"That's so gay" - enough to get twelve-year-olds suspended - Page 16

LoneWolf · April 5, 2003, 01:38

We live in a troubled, confused land, and it will only get worse.

MrFun · April 5, 2003, 01:42

Quote:

Originally posted by korn469
Boris and Asher

I lived a lie for over a year, and it really caused me to have some warped views on the people who i knew loved me, when it finally caught up with me, i thought for sure my mom was going to kill me, or hate me over it...so here's a question, was coming out to your parents (i'm assuming you have) one of the hardest things about being gay?

I would like to answer your question, too.

I have been raised in a Catholic family, with three older sisters, and one older brother. I came out to my family and friends two days after I came out to myself.

The day that I came out to myself however, was traumatic for me. I seriously contemplated suicide, so I found my older brother's gun case -- it was empty. I don't know if anything would have happened, though.

Two days later, I came out to family and friends. I just wanted to get this difficult part over with -- and it was difficult, believe me, considering my Catholic background.

This is where I consider myself more fortunate than many other homosexuals raised in a religious family, regardless of denomination. My father had been dead for over a year when I came out -- my mother, and my older siblings have all made an effort (some more than others) to accept me for who I am. And my true friends stayed with me after I came out to them.

I did all this while still living in a rural pre-dominantly Catholic town of 300 people in eastern Iowa. Needless to say, I moved a year afterwards, and have been much happier in a much larger town in eastern Iowa.

None of my immediate family has ever disowned me, even though we might still have one or two issues to work out.

And Agathon can babble on however long he wants -- he can never change how I feel about such slurs, no matter how he intellectualizes it. If you can call his babbling intellectualizing.

Asher · April 5, 2003, 01:48

If it's any consolation, MrFun, I'm glad the gun wasn't there.

MrFun · April 5, 2003, 01:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Asher
If it's any consolation, MrFun, I'm glad the gun wasn't there.

What?? I thought everyone here on Apolyton would be disappointed that the gun wasn't there.

Boris Godunov · April 5, 2003, 01:51

EDIT: Point was made, so unnecessary.

MrFun · April 5, 2003, 01:53

As I said Boris, Agathon can intellectualize it all he wants -- if you can call his nonsense intellectualizing.

It will not change how I feel with such insensitive words from people who have no comprehension what you and I, and millions of gay people around the world experience in society.

Boris Godunov · April 5, 2003, 02:03

It's not even something so melodramatic, it's just rather simple.

Using the word gay as a synonym for something stupid/bad is inherently going to imply that gays are stupid/bad, whatever the intent. It really is that simple, despite the contortions made by some to try and weasel around it.

Drake Tungsten · April 5, 2003, 02:13

I expect you to never say "lame" again, then. Practice what you preach...

Asher · April 5, 2003, 02:14

The definition of "lame" was never specific to the physically disabled.

Rather, the word was applied to describe physically disabled people later.

Quote:

lame

adj 1: pathetically lacking in force or effectiveness; "a feeble excuse"; "a lame argument" [syn: feeble] 2: (of horses) disabled in the feet or legs [syn: spavined] 3: disabled in the feet or legs [syn: crippled, halt, halting] n : a fabric interwoven with threads of metal; "she wore a gold lame dress" v : deprive of the use of a limb, esp. a leg; "The accident has crippled her for life" [syn: cripple]

Quote:

gay

adj 1: bright and pleasant; promoting a feeling of cheer; "a cheery hello"; "a gay sunny room"; "a sunny smile" [syn: cheery, sunny] 2: full of or showing high-spirited merriment; "when hearts were young and gay"; "a poet could not but be gay, in such a jocund company"- Wordsworth; "the jolly crowd at the reunion"; "jolly old Saint Nick"; "a jovial old gentleman"; "have a merry Christmas"; "peals of merry laughter"; "a mirthful laugh" [syn: jocund, jolly, jovial, merry, mirthful] 3: given to social pleasures often including dissipation; "led a gay Bohemian life"; "a gay old rogue with an eye for the ladies" 4: brightly colored and showy; "girls decked out in brave new dresses"; "brave banners flying"; "`braw' is a Scottish word"; "a dress a bit too gay for her years"; "birds with gay plumage" [syn: brave, braw] 5: offering fun and gaiety; "a gala ball after the inauguration"; "a festive (or festal) occasion"; "gay and exciting night life"; "a merry evening" [syn: gala(a), festal, festive, merry] 6: homosexual or arousing homosexual desires [syn: queer, homophile(a)] n : someone who practices homosexuality; having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex [syn: homosexual, homo]

Take a gander...

Drake Tungsten · April 5, 2003, 02:17

Quote:

Rather, the word was applied to describe physically disabled people later.

