Damn the French they have gone TOO far! - Page 4

Pekka · April 2, 2003, 18:38

But for the actual topic here, I found this act absolutely disgusting. How can someone do that to hurt others? A bit extreme? Everyone should just keep within the rules of attacks, like no harrasing of the dead.

Spiffor · April 2, 2003, 18:39

Quote:

Originally posted by cyclotron7

That seems clearly self-evident to me, so I see no reason to waste time pointing it out to the French. Why is it we need to convince you of anything?

I answered Ned, who wondered how to put the French left side by side with the US again. Now, I understand the US doesn't care of the French left. After all, the Bush admin didn't seem to worry about anyone outside the US.

KrazyHorse · April 2, 2003, 18:39

I find it disgusting too. But I usually object to a characterisation of an entire nation due to acts of its lowest denominator...

Pekka · April 2, 2003, 18:39

Frogger, thank God

You know if someone really wants to anger me into flaming fury, they can just start making fun of that or otherwise being stupid about it. I didn't mean your earlier post did that, but if people really start teasing about it and using it (the war in any possible way), I'll come out my both hands swinging

.

KrazyHorse · April 2, 2003, 18:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Rothy
Geography cannot tell the whole story, few nations have freely deserted thier capital without putting up a tremendous fight. Being next Germany I'm sure didnt help, but hey where the hell did those troops in the 'maginot line' go

?

They were trapped and were unable to reconnect with their supply line or break out of the pocket in time to make themselves useful...

Pekka · April 2, 2003, 18:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Frogger
I find it disgusting too. But I usually object to a characterisation of an entire nation due to acts of its lowest denominator...

Yeah I agree. It's not the French as nation or people, just some buttholes that happens to be very extreme and stupid. You know by doing this kind of thing, you're asking serious trouble. I mean, I see that kind of action so dangerous, that if they get caught, they could even get killed very easily by angry relatives etc.
I know if that happened to my folks, I'd be thirsty for serious blood.

Oerdin · April 2, 2003, 18:47

It's just a few meat heads running around acting like fools.

Sandman · April 2, 2003, 18:47

Quote:

Geography cannot tell the whole story, few nations have freely deserted thier capital without putting up a tremendous fight. Being next Germany I'm sure didnt help, but hey where the hell did those troops in the 'maginot line' go ?

Well, Russia let Napoleon enter Moscow I believe, and Britain torched Washington during the 1812 war.

As for the maginot line troops, they paid in blood for relying on static defenses.

Back on topic, 'Rosbeef' is spelt wrongly. Could this have been done by the Sun to make a story?

Worthingtons · April 2, 2003, 18:48

Frogger - You've pieced it together for it me now - those in thier supply line must have left Paris to go and 'resupply' the Maginot line!, that's it was deserted when the germans arrived

Pekka, These stupid people who commit such crimes probably did not have the capacity to consider the impications of thier actons if caught - I hope they are caught tho, regardless of where they are from and who they represent. It's also funny to see that almost ever condemnable action at the moment seems to have a counter claim....

Pekka · April 2, 2003, 18:53

Rothy, what counter claim?
I sure hope these thugs will be caught too. It's in the best interest of France, so I expect they do everything they can and I think they will succeed.
But this thing is just not some prank. This goes beyond. Only sick person could think of it as a prank. You could do so many other things to insult others, but right now, I can't think of anything worse.

Spiffor · April 2, 2003, 18:56

Quote:

Originally written by The Sun
Anti-British feeling has been whipped up in France since President Jacques Chirac refused to let the UN back action against Iraq.

I may live in a fantasy world, but I didn't see any significant increase of anti-Brit feeling. There is an old French tradition to mock the Brits or be annoyed by them every time they get in our way, but I didn't see any difference since the beginning of the Iraqi crisis

I may live in a fantasy world though.

Menlas, did you see any difference ?

Oh, and on the WW2 topic : Please check Marc Bloch's Strange Defeat to have a clear explanation of the French defeat and desperation, which isn't stupid nor self-complacent.
If you want a summary, go there (sorry, I'm tired to write the same posts over and over again)

KrazyHorse · April 2, 2003, 18:59

I especially like how France "refused to let the UN back action against Iraq"

All 14 other countries on the SC were, of course, firmly behind the US.

And of course there's been no anti-French feeling in the US or UK...

Cyclotron · April 2, 2003, 19:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
I answered Ned, who wondered how to put the French left side by side with the US again. Now, I understand the US doesn't care of the French left. After all, the Bush admin didn't seem to worry about anyone outside the US.

Is there are reason we should care about the French left? After the best-selling book after 9-11 in France was about how we put on 9-11 ourselves, I lost any previous interest I had in catering to French interest.

I mean, I'm sure you're all nice people, but why should we care what your opinions of us are?

