The last refuge

[GePap]

The Last Refuge
By PAUL KRUGMAN


n 1944, millions of Americans were engaged in desperate battles across the world. Nonetheless, a normal presidential election was held, and the opposition didn't pull its punches: Thomas Dewey, the Republican candidate, campaigned on the theme that Franklin Roosevelt was a "tired old man." As far as I've been able to ascertain, the Roosevelt administration didn't accuse Dewey of hurting morale by questioning the president's competence. After all, democracy — including the right to criticize — was what we were fighting for.

It's not a slur on the courage of our troops, or a belittling of the risks they face, to say that our current war is a mere skirmish by comparison. Yet self-styled patriots are trying to impose constraints on political speech never contemplated during World War II, accusing anyone who criticizes the president of undermining the war effort.

Last week John Kerry told an audience that "what we need now is not just a regime change in Saddam Hussein and Iraq, but we need a regime change in the United States." Republicans immediately sought to portray this remark as little short of treason. "Senator Kerry crossed a grave line when he dared to suggest the replacement of America's commander in chief at a time when America is at war," declared Marc Racicot, chairman of the Republican National Committee.

Notice that Mr. Racicot wasn't criticizing Mr. Kerry's choice of words. Instead, he denounced Mr. Kerry because he "dared to suggest the replacement of America's commander in chief" — knowing full well that Mr. Kerry was simply talking about the next election. Mr. Racicot, not Mr. Kerry, is the one who crossed a grave line; never in our nation's history has it been considered unpatriotic to oppose an incumbent's re-election.

Anyway, what defines patriotism? Talk is cheap; so is putting a flag in your lapel. Citizens prove their patriotism when they make sacrifices for the sake of their country. Mr. Kerry, a decorated veteran, has met that test. Most of his critics haven't.

I'm not just talking about military service — though it's striking how few of our biggest hawks have served. Nor am I talking only about financial sacrifice — though profiting from public office seems to be the norm, not the exception, among those who wrap themselves in the flag. (Mr. Racicot himself accepted the job as R.N.C. chairman only on the condition that he remain on the payroll of Bracewell and Patterson, a law firm that specializes in lobbying.)

The biggest test of a politician's patriotism is whether he is willing to sacrifice some of his political agenda for the sake of the nation. And that's a test our current leaders have failed with flying colors.

Consider the case of Tom DeLay, the House majority leader, who also piled on Mr. Kerry last week. As it happens, during the war in Kosovo Mr. DeLay was a defeatist, and blamed his own country for provoking Serbian atrocities; any Democrat who said similar things now would be accused of giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

Mr. DeLay's political agenda hasn't shifted a bit now that we're at war again. He's still pushing for huge, divisive tax cuts that go mainly to the rich: "Nothing is more important in the face of a war than cutting taxes," he says. And he's still eager to slash any and all domestic spending. In the midst of war he pushed through a budget that included sharp cuts in, yes, veterans' benefits.

You can see why Mr. Kerry blasted back, "I'm not going to be questioned in my patriotism by the likes of Tom DeLay."

Some timid souls will suggest that critics of the Bush administration hold off until the war is over. But that's not the American tradition — and anyway, when will this war be over? Baghdad will fall, but during the occupation that follows American soldiers will still be in harm's way. Also, a strong faction within the administration wants to go on to Syria, to Iran and beyond. And Al Qaeda is still out there.

For years to come, then, this country may be, in some sense, at war. And all that time, if Mr. Racicot and his party are allowed to set the ground rules, nobody will be allowed to criticize the president or call for his electoral defeat. You know what? If that happens, we will have lost the war, whatever happens on the battlefield.

I most definitely agree with the vast majority of what was said. I think most peole attakcing those that critizice the government should get off thier self-righteous asses and go to alibrary, and read newspapers from WW2 to see what a real democracy was about: that when your nation is at war, that is precisely the moment to stand up for its principles, not to shrink and demure to those in power.

It seem the less American's actually do for America, the more we become consumers (of stuff, of news) as opposed to citizens, the more we want to put on a pedestals those that we think are fulfilling the models we have in our heads of what citizens were: but its a false pedestal and one that errodes further what it tries to symbolically immitate.

[Arrian]

:nods:

[SlowwHand]

: pukes :

[Solly]

He gets about that Krugman fella.