No it wasn't. Lame began as a description of the physically disabled; it later became a word that meant unhip or stupid. By using lame, you are inherently implying that the physically disabled are stupid and uncool. Shame on you...

Asher · April 5, 2003, 02:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
No it wasn't. Lame began as a description of the physically disabled; it later became a word that meant unhip or stupid. By using lame, you are inherently implying that the physically disabled are stupid and uncool. Shame on you...

Websters lists the definition as "weak" and "ineffective" prior to that of describing physically disabled people.

In Websters, this means that that was the original definition. Subsequent bullets mean they come afterwards.

I wish I had thousands of dollars to spend on an OED account so I can provide specific dates on modifications, but oh well.

Boris Godunov · April 5, 2003, 02:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I expect you to never say "lame" again, then. Practice what you preach...

Considering that people with disabilities don't refer to themselves as the "lame," it is yet another inept comparison. We also, once again, have a case of a word that has been used in such a fashion for a very long time, at least since the 1940s. We're not at the nascent stage of its use as such.

Drake Tungsten · April 5, 2003, 02:24

My dictionary gives dates of origins...

Lame as "having a body part and esp. a limb so disabled as to impair freedom of movement" originated first, sometime before the 12th century.

Lame as a slang term for "a person who is not in the know" originated in 1959.

Is seven centuries a big enough gap for you to notice?

Asher · April 5, 2003, 02:24

By the way, Drake, I find it interesting you're trying to use "lame" as a counterexample:

Assuming that lame originally meant a physically disabled person, and later came to mean weak and ineffective...clearly those would be related terms, right? Presumably people would use the word lame to describe other things that are somewhat crippled or lacking.

So if you're using that example, how can you also assert that using "gay" to mean "bad" or "stupid" does not relate to the definition of gay meaning a sexual identity?

This is a deadend, Drake.

Asher · April 5, 2003, 02:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
My dictionary gives dates of origins...

Lame as "having a body part and esp. a limb so disabled as to impair freedom of movement" originated first, sometime before the 12th century.

Lame as a slang term for "a person who is not in the know" originated in 1959.

Is seven centuries a big enough gap for you to notice?

Which dictionary is this?

n/m, found it. Curious how selective you were. Missed this:

Quote:

(2)lame vt lamed; lam;ing (14c) 2 : to make weak or
ineffective : DISABLE

It's been used as a word for "weak or ineffective" since the 14th century.

So why is it offensive to use it as such in the 21st century?

Drake Tungsten · April 5, 2003, 02:26

Quote:

We also, once again, have a case of a word that has been used in such a fashion for a very long time, at least since the 1940s. We're not at the nascent stage of its use as such.

Why does it matter? The implication will always be there and the implication is enough to make it a slur, according to you.

Drake Tungsten · April 5, 2003, 02:27

Quote:

Which dictionary is this?

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition

Asher · April 5, 2003, 02:29

Quote:

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth edition

Yeah, found it online.

You left out the part about lame meaning "weak and ineffective" since the 14th century.

Hardly makes your case.

MrFun · April 5, 2003, 02:29

Drake . . . ah, **** it. You have no comprehension of decent respect towards others of a minority group.

You may not ever understand the societal experiences that homosexuals have, but you can at least try to respect how we feel.

Drake Tungsten · April 5, 2003, 02:31

Quote:

So if you're using that example, how can you also assert that using "gay" to mean "bad" or "stupid" does not relate to the definition of gay meaning a sexual identity?

I never claimed that the new meaning of "gay" does not derive from "gay" as a sexual label. I claimed not to know how it originated, as did Agathon.

Our point is that the word, no matter how it originated, is independent of "gay" as a sexual label in its current usage. People who use "gay" as a synonym for "lame" don't associate that usage with the seperate usage of "gay" as a sexual label. They have seperate meanings, which is why it is silly to call gay as "lame" a slur...

You guys brought up the historical evolution aspect. You never backed it up either...

Drake Tungsten · April 5, 2003, 02:33

Quote:

Hardly makes your case.

My "case" was that lame was originally a word to describe the physically disabled. I think my case was made rather clearly...

Boris Godunov · April 5, 2003, 02:34

Actually, the original use of "lame" was as a verb, which was to make something lame--in other words, to intentionally hobble it. "Lambaste" has a common root, as it is also a form of attacking something, albeit verbally rather than physically.

At any rate, it's origin was not the noun meaning the disabled. It is still not comparable, since disabled people don't identify themselves as "lame," and the use of it in the other sense is FAR more ubiquitous and common. The opposite is true for "gay," has the gay=homosexual is still by far the most common usage of the word.

Asher · April 5, 2003, 02:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
My "case" was that lame was originally a word to describe the physically disabled. I think my case was made rather clearly...

If this is true, I would disapprove of how the word originated.