Thorn · April 2, 2003, 19:06

You pompous canadians should be blitzed too, America should make Quebec a WASTELAND.

Stupid French, I am so upset I've been told all my life how bad the French are, but I never believed it until now. Now your country is finished I shall see to that, I'm giving Germany the bomb!!!!

MOBIUS · April 2, 2003, 19:09

Hey Spiff,

How do you frogs spell 'Rosbif' anyway?

It is 'Rosbif' and not 'Rosbeef' - or are both equally accepted?

It's just that I saw it spelled 'Rosbeef' in the picture I saw...?

Quote:

The French arent really of a different ethnic background anyway, my point is that we fought and we grafted, they didnt. Would you disagree that protecting you're wife and children fromt the army of a dangerous dictator is a good quality? and I suppose you'd argue that surrending is a GOOD one!??!

Rothy, you still haven't addressed the fact that the English Channel saved us - because it and Op. Dynamo were about the only things that kept us in the war at that time...

Just cos you're obviously blinded by you hatred for the French, doesn't mean you should disparage the French ability to fight when we were rolled up good by the Krauts too!

And I take it you have forgotten about the incredible bravery of Free French under De Gaulle, or the Maquis?

Only one thing saved us from defeat and that is Geography...

It's been serving us well for almost a thousand years and is better than the maginot line ever could be...

Worthingtons · April 2, 2003, 19:10

THe Counter claim obviously is that The Sun has done this. In a time where responsabiliy for almost anything is being disputed it makes one wonder what to believe, but to think a National newspaper employed thugs to do this risking just about the worst PR a newspaper could possibly get for a single story is simply crazy....

gsmoove23 · April 2, 2003, 19:12

Cyclotron, I wouldn't put too much stock in best selling book lists. After all Michael Moore's "Stupid White Men" or something like that was #1 in America not that long ago, with my favorite chapter, Kill Whitey.

KrazyHorse · April 2, 2003, 19:12

Rosbif is the only way to spell it.

"beef" is not a francophone way to spell that sound...

Pekka · April 2, 2003, 19:13

Rothy, Sounds wild to me. If they would take that kind of risk, I bet they would make sure they get it right. Also French can spell wrong too, yes? Especially if it's a slang word. I woudln't count it out, but I'm not holding that as an option without proof.

Spiffor · April 2, 2003, 19:13

Quote:

Originally posted by cyclotron7
Is there are reason we should care about the French left? After the best-selling book after 9-11 in France was about how we put on 9-11 ourselves, I lost any previous interest I had in catering to French interest.

I mean, I'm sure you're all nice people, but why should we care what your opinions of us are?

You don't have to. Ned was wondering how the French left could side with the US (whatever why), and I answered. However, it is always a good idea to listen to people you disagree with, even if it doesn't make you change your mind. It also helps to honestly look for the true reasons of your image's worsening abroad (this isn't exclusive to France).

About the scandal-rag on Sept. 11, it has less to do with antiamericanism than with the usual sells of a scandal-rag in France : France has no true political tabloids à la The Sun, and scnadal-books are how scandalmongers make money. The previous big success scandal-book (I think it had more success than the one on Sept. 11) told how Mitterrand knew he had cancer all along and lied to his people.
The whole journalistic domain rejected the scnadal-book on Sept. 11, and I don't think I've heard of any political party using it for propaganda. Actually, the book was a mere compilation of "info" found on the Internet which was then printed. The average Frenchman satisfied his lust of scandal through this media rather than a magazine or the Internet.

gsmoove23 · April 2, 2003, 19:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Rothy
THe Counter claim obviously is that The Sun has done this. In a time where responsabiliy for almost anything is being disputed it makes one wonder what to believe, but to think a National newspaper employed thugs to do this risking just about the worst PR a newspaper could possibly get for a single story is simply crazy....

I wouldn't put it past one of your British rags. But why does it have to be done by the sun? Some drunk brits deface the monument then tip off their favorite paper. No great stretch.

MOBIUS · April 2, 2003, 19:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Frogger
Rosbif is the only way to spell it.

"beef" is not a francophone way to spell that sound...

Exactly my point...

Perhaps the grafittists where not actually French after all...

Spiffor · April 2, 2003, 19:18

MOBIUS :
"Rosbif" strongly belongs to the oral language, and has no official spelling that I know of. The spelling "Rosbif" is the simplest written translation of the word, so I assume pretty much everybody would use this spelling if they had to write it.
However, both "ee" and "oo" are widely known in France, and there is nearly no French word using these doppled vowels, i.e everytime a Frenchman sees "ee" or "oo", he thinks about the English way to say it.

So, it is not impossible, far from it, French people have spelled "Rosbeef".