[SlowwHand]

Want something to protest? Protest this.
Do some reading yourself.

http://www.aiipowmia.com/stats.html

Operation Iraqi Freedom: Figures by AII POW-MIA

01 APR 03 : Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch, 19, Palestine, W.Va. RESCUED

As of 05 APR 03:

Prisoner of War (POW): 7

USA Spc. Edgar Adan Hernandez, 21, of Mission, Texas

USA Spc. Joseph Neal Hudson, 23, of Alamogordo, N.M.

USA Spc. Shoshana Nyree Johnson, 30, of El Paso, Texas

USA Pfc. Patrick Wayne Miller, 23, of Walter, Kan.

USA Sgt. James Joseph Riley, 31, of Pennsauken, N.J.

USA Chief Warrant Officer David S. Williams

USA Chief Warrant Officer Ronald D. Young Jr.

Duty Status Whereabouts Unknown (DUSTWUN): 8

Army Sgt. Edward J. Anguiano, 24, Brownsville, Texas.

Marine Pfc. Tamario D. Burkett, 21, Buffalo, N.Y.

Marine Cpl. Kemaphoom A. Chanawongse, 22, Waterford, Conn.

Marine Lance Cpl. Donald J. Cline, Jr., 21, Sparks, Nev.

Marine Pvt. Jonathan L. Gifford, 30, Decatur, Ill.

Marine Pvt. Nolen R. Hutchings, 19, Boiling Springs, S.C.

Marine Sgt. Fernando Padilla-Ramirez, 26, Yuma, Ariz.

Marine Sgt. Brendon Reiss, 23, Casper, Wyo.

[GePap]

Ahh, invoking the sacrifice of others to justify your own acts and opinions...just the sort of "last refugee" that phrase speaks off, Slowwly, just the sort of thing it speaks of.


All I know is, if Bodd's disgarees it must be right.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Ok, I protest that those men and women were placed in harms way in the first place.

[Victor Galis]

Sloww, what about that should I protest? That the Iraqis have the gall to defend themselves against imperialist aggression?

[red_jon]

Sloww, what does a list of lost soldiers show? Of course it's a tragedy, but doesn't that just prove an anti-war point?

We should never lose the right to criticism, not even during a time of war.

[Kontiki]

GePap, I'm shocked and dismayed that you would post such an article in this time of unquestionable American righteousness. I can only conclude that you are in fact a godless, Saddam-loving, baby-eating communist terrorist that should be immediately rounded up by the correct local militia and be taught what it really means to love America.

Edit: smile, at MarkG's request, just in case someone thinks I wasn't being sarcastic.

[MarkG]

Kontiki, i beg you, put a smilie in your post

[SlowwHand]

Fine, RJ. Protest this.
And oh yeah, let's just ****ing forget that Hussein was given ample ****ing opportunity to step aside.


Jailed Iraqi children run free as marines roll into Baghdad suburbs
1 hour, 15 minutes ago

BAGHDAD (AFP) - More than 100 children held in a prison celebrated their freedom as US marines rolled into northeast Baghdad amid chaotic scenes which saw civilians loot weapons from an army compound, a US officer said.


Around 150 children spilled out of the jail after the gates were opened as a US military Humvee vehicle approached, Lieutenant Colonel Fred Padilla told an AFP correspondent travelling with the Marines 5th Regiment.

"Hundreds of kids were swarming us and kissing us," Padilla said.

"There were parents running up, so happy to have their kids back."

"The children had been imprisoned because they had not joined the youth branch of the Baath party," he alleged. "Some of these kids had been in there for five years."







Yeah. The USA and Britain just suck, don't they?
Get a grip.

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Kontiki
Edit: smile, at MarkG's request, just in case someone thinks I wasn't being sarcastic.

Well, for a second I was quite unsure...

[GePap]

did you even read the article Sloww?

Where does it say that American sucks? hmm, let me look, oh, nowhere.

Go ahead, be as indignant, self-rightesous, rabid as you can be..it doesn't address the points made, and it doesn't make a difference either.

But from your commenst lately, I could have expected nothing else either.

[Victor Galis]

Fine, RJ. Protest this.
And oh yeah, let's just ****ing forget that Hussein was given ample ****ing opportunity to step aside.

-So America should have the power and right to depose third world rulers at will immediately

Yeah. The USA and Britain just suck, don't they?

-And how many Iraqi civilians have you killed to get that far?

[SlowwHand]

You saying you haven't repeated that, ad nauseum, for 3 weeks, GePap ?

[Ari Rahikkala]

What does the justification of the war itself have to do with the justification of reducing political freedoms?

