"That's so gay" - enough to get twelve-year-olds suspended

[korn469]

So it'd be okay for a white boy to express his opinion that all "niggers" work as slaves, as long as he's not harassing a black person in specific, in a public school?

while it wouldn't be right, people have the freedom to be racist, just as they have the freedom to be sexist, or conservative, or liberal or whatever though i completely agree that being racist or homophobic or sexist isn't good and those people need to be confronted and hopefully enlightened

back to the kid, if he had of said "that call is so redneck, or retarded etc" the teacher would have suspended him, but the teacher sounds like a politness fascist, a PC autocrat, a touchy feely tolerance totalitarian, and i see this case having nothing to do with homophobia, instead it is all about institutional overreaction to childhood

as far as tolerance goes though, i think there are far better ways to engender tolerance other than though institutionalized force, which i think is highly counter productive, especially when it is used as a first responce

this thread has enlightened me some, i mean i realized that gay=lame was offensive to gay people, but i never realized how offensive it was. part of that is i come from an area with relatively few open homosexuals, while i have made gay aquaintances in the past, i haven't ever really been exposed to either gay culture first hand nor have I ever had a really close gay friend. it isn't that i have actively avoided befriending gays, there simply isn't any gays in my sphere of contact to befirend, plus i have only a handful of super close friends. i have had a few experiences recently (and no it wasn't any kind of sexual experimentation) that has really opened my eyes when it comes to gay marriage, and it has changed me from being ambivalent to being a wholehearted supporter of it. i think interaction, engagement, and hearing all sides of the issue is the best way to open people's eyes.

i can also see where the kid could be coming from. i went to a high school that had between 1000-1200 students. out of all of those students, in my freshman year there were no open homosexuals, no african americans, three or so palestinians, no jews, three indians, no native americans, two pakistanis, and possibly ten asian american students. the rest were white. there were far more redneck students than all of the minority students combined. at that point in my life i had yet to meet a homosexual, and gay=lame was far more common than gay=homosexual. very few people, especially in middle school, and high school discuessed any aspect of gay culture...except getting it on with bi chix lol
now with that in mind, an automatic suspension over say gay=lame, would have really brought a backlash, i mean the far majority of churches in this area still preach that homosexuality is a sin, and god doesn't hate the sinners but he hates the sin. many parents would have been offended at the schools protecting a nonexistant minority in the community who were involved in something quite taboo at the expense of a child.

on a sidenote when i first went to college, an upperclassman said he'd been to my town before with his highschool basketball team and said he had never been to a more racist place in his life.

the thing is unless you change kids now, and teach them both tolerance and that gay=lame is offense, in 20 years or so gay culture will need to find a new term because hetero kids will have altered the meaning of gay once again

and Mr. Fun, I can relate to being an outsider, to being picked on, being made fun of, loathing myself. I was a fatty kid, and they are probably even more shunned than gay kids in the majority of places.

[Asher]

Originally posted by korn469
while it wouldn't be right, people have the freedom to be racist, just as they have the freedom to be sexist, or conservative, or liberal or whatever though i completely agree that being racist or homophobic or sexist isn't good and those people need to be confronted and hopefully enlightened

I disagree, I don't think people should have a right to express their racist or sexist remarks in a public school.

Ideally, a public school should not alienate students by having their students (or teachers) making remarks about their skin color, sexuality, religion, etc.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Tuberski


Seriously, what is it derived from, if not "happy"?

Teach me something.


ACK!

I cited it many pages back. Look it up!

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


I cited it many pages back. Look it up!

Fine, see if I ever give you any help.




ACK!

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by korn469

and Mr. Fun, I can relate to being an outsider, to being picked on, being made fun of, loathing myself. I was a fatty kid, and they are probably even more shunned than gay kids in the majority of places.

Your post was quite good, but have to disagree with this. While fat kids get teased a lot, they aren't subjected to the kind of hatred gays are in youth culture. It's physically dangerous to be gay in some places, while I don't think many kids anywhere get assaulted for being pudgy.

