The Court: Who should control North/South Sheepsta - Page 2

Jack_www · April 14, 2003, 19:50

one more note about the case, since Archaic made south sheepsta and north sheepsta into nations in nation states, how about just have these nation names be changed if ruling goes in favor of SHeep? THen we can rp the hand over the Sheepsta.

GeneralTacticus · April 14, 2003, 21:26

You can't change nation names in NS. You can alter their 'type' or title (republic, empire, etc.) but you can't change the name.

Sheep · April 15, 2003, 02:56

I was thinking of this and I would ask Anarchic to Pm me their passwords. I would then start to make them closely alligned in RP. Although they will be seperate states in NS, they will be the same as far as roleplay is concerned.

Perhaps the Reunified States of Sheepsta.

Archaic · April 15, 2003, 06:53

If Sheep wins, then I will let the nations go for 21 days so that they lapse and delete themselves.

Drogue · April 15, 2003, 15:14

Order in the court

Now I have your attention, it is time for the summation and verdict.

Summation
I was very impressed with the attitude, coherence and conciseness of the attorneys and arguments. One of the main points was the RP election that Archaic held. Since this was questioned, and has been by many nations, it could not be accepted at face value, as the will of the people. The judges understand that, in real life terms, North and South Sheepsta were started as new nations; however, they were geographically the same as "Old" Sheepsta. If a nation were to fall, in the way that Sheepsta did, it should become under international jurisdiction, rather than the control of a particular nation. Thus the court was reluctant to leave the nations with their new protectors. However the court also sees the considerable financial outlay, and help that Alecrast and Bulbagarden has given to Sheepsta, and it's ruling must reflect that. Personally, I was a little relucant to vote strongly in favour of one or the other parties, since both had claims, Sheep as the original, legitimate ruler, Archaic who came in to help after the civil war, and who changed the nations significantly, after being abandoned by Sheep. In that abandonment, we must consider the mitigating circumstances of Sheep's hospital stay, and although he maybe could have done something to help it, it could have been hard for him, and Archaic, even leaving plenty of time, did not PM Sheep to inform him about this. This has led me to propose, and Giovanni Wine to elaborate and expand upon, a middle of the road, and democratic idea. The 3 questions we had to answer, and voted upon, after deliberation, were:[list=1][*]What should be done with North and South Sheepsta?[*]Should Bulbagarden still be allowed to keep South Sheepsta, in any event?[*]What should be done in the meantime (will become apparent why this was necessary)?[/list=1]

Verdict
The first was decided unanimously. Mine and Giovanni's proposal was accepted, 4-0. This is as follows:
Since we could not accept the RP election as the undeniable wishes of the people of Sheepsta, we felt a second, internationally monitored election was in order. To represent this, we will post a poll, an election, whereby all nations are asked to assume themselves as citizens of Sheepsta, and vote as to their future. This may seem to some like the court is passing the buck, and not deciding legally, but that is not the case. The court has decided that democracy, as Sheepsta currently has, should prevail, and is asking the people to choose their leader. This poll is a not a poll as to the verdict of this trial, but a poll of what the people of Sheepsta would want, giving them an election. The main precedent for this is that in most child custody cases, what is best for the child is the overriding point, and the court feels the same about Sheepsta. Although we as a court could decide this, it is very subjective, as to which nation would rule better, and so I believe a poll is preferable. Thus rather than RP this, and choose ourselves, we decided that the people as a whole would best represent the people of Sheepsta, as a diverse mix of people.

In short, I will post a poll, and election for the people to Sheepsta (which in RL will be represented by all national delegates) that will determine North and South Sheepsta's future. It will last for 3 days, and will consist of 4 options (Real life explanations in brackets):[list=1][*]- I want to stay protectorate of Alecrast/Bulbagarden (things stay as they are)[*]- I want to be under the protection of the court (password given to a nation delageted by the court)[*]- I want to be a protectorate of New Sheepsta (passwords given to Sheep)[*]- I want to be part of a Unified Sheepsta with all the Sheepstan people (Destroy North and South Sheepsta, and create a "Unified Sheepsta", or RP all into New Sheepsta).[/list=1]

On the second matter, the court voted 3-1 to allow Bulbagarden to keep South Sheepsta, if the election said to stay as a protectorate. Even though Bulbagarden is not in Apolyton, South Sheepsta is, and so is under this courts jurisdiction. Thus, it does not matter as to what region Bulbagarden is in.