[GePap]

What, the calling those that think this admin. is idiotic is not unpatriotic and that those that say it is have no clue what they are talking about and undermine the very things we are fighting for?

I will say it ad nauseum for the coming 4 years if it is necessary. And during all that time you have never coem up with a worthwhile answer to that idea.

So, I will give you a chance: why is it wrong to critizise our political leaders during a war Sloww? will our troops, upon finding that thier current political leaders are unfit see their world crumble and drop down their arms and flee in panic? Will it somehow create some mystical force that will telepathically infuse those isolated Iraqi conscript who don;t know what is going on with some superhuman determination that will held them take out our troops? What is it slowwly?

[red_jon]

Sloww- I don't mean to sound patronising but chill.

I was just asking what you meant by posting that.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
And oh yeah, let's just ****ing forget that Hussein was given ample ****ing opportunity to step aside.

Why should he? If he has committed illegal acts, try him in a court. If not, what right do you have to remove him? Do you think the US should remove Arafat, Chirac, Schroeder, and anyone else who Bush would rather wasn't in power? Should all national leaders be subject to US approval?

[The Emperor Fabulous]

I will defend your right to attack my right of free speech. Lord knows that's what our soldiers have been told they are doing.

[monkspider]

Some people will go along with whatever their country does, regardless of how immoral it is. :shrugs:

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Want something to protest? Protest this.
Do some reading yourself.

http://www.aiipowmia.com/stats.html

Operation Iraqi Freedom: Figures by AII POW-MIA

01 APR 03 : Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch, 19, Palestine, W.Va. RESCUED

As of 05 APR 03:

Prisoner of War (POW): 7

If it were for anti-war people, those soldiers wouldn't be in ME in the first place, but with their families. What do you expect if oyou attack a country? "OK guys, bad enough you didn't comply with our demands and completely disarm, but that you now really also dare to defend yourself is ridiculous!"

Have you actually read the article? You're exactly acting the way the article is talking about - arguing with something completely unrelated just to make the other opinion appear "unpatriotic". Criticising Bush=supporter oif terrorism - as easy as that, hein?

[PLATO]

Freedom to vocally oppose a sitting government is as an American right as anything. Freedom to oppose the opposition is also. What we see among the politicians is posturing and nothing more. Anyone have any evidence that Kerry or Delay oppose the constitution? Both are right to speak their minds and give their opinions. The judge in this matter is the American voter at the Ballot box. I say let the debate continue! This makes us stronger, not weaker, as a Nation. The world can see our process out in the open, but know that at the end of the day-we stand together.

No further evidence is needed than to recall the House of Representatives singing God Bless America together on the House steps after 9/11. As long as we are free, we will have dissent and dissent to that dissent. GePap is correct...this is the American way. Kerry is correct to speak his mind, and Delay is free to speak his. We the Public will decide.

[GePap]

PLATO: there is a slight difference between what Kerry said and what Racicot and Delay said:

There are two positions here: agree with the president, disagree with the president.

Kerry states he disagreed with the president.

Delay and Co. stated: You can't say that. They did not say: "well, Kerry disagrees, but we agree with the president", they stated that it is wrong to voice position number 1.

Those to acts ARE NOT CONCURENT, ARE NOT THE SAME, ARE NOT EQUAL.

One is a person stating what their opinion is, which you are right Plato, is our right as Americans. The other is saying that that is something AMERICANS SHOULDN'T DO, THAT IT IS UNAMERICAN. I have the right to disagree with an author, I have the right not to read him..I don't have the right to state that they don't have the right to write. Burning a book is not an equal act of free speech to writing a book..it is an attempt to stiffle free speech.

This is the point. Republicans can line up behind the president and say he is right and hold "America rallies" as large as they can get..that is freedom of speech. Calling others who disagree with them traitors is not part of that freedom. that is an attempt to stiffle debate, and if anything is unamerican, it is that.

[Victor Galis]

Freedom to vocally oppose a sitting government is as an American right as anything. Freedom to oppose the opposition is also. What we see among the politicians is posturing and nothing more. Anyone have any evidence that Kerry or Delay oppose the constitution? Both are right to speak their minds and give their opinions. The judge in this matter is the American voter at the Ballot box. I say let the debate continue! This makes us stronger, not weaker, as a Nation. The world can see our process out in the open, but know that at the end of the day-we stand together.

-It's one thing to oppose the opposition, quite another to suggest that they have no right to oppose you.

[Ben Kenobi]

Churchill:

Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/s/q103863.html