Hell, since 60% of Americans are now overweight, being a fat kid puts you in the norm!

[Uncle Sparky]

... and my other points BG ... ?

I'm glad to see you agree with them !

I'm rehearsing with an orchestra tomorrow, so I'm signing off.

[korn469]

I disagree, I don't think people should have a right to express their racist or sexist remarks in a public school.

Ideally, a public school should not alienate students by having their students (or teachers) making remarks about their skin color, sexuality, religion, etc.

i certainly don't think that racism etc. should be tolerated in teachers, but i think students have the freedom to believe in what they want to believe, and that suspending them over their beliefs is a violation of freedom of speech; however, i think educators at every level should try to show the students why their beliefs are wrong

it's my belief that the far majority of students learn things like racism at home, and that suspending them won't change anything

[Asher]

Originally posted by korn469
i certainly don't think that racism etc. should be tolerated in teachers, but i think students have the freedom to believe in what they want to believe, and that suspending them over their beliefs is a violation of freedom of speech; however, i think educators at every level should try to show the students why their beliefs are wrong

Having those beliefs and expressing those beliefs by putting other people down are entirely different things.

Students can have the beliefs if they want, but if it brings any other student down in any way, they should be told to keep their mouth shut by the school, IMO.

[korn469]

Your post was quite good, but have to disagree with this. While fat kids get teased a lot, they aren't subjected to the kind of hatred gays are in youth culture. It's physically dangerous to be gay in some places, while I don't think many kids anywhere get assaulted for being pudgy

Boris

first, thankfully once i realized what my mom cooked was the most unhealthy food on earth i lost the weight

secondly, since i wasn't gay i will never know exactly what kind of abuse gay kids go through, though i can empathize with them

third, actually i was pushed around and roughed up for being fat

oddly enough one of the most abused students at our school was abused for having stinky feet and being pudgy

[Asher]

Originally posted by korn469
Boris

first, thankfully once i realized what my mom cooked was the most unhealthy food on earth i lost the weight

secondly, since i wasn't gay i will never know exactly what kind of abuse gay kids go through, though i can empathize with them

third, actually i was pushed around and roughed up for being fat

oddly enough one of the most abused students at our school was abused for having stinky feet and being pudgy

But at your high school, you didn't even know of any gay people there. To me, that says a lot about how they would be accepted.

It's scary being a gay teenager, and considering ~10% of the population is gay, about 100-120 students at your high school were gay but too scared to come out. Could you imagine having to pose as a gay man to fit in, and fear for your safety because you liked women (while at the same time, everyone used your sexual orientation as an insult)?

[Boris Godunov]

I was a fat kid too, so know the score. 225# at 5'8" at my heaviest. Now I'm a svelt 150#, but still have the fat kid mentality at times.

Maybe it's all perspective, but being overweight wasn't as nearly as great a cause of concern to me as my being gay was.

[korn469]

Asher

actually my senior year one guy did come out in dramatic fashion, he put up a list of all of the guys he wanted to screw, and he was totally loathed then

there was this one kid i knew who was two years younger than me, very effeminant, who came out his sophomore year in college, but he was never given any trouble because he hung out with a group of effeminant brainiac straight guys, and his cousin was one of the most popular (and hottest) girls in the school

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I was a fat kid too, so know the score. 225# at 5'8" at my heaviest. Now I'm a svelt 150#, but still have the fat kid mentality at times.

Maybe it's all perspective, but being overweight wasn't as nearly as great a cause of concern to me as my being gay was.

That's kind of funny actually, because being fat is way more dangerous than being gay is, and should be a bigger concern.

PS. I'm still weeding my way through this thread looking for what you posted, man there is a lot of stupidity out there.


ACK!

[korn469]

Boris

lol i'm like 5'7 or 5'8 and at my heaviest i was around 230, so yea i can relate

[Asher]

Originally posted by korn469
Asher

actually my senior year one guy did come out in dramatic fashion, he put up a list of all of the guys he wanted to screw, and he was totally loathed then

Well, that's understandable. It's tacky.