The third matter was contentious. Who should keep North and South Sheepsta until the election is over? The court decided, 2-1 (with 1 abstention) to turn it over to the court, until the election is over. Thus if Archaic could PM myself the password for North Sheepsta, and I shall telegram Bulbagarden for South Sheepsta's one. It will be run jointly by all judges (including GeneralTacticus) until the end of the election, in 3 days, when the winning measure will be carried out. It will continue to be run roughly according to how it was before the court took over.

I hope this meets with everybody's approval. If elaboration is needed, please PM me.

The Court is adjourned.

Sheep · April 15, 2003, 18:10

I have sent you a PM. I feel this election is biased as it splits my vote. Therefore either get rid of option 3 or 4.

Thank you.

Drogue · April 15, 2003, 18:23

Have replied. If no option wins a clear majority, which is needed for the people to ratify an option, there will be a run-off between the two highest, to get a clear majority. Therefore, unless one of the other options gets over 50%, one of your options will almost certainly be included i the run-off. However, we do need both options, since the people may wish to be unified, or they may wish to be independant, but under a New Sheepsta protectorate. I will clarify the electin voting in the election thread, I am sorry for forgetting to do that at posting time. Thank you for your input.

Drogue · April 15, 2003, 19:06

Elections have been posted here. Please visit and vote for your favoured option, as if you were a Sheepstan citizen.

Archaic · April 15, 2003, 20:45

Passwords have been sent to Drogue.

Archaic · April 15, 2003, 21:03

Alecrast would like to lodge an (RP) protest over the manner in which this vote has been called. Firstly, it was judged that our first referendum was too fast, yet that is exactly what's happened here. Secondly, New Sheepsta has not stopped its attacks, showing their clear intention to keep up with this futile war if they lost the referendum. Thirdly, the New Sheepstan people can not be expected to be able to make votes based on their own wishes when a gun is virtually held to their head by the Corrupt Dictatorship.

Drogue · April 15, 2003, 21:12

Archaic: Too hasty? Why? What is wrong with it? Moreover, we thought a speedy resolution to be important. New Sheepsta isn't voting. North and South Sheepsta are, as to what they want. New Sheepsta is not the issue in this trial, unless North and South Sheepsta wish to be amalgumated with it. Moreover, the court is supervising it. We are happy that so far no foul play has been discovered.

I call on New Sheepsta to stop it's attack. Please wait for the election to end, and then see what the people wish. Thank you.

Archaic · April 15, 2003, 21:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
Archaic: Too hasty? Why? What is wrong with it? Moreover, we thought a speedy resolution to be important.

This is exactly what we were saying about the first set of referendums, however there were many protests to that.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
New Sheepsta isn't voting. North and South Sheepsta are, as to what they want. New Sheepsta is not the issue in this trial, unless North and South Sheepsta wish to be amalgumated with it.

It was our impression that all of North and South Sheepsta were voting, were they not? All the lands claimed by "New Sheepsta" lie within the boundaries of South Sheepsta, and it's citizens have for the most part been regarded as South Sheepstans who got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, and fell under the control of a local madman. But still South Sheepstans. If indeed those in the New Sheepsta region aren't voting, one has to point out that they should vote too, since with that kind of government, one can't expect they'd all be fanatically behind their leader if offered a real choice.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
Moreover, the court is supervising it. We are happy that so far no foul play has been discovered.

When the government is opressive, such as in the case of New Sheepsta, then they don't literally need that gun to their head literally to be forced to vote that way. We've let a large number of South Sheepstans citizens through from the New Sheepsta regions to the rest of South Sheepsta over the past few days. However now many of these people seem to be at the polls promoting New Sheepsta, even though they said they were fleeing the regime. This stinks of vote stacking.