Alas, I wasn't around in the 14th century.

Today, physically disabled people do not refer to themselves as "lame", while gay people certainly do refer to themselves as "gay".

Therefore, today, it is not offensive to use the term lame to mean weak, or ineffective. It's been an official definition of the word for over 700 years.

It is still offensive to use the word gay to mean bad or stupid, because gay people refer to themselves as gay and have for over 60 years, and it's quite clear that the most likely origin of the insult "gay" derives from the sexuality.

PS: I like how you avoided my post about your "lame" counterexample proving our point about the origins of "gay" as an insult...

Drake Tungsten · April 5, 2003, 02:37

Quote:

Actually, the original use of "lame" was as a verb, which was to make something lame--in other words, to intentionally hobble it.

No it wasn't. The verb form came about in the 14th century, according to my dictionary.

Quote:

At any rate, it's origin was not the noun meaning the disabled.

Yes it was, according to the dictionary. This meaning originated before the 12th century.

Drake Tungsten · April 5, 2003, 02:43

Quote:

Alas, I wasn't around in the 14th century.

The "weak and ineffectual" meaning is not the same as the slang meaning of "a person who is not in the know".

Quote:

Therefore, today, it is not offensive to use the term lame to mean weak, or ineffective. It's been an official definition of the word for over 700 years.

Again, the "weak and ineffective" meaning is not the same as the modern slang meaning. The slang meaning is used for things that are uncool or "square". Your use of the different meaning as interchangable is disingenous...

Asher · April 5, 2003, 02:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
The "weak and ineffectual" meaning is not the same as the slang meaning of "a person who is not in the know".

Of course, but I have no idea why you bring that up.

For this entire thread I've been referring to the word lame as "weak" or "ineffective" (ie: that's a lame argument), not a synonym for "square" like the 1959-definition in your websters...

Quote:

Again, the "weak and ineffective" meaning is not the same as the modern slang meaning. The slang meaning is used for things that are uncool or "square". Your use of the different meaning as interchangable is disingenous...

I've been using "weak" and "ineffective" for this entire thread, for some reason you want to make me use the synonym for "square" definition so you can say it came from 1959.

It's not going to work.

In fact, I've used the VERY specific words "weak" and "ineffective" many times in this thread, and never once used "person not in the know" or "square". That was all you, buddy.

Boris Godunov · April 5, 2003, 02:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Quote:

Actually, the original use of "lame" was as a verb, which was to make something lame--in other words, to intentionally hobble it.

No it wasn't. The verb form came about in the 14th century, according to my dictionary.

It was derived from the old Norse "lemja," which = "to beat"

Well this has been a fascinating etymological discussion, but nevertheless the point stands that the "lame" comparison doesn't work.

Now, the "jew" comparison DOES work, and now that you and Agathon have danced around that one for 25 pages, perhaps you'd finally like to answer:

Would it be okay for a kid to use Jew as a synonym for stingy or a cheat in school? Should it be tolerated?

Would make any sense to say, if non-Jews up and decided to make "Jew" into a new word that meant "cheat," claimed it had no relation to the old meaning of "Jew," and having a different intent, and then went around saying it everywhere, that Jews are somehow wrong to be offended by that?

Once again, how are you defining "logic," since your side would inevitably lead to the conclusion that Jews should just roll over and accept their group moniker being transformed into a word meaning something terrible?

Drake Tungsten · April 5, 2003, 02:54

Quote:

Now, the "jew" comparison DOES work, and now that you and Agathon have danced around that one for 25 pages, perhaps you'd finally like to answer

I answered it a long time ago. Go back and read it.

Drake Tungsten · April 5, 2003, 02:56

Quote:

For this entire thread I've been referring to the word lame as "weak" or "ineffective" (ie: that's a lame argument), not a synonym for "square" like the 1959-definition in your websters...

Well no wonder you haven't been making any sense. You didn't even know what version of "lame" we were referring to when we said "gay" is a synonym for "lame"...

You need to get out more, Asher.

Asher · April 5, 2003, 02:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Well no wonder you haven't been making any sense. You didn't even know what version of "lame" we were referring to when we said "gay" is a synonym for "lame"...

You need to get out more, Asher.

Why would I need to get out more because I use a valid form of the word and didn't read your mind?

I've never used "lame" to mean "square" or "person not in the know" in my life.

I've ALWAYS used it to mean "weak" or "ineffective".

How was I to know that you meant it as a synonym for "square"... In fact, I've defined "lame" to be "weak" and "ineffective" numerous times in this thread, and you did not do so until just now for being a synonym of square. So it's your fault we're not discussing the same word.

The only great thing about this thread is it's so enjoyable to watch you sink to new lows, and keep coming back to try to claw your way to the top, only to fall lower...