[korn469]

Boris,

btw, afaik you live in NYC now right? did you always live there? obviously your school had to have a different take on being gay than a rural school in the bible belt south right?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Tuberski


That's kind of funny actually, because being fat is way more dangerous than being gay is,

Depends on where one is! And also immediacy. Being a fat kid isn't necessarily going to have any longterm adverse health effects (my doctor says he expects me to live until I'm in my 90s, barring unforseen circumstances, since I am in perfect health and have a family history of longevity).

And, I was referring more to psychological health than physical. Being a closeted homosexual is very, very psychologically damaging, as it forces one to live a lie about who one is.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
And, I was referring more to psychological health than physical. Being a closeted homosexual is very, very psychologically damaging, as it forces one to live a lie about who one is.

I'm told it was the cause of my extreme anxiety.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by korn469
Boris,

btw, afaik you live in NYC now right? did you always live there? obviously your school had to have a different take on being gay than a rural school in the bible belt south right?

No, I went to middle school and high school in Maryland, on the Eastern Shore (which is the bastion of rural backwardsism and knee-jerk conservatism in Maryland).

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Asher

I'm told it was the cause of my extreme anxiety.

Yeah, it's what caused my 2-year bout with depression at the end of my college years. Pisses me off to no end that I missed out on what should have been a lot of fun because of it...

[korn469]

Well, that's understandable. It's tacky.

it's more than tacky, it's dangerous all things considered, i don't think he was ever assualted but he was threatened a number of times, he eventually moved away, but i think he knew he was moving and that's why he decided to come out like that

by my senior year there were a number of girls claiming to be lesbians, and while i know at least one really was, i'm not sure about the others, they were social outcasts to begin with, so their status didn't drop, and they weren't subject to any new verbal attacks or repercussions from saying they were gay

[mindseye]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramo Egads folks, using "gay" as an insult is an insult to gays. What's so hard to understand?

To which Agathon responded:

Quote:

Depends.

Here I think Ramo summed up the entire argument in a single simple question. Agathon seems to have sidestepped a reasoned response.

So, I will ask it again: Do you understand that using "gay" as an insult is an insult to gays?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher
Agathon, is this debate representative of the kind of crap that goes on with philosophy professors in today's public universities?

If so, I may have to bump that old thread with a new exhibit.

I mean, clearly, this has no grounding in reality and you're just blowing a bunch of hot air of what people are allowed to be offended by.

It's complete bullshit, and you know it, but you're so used to dealing with other people who will agree with your bullshit that you have no idea how baseless it is.

And you are a mere amateur who repeats assertions that are in question as though they were proofs.

Hopeless....

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
And you are a mere amateur who repeats assertions that are in question as though they were proofs.

Hopeless....

I'm confused -- what do you mean by "proofs"?

Do you understand what's being debated here?

People are telling you they find it offensive, and you're off in la-la land thinking about proofs?

What would you know about proofs anyway, everyone knows philosophical proofs are bullshit.

[korn469]

Boris and Asher

I lived a lie for over a year, and it really caused me to have some warped views on the people who i knew loved me, when it finally caught up with me, i thought for sure my mom was going to kill me, or hate me over it...so here's a question, was coming out to your parents (i'm assuming you have) one of the hardest things about being gay?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by korn469
was coming out to your parents (i'm assuming you have) one of the hardest things about being gay?

Second-most frightening moment of my life.

[Asher]

Originally posted by korn469
Boris and Asher

I lived a lie for over a year, and it really caused me to have some warped views on the people who i knew loved me, when it finally caught up with me, i thought for sure my mom was going to kill me, or hate me over it...so here's a question, was coming out to your parents (i'm assuming you have) one of the hardest things about being gay?

I've not come out to my parents yet. It's very scary to do...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Second-most frightening moment of my life.

What's the first?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Asher

What's the first?

Being in NYC on September 11th...

[korn469]

I've not come out to my parents yet. It's very scary to do

yea i can see why you think that, hopefully one day you'll find the courage to do it, and hopefully they'll find out on your terms instead of vice versa