, I can easily loose them in the same way.

But of course, this cost a huge ammount of gold, disbanded units etc.

Simply, I can not watch a looser city in my empire...

badams52 · April 7, 2003, 12:40

Hmmm, I kind of wonder if were talking the same language here. Alexman can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is a point where no matter how many improvements you make in a city, it will never get above the 95% corruption minimum. Of course, this will only apply to large empires but in these cities, I find it useless to try and get something useful out of them. 20 shields still leaves 19 in waste and 1 in production. 21-40 shields give you 2. And this is after courthouses, WLTKD, and a police station. Do you guys still try and make this kind of city productive?

Yahweh Sabaoth · April 7, 2003, 13:53

Quote:

Originally posted by badams52
Hmmm, I kind of wonder if were talking the same language here. Alexman can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is a point where no matter how many improvements you make in a city, it will never get above the 95% corruption minimum. Of course, this will only apply to large empires but in these cities, I find it useless to try and get something useful out of them. 20 shields still leaves 19 in waste and 1 in production. 21-40 shields give you 2. And this is after courthouses, WLTKD, and a police station. Do you guys still try and make this kind of city productive?

YES

Arrian · April 7, 2003, 16:31

If a courthouse + PS + WLTKD resulted in no improvement, I would give up.

First off, you have to have a really big empire before you run into that... in fact, you are probably near the domination limit (at least on a standard map... and keep in mind my city spacing is 4 to 5 tile).

If a city is on my continent, I will definitely spend money improving it. I will also certainly try with the closest cities I capture (or build myself after some razing) overseas. If the first couple I build up show real improvement, I will start work on cities farther out. And so on, until I run into true lost causes. At that point, I will just make sure they are happy.

If I have time tonight, I will dig up a save that I think illustrates my point...

-Arrian

Catt · April 7, 2003, 17:02

Quote:

Originally posted by badams52
Hmmm, I kind of wonder if were talking the same language here. Alexman can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is a point where no matter how many improvements you make in a city, it will never get above the 95% corruption minimum. Of course, this will only apply to large empires but in these cities, I find it useless to try and get something useful out of them. 20 shields still leaves 19 in waste and 1 in production. 21-40 shields give you 2. And this is after courthouses, WLTKD, and a police station. Do you guys still try and make this kind of city productive?

Only in rare circumstances, and then only for a variation of "UP" -- not for strategic in-game reasons.

Since WLTKD only affects waste (shields), and since I generally won't care about shields so far out on the fringes, if a courthouse and WLTKD doesn't show real waste reduction, I'll sell the courthouse and doom the city to the ranks of the "nonproducers" more often than not (in this example the WLTKD acts like a police station for waste). It is simply not cost effective to pay the upkeep on courthouses, police stations, marketplaces, banks, libraries, uni's, etc. if the city is only giving back a few uncorrupted gold per turn.

Catt

Arrian · April 7, 2003, 21:02

As Catt says, this is the type of thing you do with Ultimate Power. It's a perfectionist thing I do at the end of such a game.

A screenshot:

Arrian · April 7, 2003, 21:07

Here is the save.

There are a bunch of cities "over there" that I've gotten to be reasonably productive. The ones closest to my continent, clearly. But even Karakorum, which is inland a bit, can muster a jet fighter in 4 turns.

There are also some that seem beyond help (the ones up near Egypt & in former Celtic lands, for instance).

And yes, clearly Rome is a commercial civ, and thus gets some more cities before hitting max corruption.

-Arrian

p.s. By the way, this may just be the most aesthetically pleasing empire I've ever created.

Cruddy · April 15, 2003, 01:03

Erm... what's a non-producers? If your empire is THAT big, it's time to switch to Communism... isn't it?

Sorry if I'm being lame...

Assuming you can't tolerate that, then build workers, rebuild them into other cities and draft them. A conscript mech infantry is worth 27 shields, wheras a pop rush citizen is only worth 20... strange.

Theseus · April 19, 2003, 17:40

I play more like Arrian... to the extent I roleplay in Civ, I tend to think that I have a responsiblity to every town to "be all it can be."

What I've been learning in AU 207 is what I call "food power." In addition to producing and disbanding conscripts from my core cities, I try to make sure that my fringe cities have granaries, aquaducts and *maximum* food production.

Late in the game, drafting every time one of these cities hits pop 12, the conversion of food to shields is stunning.

Yahweh Sabaoth · April 21, 2003, 10:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
I play more like Arrian... to the extent I roleplay in Civ, I tend to think that I have a responsiblity to every town to "be all it can be."

What I've been learning in AU 207 is what I call "food power." In addition to producing and disbanding conscripts from my core cities, I try to make sure that my fringe cities have granaries, aquaducts and *maximum* food production.

Late in the game, drafting every time one of these cities hits pop 12, the conversion of food to shields is stunning.

Ah, most clever...

MPatton · April 21, 2003, 12:01

I like turning em into specialist. The question remains is how to get a aqueduct so you can get to a city size of 12. Getting a hospital is probably not worth it. The ones that have many mountains and hills are bad or other non food producing place. The nonproducers on grasslands are the most effective. Best to maximize food output and have specialist. When all done put on wealth and taxmen. My current civilization is make 200 from taxmen. And no city is friggin huge.