Drogue · April 15, 2003, 21:46

I don't think they called them hasty or fast, I think they claimed that they weren't fair, and that, since it was RP, you could make any result up. I was unaware of the exact geography of Sheepsta, however, this voting is about North and South Sheepsta, and applies to all, but only, North and South Sheepstans. Since they can poll in their own locality (many pollingn stations) they should not have to go through New Sheepsta to reach a station. Indeed, they can vote via Apolytonet, or even post if need be. New Sheepsta is already under Sheep's control, and that will not change, unless he decides to hold an election. This case is purely about North and South Sheepsta.

GeneralTacticus · April 15, 2003, 21:47

Quote:

I don't think they called them hasty or fast, I think they claimed that they weren't fair,

It was claimed that they weren't fair becuase they were too fast. Go back and read some of the early comments in the thread.

GeneralTacticus · April 15, 2003, 21:52

In any event, Centralis agrees with the protests of the Alecrastian governemnt over the continuation of the New Sheepstan attack, and we wonder what will happen if the attack still goes on while the elections are in progress, despite the request of the Court that it stop.

Drogue · April 15, 2003, 21:58

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
It was claimed that they weren't fair becuase they were too fast. Go back and read some of the early comments in the thread.

If it wasn't brought up in court, I cannot use it when ruling. I read all the court posts very carefully, and the main impression I got from Jack_www was that because it was just an RP election, Archaic could post any result he wanted. I recall nothing about them being too hasty. If it came up on Archaic's RP thread, then no, I haven't read all of it (most) and cannot take that into account when ruling anyway.

Archaic · April 15, 2003, 22:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
Since they can poll in their own locality (many pollingn stations) they should not have to go through New Sheepsta to reach a station. Indeed, they can vote via Apolytonet, or even post if need be.

As I stated, these were South Sheepstans who were living in the part of South Sheepsta that is under control of the New Sheepstan regime.

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
New Sheepsta is already under Sheep's control, and that will not change, unless he decides to hold an election. This case is purely about North and South Sheepsta.

Then I believe the scope of the trial was flawed, and that the matter should be looked into further. Otherwise, you're basically stating that anyone could, for example, start a "New Centralis" nation, plank it in the middle of Centralis, and claim everything within it as theirs, just as Sheep did here with planking down his New Sheepsta right in the middle of South Sheepsta, which, regardless of the legality of the situation, was certainly not under his ownership at the time.

Giovanni Wine · April 16, 2003, 09:18

Sorry if I intervene but:

The court was called on deciding if Alecrast and Bulbagarden taking over of Sheepsta island was legal, not if New Sheepsta proclaiming itself independent was legal.

Those are two very different things, both related to Sheepsta, but with many differences.

If Alecrast feels the need of a new court ruling over the legality of the existance of New Sheepsta, than it should ask for a new trial.

Saluti

Jack_www · April 16, 2003, 18:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic

Then I believe the scope of the trial was flawed, and that the matter should be looked into further. Otherwise, you're basically stating that anyone could, for example, start a "New Centralis" nation, plank it in the middle of Centralis, and claim everything within it as theirs, just as Sheep did here with planking down his New Sheepsta right in the middle of South Sheepsta, which, regardless of the legality of the situation, was certainly not under his ownership at the time.

It was your own failer to bring this up during the trail, now you cant do anything about it. New Sheepsta has ever legal right to be a sovern nation as any other nation in Apolyton.

Archaic · April 17, 2003, 05:59

This trial was "Who should control North/South Sheepsta?", yes? Not "Should Alecrast/Bulbagarden control North/South Sheepsta?". The legality of New Sheepsta is most certainly a part of that issue, and if you'll bother going back to GT's first post, we raised that issue, in RP terms. You never replied to that part of our arguement I noted.

Drogue · April 17, 2003, 16:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
This trial was "Who should control North/South Sheepsta?", yes? Not "Should Alecrast/Bulbagarden control North/South Sheepsta?". The legality of New Sheepsta is most certainly a part of that issue.

I disagree. Who should control North/South Sheepsta has nothing to do with the legitimacy of a different nation. New Sheepsta is a seperate issue. We did not call into question the legitimacy of Alecrast rule, simple it's actions concerning North/South Sheepsta. If you wish to bring up a question on the legitimacy of New Sheepsta, then you may, but it was started as a seperate nation. It may be in the boundaries of Old Sheepsta, but he had followers who joined him in creating a new nation.