Cyclotron · April 2, 2003, 19:18

It still makes me raise an eyebrow. I mean, while not indicitive of national policy, best seller lists do at least tell me what people are interested in reading...

Quote:

However, it is always a good idea to listen to people you disagree with, even if it doesn't make you change your mind. It also helps to honestly look for the true reasons of your image's worsening abroad (this isn't exclusive to France).

Legitimate complaints are good to listen to, but I haven't seen many of those out of France. There is a distinct difference between specific complains and general, nebulous opposition.

Worthingtons · April 2, 2003, 19:20

Mobius, I've addresed it already acknowledging the part it played was a large one, but by no means the only one. As i said, we took it heavy during the blitz - a campaign aimed at pressing us into surrender and because of our mentality it did the exact opposite. Some brit's would like to erase our 'bloody history', specially since in previous centuries we expanded more than any other empire has ever done (ok, if the Romans had the Technology then who knows.....) but the fact is that it exists - and it's something you'd surely struggle to compare with any French achievements.

GePap · April 2, 2003, 19:24

You know, I remember all those brilliant Miliatry leaders of WW1, specially the brits. I mean, with all the massive casulties the french took, they could neer macth brti ingenuity: who else could lose 60,000 men in ONE DAY? My god, it is a record for the modern world! Good general Haig..briilliant chap really.

As I have said earlier, only one state with a land boundary with Germany survived invasion longer than 6 weeks: The Soviet union. All other states either were taken in that time or less, or avoided the issue by becoming allies of Germany. but I guess we can;t hold that against them, or call them cowards....

I understand that the French defeat was sudden, and the actions of the French goverment at the time were weak. I think if people single out the French, specially the US which had a wonderful 3000 miles to hide behind from the Germans, is because unlike all those other states in Europe, France was seen as an equal power to germany (With a bigger and in some way, if not all, better equiped military), which had not really been true since 1871, and thus the fact that the Germans won so quickly "must" be explained by soem french failing. I guess the story about how the german offensive was so well planned and executed doesn't play as well to an anglo-saxon audience.

Spiffor · April 2, 2003, 19:25

Quote:

Originally posted by cyclotron7
It still makes me raise an eyebrow. I mean, while not indicitive of national policy, best seller lists do at least tell me what people are interested in reading...

Too bad we don't know the hits, per country, of the people going to the sites claiming exactly the same absurd things. I don't excuse the people who bought this book, but the fact this book was a success in France and not anywhere else has much more to do with the structure of scandalmongering in France, rather than the typical French Antiamericanism.

And as per France's legitimate complaints : the message has now been garbled by a political consensus where everyone pushes for his agenda. But at the beginning (before the whole diplomatic barking, which was clearly driven by opportunism and egoism), France's opposition had to do with the strong belief the US was making a mistake, and was only helping worldwide antiamericanism to increase, thus playing in the hands of Bin Laden.

Menlas · April 2, 2003, 19:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor

I may live in a fantasy world, but I didn't see any significant increase of anti-Brit feeling. There is an old French tradition to mock the Brits or be annoyed by them every time they get in our way, but I didn't see any difference since the beginning of the Iraqi crisis

I may live in a fantasy world though.

Menlas, did you see any difference ?

Not really. Of course we've had some fun about Blair being Bush's little dog, but that's not new after all

Worthingtons · April 2, 2003, 19:26

gsmoove23 , Perhaps, but again if discovered the Sun would STILL receive awful condemnation for not reporting this to the police and instead printing the story in a misleading mannor. defacing the monuments of the dead is a VERY serious thing to do, and the PR that goes with trying to benefit from such acts is ghastly.

Then again Tony Blair somehow got away with trying to gain on the Queen Mother's death so who knows....

GePap · April 2, 2003, 19:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Rothy
Mobius, I've addresed it already acknowledging the part it played was a large one, but by no means the only one. As i said, we took it heavy during the blitz - a campaign aimed at pressing us into surrender and because of our mentality it did the exact opposite. Some brit's would like to erase our 'bloody history', specially since in previous centuries we expanded more than any other empire has ever done (ok, if the Romans had the Technology then who knows.....) but the fact is that it exists - and it's something you'd surely struggle to compare with any French achievements.

Hmm, wait, which is the UK's Austerlitz? When is the last time a british man defeated multiple European empires and then marched all the way to moscow? Yeah, the brits won a huge empire, from peoples with greatly deficient technology. Oh, and you forgot the Mongols, and the greatest Empire in the world, oh, and the spread of islam was just as quick.Oh, and lest not forget the huge Empire of Spain. What, were they superior peoples too?

Oh, and the people of Russia, hell, even the people of Germany, have you Brits beat in the "suffer from great enemy bombardments and attacks and keep fighting". And lest not forget the German siege of Paris in 1871, or is that going too far back?